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If Greece will leave the Euro on Sunday, will this open a Pandora's Box?

13

Comments

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I am sure Brussels loves you, Gustav.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I am sure Brussels loves you, Gustav.

    What's THAT supposed to mean @Thunderfinger??
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I mean they love you back.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    It has become a farce full stop. I just really feel for the vulnerable in this mess of a situation.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    I think what has been decided today, a "aGreekment", could make the EU and the Euro Zone stronger.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Or cause even more friction between Athens and Berlin?
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited July 2015 Posts: 11,119
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Or cause even more friction between Athens and Berlin?

    It's not just friction between Athens and Berlin @RogueAgent.

    There was friction between Athens only on one hand, and many other countries on the other side: Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ireland, Portugal and Spain. All these countries were basically demanding a 'Grexit' on Saturday and Sunday. Because don't forget that many of these democracies are poor as well (Slovenia, Lithuania, Slovakia), and despite that fact they gave billions of money to the bailout/austerity packages.

    Also, I'm quite tired of the fact that in Athens Germany is seen as 'the big villain' all the time. Luckily, many Greek people actually realized how many Europeans were against further bailouts and wanted Greece to leave the EU alltogether.

    Basically, the only countries who supported Greece in this matter were: Italy, France and Cyprus. Belgium and Malta had an in-between opinion about all this.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    I think the EU is in a way is in danger of becoming a kind of dictatorship. You make an excellent point above to show this yet the EU had to have its way. I am all for European cooperation especially in such a dangerous world, but I have to say I am not in favour of the single currency. As we can see the distribution of wealth is startling!
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    I think the EU is in a way is in danger of becoming a kind of dictatorship. You make an excellent point above to show this yet the EU had to have its way. I am all for European cooperation especially in such a dangerous world, but I have to say I am not in favour of the single currency. As we can see the distribution of wealth is startling!

    The European Parliament and the European Commission is given a mandate every four years, during the European elections. I do agree that the EU should become more democratic. Right now the EU is a rather vague institution. EU-politicians like Tusk, Juncker and Dijsselbloem need to do some serious ground campaiging. Appearing in TV-shows, talking with people on the streets everywhere in Europe. THAT'S how you build up democracy. And I'm certain it will happen.

    What I don't want the EU to become....is a 'China' or a 'Russia'. Because those countries ARE dictatorships:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33502955

    Luckily, in the EU journalists and lawyers are not caught and put in prison without a process.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    True! Well one can only hope, but I guess we will have to wait and see?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    What was the referendum about again? That leftist government sold their people down the river. Why bother?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2015 Posts: 15,718
    I saw an article on the BBC where the writer of said article was rejoicing that Greece was off the hook after it paid the sum that was due to the IMF. I'm sorry, but what on earth is that guy smoking? The only reason Greece was able to pay was with the help of the huge loan they received last week. Once that loan is all used up, Greece will need another 80 billion euros or so to pay off the next deadlines that will come in 6 months time. And once that loan is gone too, Greece will then need what will be a 5th bailout plan, and so on.

    Greece should have had it's debt written off, and/or be temporally removed from the Euro Zone at the start of the crisis 7 years ago. What would have been a huge (but short) blow to everyone then, will now be catastrophic now for Greece in it's current situation. And the more Merkel and Francois Hollande wait to aknowledge this is the only solution to this mess, the more catastrophic the solution will turn out to be.

    Monsieur and Madame Non (Hollande and Merkel) are basicly kicking the can as far as possible, not seeing they are making matters worse with their indecision.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    They are in the pockets of the bankers. Germany has never paid a single euro on their enormous debt themselves and probably never will. What about the US? A trillion dollars or so worth of debt. I tell you, this is all a part of a plan.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2015 Posts: 18,281
    Predictably Greece (despite all the naysayers) have remained in the Euro Currency. It had the chance to reclaim its sovereignty from the EU behemoth but the Eurocrats could not allow that to happen otherwise their finely wrought dream of fiscal and economic union would be shattered by a poor relation. I say all this and I actually like Greece and stand up for it. Parliamentary sovereignty is important to me, as is the democratic right of the Greek peoples to give their verdict in a referendum.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @Thunderfinger based on what I can gather, the US debt is currently at around 18 trillion $, and has been growing at a steady rate of 2 billion $ a day for the last 3 years.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    @Thunderfinger based on what I can gather, the US debt is currently at around 18 trillion $, and has been growing at a steady rate of 2 billion $ a day for the last 3 years.

    Yes, thanks for that. My info is a few years old. Good thing they are not in the Euro zone. Not that it matters.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2015 Posts: 15,718
    France is at 2 trillion euros of debt I believe, but only half the amount of GDP % as Greece. It broke on the news a few weeks ago that France went up 5% of it's GDP in debt in the last 6 months alone. Come a few years and we'll be like Greece today, only with 10 times the amount of debt. Wonder how much bailout we will need, and will Germany be willing to say yes to more money thrown out the window?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Time to close down those central banks. They are a gigantic hoax. Too bad the national lawmakers answer to them like a whore answers to her pimp.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    France is at 2 trillion euros of debt I believe, but only half the amount of GDP % as Greece. It broke on the news a few weeks ago that France went up 5% of it's GDP in debt in the last 6 months alone. Come a few years and we'll be like Greece today, only with 10 times the amount of debt. Wonder how much bailout we will need, and will Germany be willing to say yes to more money thrown out the window?

    Well in that case hopefully the end of this failed fiscal union of the EU is in sight.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Bad news for you @Thunderfinger, but Hollande wrote a tribune this week in a newspaper saying we need 'more' Europe. He gave the idea of an Eurozone government. So I guess this mean that this new institution, most likely controlled by Germany and France, will be able to dictate every single economical decision to every country in the Euro Zone. Scary thought.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    Bad news for you @Thunderfinger, but Hollande wrote a tribune this week in a newspaper saying we need 'more' Europe. He gave the idea of an Eurozone government. So I guess this mean that this new institution, most likely controlled by Germany and France, will be able to dictate every single economical decision to every country in the Euro Zone. Scary thought.

    One thing is certain - it will have nothing to do with any of the tenets of democracy or parliamentary sovereignty. These ideals are anathema to the EU project and always have been. Those who lost the last war are now dictating to us. I hope the UK votes to exit this farce of a club in 2017.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yes, that is the whole point. More supranational sovereignty, it has been in the cards for half a century. These people are not stupid.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2015 Posts: 15,718
    It really feels like Germany and Brussels basically took complete and total control of Greece without having to fire a single shot. All was carried out behind closed doors over a brandy and a cigar.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    And thorough media brainwashing.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2015 Posts: 18,281
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    It really feels like Germany and Brussels basically took complete and total control of Greece without having to fire a single shot. All was carried out behind closed doors over a brandy and a cigar.

    We should remember that Mussolini had a much harder time when he tried to invade Greece in the autumn of 1940. Hitler had to bail him out back then in early 1941, delaying Operation Barbarossa by some crucial months. The Greeks were such ferocious fighters they pushed the Italians back into Albania. One of the reasons why I'll always love Greece even if their current government did not keep their word.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    It really feels like Germany and Brussels basically took complete and total control of Greece without having to fire a single shot. All was carried out behind closed doors over a brandy and a cigar.
    Maybe Elliot Carver was right ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Sark wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    It really feels like Germany and Brussels basically took complete and total control of Greece without having to fire a single shot. All was carried out behind closed doors over a brandy and a cigar.
    Maybe Elliot Carver was right ;)

    Very right I would imagine looking at the world today in 2015!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And thorough media brainwashing.

    Absolutely agreed. The agricultural world in France is in riot since yesterday because they are being chocked out by unfair low prices from supermarkets, so they aren't making any profit.

    And, evidently, all the newspapers and tv channels, are not saying a single word that Hollande is pushing for the TAFTA treaty, which will allow USA to literally flood Europe with their meat products, thus the fate of our farmers will be dead and buried. They'll never be able to compete with the low prices of the US.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And thorough media brainwashing.

    Absolutely agreed. The agricultural world in France is in riot since yesterday because they are being chocked out by unfair low prices from supermarkets, so they aren't making any profit.

    And, evidently, all the newspapers and tv channels, are not saying a single word that Hollande is pushing for the TAFTA treaty, which will allow USA to literally flood Europe with their meat products, thus the fate of our farmers will be dead and buried. They'll never be able to compete with the low prices of the US.

    That sounds all too familiar with what is happening in the UK. Nice to see the European Superstate/United States of Europe look after the Member States it is composed of so very well! 8-|
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited July 2015 Posts: 45,489
    Follow the money. The BIS owns all central banks on the planet. What do you think really happened in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya? Or Syria as we speak.

    NATO is in on it. They could take out the IS any time they wanted, but that is not convenient. Not yet.
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