Licence to Kill - Is it really that "underrated"?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    LTK rocks so hard, diamonds seem soft.

    That should have been the film's tagline! Epic! \m/
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    chrisisall wrote:
    LTK rocks so hard, diamonds seem soft.

    That should have been the film's tagline! Epic! \m/

    (c) 2013 chrisisall all rights reserved.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I do think this film is underrated, as it's a damn good Bond film. It's better than anything that has followed IMO, and it does rank with the best of the Moore efforts, and even with it's illustrious predecessor, so I think yes its underrated, as not everyone can be rallied to quite sing it's praises.

    LTK does seem to be the low-budget Bond, but it's big-budget enough. It works just fine.
    Maybe a little Miami Vice-ish, but there is enough that is distinctly Bond about it, that it still works as an authentic Bond film.
    All told it's a darn good Bond film. It's one that I do like to re-visit. And the dishing out of all the Fleming stuff from LALD is a nice bonus along with the nod to The Hildebrand Rarity.
    The battle at Krest's warehouse, does very nice homage to Bond's battle with the Robber in Fleming's LALD. Killifer effectively ends up subbing for the Robber.
    And the girls are top-notch Bond girls, both of them. The best, IMO, of the previous Leiters is back too and fittingly the one from LALD.
    LTK has probably grown on me more than any other Bond-film. Despite not bowling me over when it was first released, it does get better with each viewing.
    I think Craig should really study Dalt's performance in this film. ie if Craig can't bring himself to do a full swagger, Connery/Moore type Bond-on-mission film - if he needs some character nuance, then why not go for something more like what Dalts does with Bond in LTK. ie Dalts is always recognizable as Bond, even when he gets humbled as he does in this film. Dalts doesn't dwell. He soldiers on.
  • Its the most overrated underrated movie in the series next to OHMSS
  • Posts: 11,189
    I seem to recall a tidbit of a recent interview where Dalton held LTK in a relatively higher regard than he did 20 years ago. Satisfied with it, if not quite a fan of it.[
  • Posts: 169
    I'd like LTK a hell of a lot better if it didn't have the goofy comedy bits with Q or any scenes featuring Wayne Newton. The best thing about it was Dalton's angry, motivated, rogue Bond. On the whole, I think it's underrated by critics at large and a bit overrated by Dalton fanatics.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Just saw this review of LTK. Thought it was good to see a British perspective:



    My personal uncertainties aside this is an excellent well balanced review IMO
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 6,396
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Just saw this review of LTK. Thought it was good to see a British perspective:



    My personal uncertainties aside this is an excellent well balanced review IMO

    It doesn't help when the reviewer gets key information wrong.

    "generally Bond films are released in the winter"

    This is only true of those films released after LTK. The vast majority of Bond films up to that point were always released in the summer. For a winter release, I think you have to go all the way back to DAF in '71.

    EON only moved the subsequent release dates to October/November because of the poor return LTK made at the U.S. box office.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,189
    True

    I will now knock down a point for that haha!
  • Posts: 386
    One of the best Bonds. I have it comfortably in my top ten.

    The action sequence on Krest's vessel is possibly the best of its kind in the entire series.

    A tough, gritty Bond movie that doesn't exactly lack for style or wish fulfilment either. I mean, who wouldn't want to land in an exotic casino with five mil to spend?

    Curiously, my main gripe is somewhat petty - I don't like how Bond tries to get rid of Q and the Carey Lowell character like 73 times. Talk about narrative redundancy!

  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    That's one issue I have with LTK. The supporting cast is very hit-and-miss. The good are great but the bad are pretty awful. I too have gone off all the women in that film.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    BAIN123 wrote:
    It's weird, I'd always thought LTK was one of the better films of the series - until recently. In my "Bondathon" I watched OHMSS and LTK virtually back-to-back and couldn't help but feel a little disappointed by the latter so soon after watching the former. Where OHMSS felt imaginative, glossy and very English (a.l.a. Fleming), Kill had a very "hard" quality to it. The tone of the film is basically "Bond's mad and he's going to get even" and the setting of the Florida Keys, the cigar chomping FBI agents and the out-of-place dialogue ("I don't like it, you can finger me") don't strike me as appearing in a Fleming book.

    Here is an interesting review I found of Kill which isn't so much critical of Dalton as the producers and writing:
    http://n007.thegoldeneye.com/ltk-review.html

    This quote from the review just about sums up how ill judged this film is

    "John Glen manages to stage some exciting stunts with the Kenworth trucks7, but the climactic showdown between Bond and Sanchez is over too quickly—somehow we expect an intense fight scene such as the one with Bond and Grant in From Russia with Love. As it is, the rushed ending suggests that not a whole lot of thought went into this showdown between hero and villain because John Glen was too excited to film explosions in the desert."

    The whole review is a scathingly good critique of the film
  • Posts: 11,189
    @LeonardPine. Has your negative experience of LTK always been as such?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited January 2017 Posts: 4,007
    Pretty much, @BAIN123

    I found the film a thundering disappointment when I saw it way back in 1989. I had such high hopes for it after the excellent TLD, and was hoping for a real step up for the series with a more serious and grounded approach.

    What I got was a lame revenge story, abysmal dialogue and Timothy Dalton horribly overacting.

    I tried to like it, I really did, but there's just too much wrong with it in my eyes.

    I do like Carey Lowell in the film and the PTS isn't bad, but that's about it.

    I think the expectations I had for it just made the disappointment even worse.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    See I've gone off Carey Lowel. She seems to overact like mad at times ("you took the words right outta my mouth").

    ...and I agree about some of the dialogue too. The one I dislike the most is:

    "You know we...we have laws in this country too"
    "do you have a law against what they did to Leiter"


    Um...yes we do. Very cheesy line.
  • Posts: 15,124
    I often feel that LTK is a generic action movie with Bond having a looong cameo in it.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    LTK is nowhere as underated as it used to be especially here.

    I loved it when it was released and remember going to see it several times, I think at the time I thought it one of my all time favourites and better than TLD.

    Although over time its not aged well and the goofy elements jar terribly with the so called gritty edge, lets be a hard edged thriller or a goofy adventure, you can't have both.

    Having Desmond's Q turn up with that bag of gadgets is one of the most ill judged moments of the series, also that broom with the radio in is embarassing.

    LTK certainly has its moments but due to it's wildey uneven tone it's predecessor is quite comfortably a better Bond film and considerably more even film.

    Dalton is dealling with a film that was rewritten for him but compared to the one tailored for his Bond TLD feels more like the genuine product whereas LTK feels like a mish mash of what was going on at the time as well as trying to do a hard edged Fleming entry that can't quite give up the tick the box moments.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    I think generally it gets the credit it deserves, but also some legitimate criticism. I like it a lot but don't love it. I like the tougher, grittier Bond, which is a preview of sorts of the Craig era. Davi is an excellent villain and there are a lot of great moments and action.
    Unfortunately it also has a TV movie look to it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    TLD is my favourite Bond. LTK is my second. It's all about Dalton.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Davi makes the film. Subtract him, the end result's a mess.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think generally it gets the credit it deserves, but also some legitimate criticism. I like it a lot but don't love it. I like the tougher, grittier Bond, which is a preview of sorts of the Craig era. Davi is an excellent villain and there are a lot of great moments and action.
    Unfortunately it also has a TV movie look to it.

    This is what I currently think too.

    Something about the set-up particularly doesn't quite work, despite the nods to Fleming.

    @Shardlake. I understand that they needed to maybe lighten the mood a bit and bring in Q but I keep thinking of Q's comment in TB ("I find this business of equipping you in the field, on the run as it were, highly irregular"). Now he's popping by to see how Bond is doing.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Is it only me or did they cram nods to Fleming to turn what is a very common 80s action movie (in themes and look) into a Bond movie? I always feel that Bond is out of place.
  • Posts: 1,009
    I like it for the very same reason many people do not: It puts Bond in Cannon Films-like fare. And, man, I love them.

    It's just this simple for me.
  • I enjoyed it, not top 10, but a standout for me. Its weird, as I kid I didn't really like it because I felt it was too dark. But as I got older and much more mature I enjoy it, and can certainly sit through it again and be entertained by it. Is it me, or does anybody else think the film doesn't look as polished and elegant as other enteries?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Goldeneye was and is far better than either of Dalton's films. In fact I was watching TLD yesterday and turned it off just after the funfair section.

    LTK is far better than middle of the road GE. Dalton is Flemings character incarnate and the darker tone reflects the spirit of the novels. As a follow up to LTK, GE was a big disappointment to me.....and it got worse untill Daniel Craig saved the day in CR.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    For GoldenEye's faults it does have a better overall supporting cast to LTK, which is very hit-and-miss.

    I've already said I like aspects of LTK but the relationship between Bond and Della/Felix is not that convincing.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2017 Posts: 5,131
    I like the Bond, Della and Felix element. Bond is very close to Felix as in the books. I also love the Tracy reference. I love LTK, but don't think of GE as anything but mediocre. I much prefer the LTK cast too. Davy and Del Toro are excellent. Soto is one of the sexist Bond girls and Heddison is a good Felix Leiter. I also like the use of Milton Krest and a traditional male M.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Davi, Del Toro and Zarabe are all excellent but the rest are so-so to bad. Soto nay be sexy to look at but she's a poor actress and Lowell isn't much better.

    The Felix and Della stuff doesn't quite work, certainly during the wedding stuff which feels cheesy and forced. Plus Pracilla Barnes really isn't that great an actress either and doesn't do a lot in the film to make me care for her.

    Thirdly, the relationship between Bond and Felix doesn't work either as, in the previous film, the scene with the two together suggests they haven't seen each-other for ages so I wouldn't call it a close relationship.

    Heddison is sometimes good and has a likeability about him, but overacts at times (the moment when he comes to after Bond finds him).

    I like the Tracey reference too, probably one of the best moments in the film.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I'm just going to agree to disagree on this one. :)
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I'm just going to agree to disagree on this one. :)

    Yeah, we'll do that.

    Like I said, I do like LTK but I don't think the personal relationships that the film is trying to convey quite have the impact they are meant to. I used to think otherwise but changed my view. That's not exclusive to Kill though to be fair.
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