Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited January 2022 Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really, but as I said I'm not all that interested in it anyway so maybe I'm not the right one to judge. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    I know Mendes gets a lot of flak these days for whatever reason, but I think the way he introduced Whishaw's Q and then used him in the film from there on was pretty much spot on. The Earl Grey and slippers line told me everything I needed to know about this guy.

    I always forget that scene in M's house in OHMSS. That's a fair point. Although I always saw those scenes more as an opportunity to have Bond show off his snobbery, so maybe that's where my focus was. When Bond turns up to Q's apartment in NTTD, it would have been nice to see him make a snarky judgment on Q's choice of wine - maybe throw out a few alternatives for a cosy night in or something and then guzzling the bottle anyway! :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    Okay.. but if you're saying you don't like characters being expanded but also that it didn't expand his character, I'm not sure what the issue is?
    I don't think it slows the film down: they discuss the plot pretty much immediately. The idea of doing it out of the office is because Bond isn't working for M or MI6 at the time and the setting gives us a visual illustration of that. There's a joke about a cat and Bond does the very Bond thing of nicking Q's wine. These films have always carried character gags through them.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited January 2022 Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    Okay.. but if you're saying you don't like characters being expanded but also that it didn't expand his character, I'm not sure what the issue is?

    It renders the entire endeavor fundamentally redundant then. It attempts to do something that I don't have much interest in it doing and then doesn't even manage to do it well.
    mtm wrote: »
    The idea of doing it out of the office is because Bond isn't working for M or MI6 at the time and the setting gives us a visual illustration of that. There's a joke about a cat and Bond does the very Bond thing of nicking Q's wine. These films have always carried character gags through them.

    Those are hardly comparable examples of snobbery like the ones that were in the previous films - like the M scene you cited - though.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2022 Posts: 16,308
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    Okay.. but if you're saying you don't like characters being expanded but also that it didn't expand his character, I'm not sure what the issue is?

    It renders the entire endeavor fundamentally redundant then. It attempts to do something that I don't have much interest in it doing and then doesn't even manage to do it well.

    I'm not sure why you think it is trying to expand his character then. It's a few character jokes and then hard plot. It's a sitcom scene, basically: the guy from work interrupts a romantic dinner.
    What would you want instead of this? And which still tells the story that Bond is getting help from his old MI6 friends even though he doesn't work there any more?
    mtm wrote: »
    The idea of doing it out of the office is because Bond isn't working for M or MI6 at the time and the setting gives us a visual illustration of that. There's a joke about a cat and Bond does the very Bond thing of nicking Q's wine. These films have always carried character gags through them.

    Those are hardly comparable examples of snobbery like the ones that were in the previous films - like the M scene you cited - though.

    I guess... were they trying to be that? Is snobbery the only gag that Bond does? I'm not sure what criteria you're using to analyse this scene. They're still okay gags, aren't they?
    I think they got bigger laughs than the butterfly one did! :)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    Okay.. but if you're saying you don't like characters being expanded but also that it didn't expand his character, I'm not sure what the issue is?

    It renders the entire endeavor fundamentally redundant then. It attempts to do something that I don't have much interest in it doing and then doesn't even manage to do it well.

    I'm not sure why you think it is trying to expand his character then. It's a few character jokes and then hard plot. It's a sitcom scene, basically: the guy from work interrupts a romantic dinner.
    What would you want instead of this? And which still tells the story that Bond is getting help from his old MI6 friends even though he doesn't work there any more?

    Well the spark of this conversation was about Whishaw being disappointed the scene didn't go any further than him having a boyfriend. How does Q having a boyfriend not expand his character?
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess... were they trying to be that? Is snobbery the only gag that Bond does? I'm not sure what criteria you're using to analyse this scene. They're still okay gags, aren't they?
    I think they got bigger laughs than the butterfly one did! :)

    The dry snobbery is the kind of humour that Bond does best, for me. I wasn't around in the late 60s to disprove your laughter claim though, unfortunately! Again, it's just a matter of taste. :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2022 Posts: 16,308
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd say Whishaw was a huge name beforehand, I doubt most cinemagoers in the US would have known him in 2012. He had an excellent career already, but then someone like Bernard Lee wasn't exactly new to films when the Bond series started (Dr No appears to have been his 65th film!).

    Whishaw was pretty well known in the UK though, I think. Maybe not a superstar, by any means, but a respected dramatic actor. He'd even killed a future James Bond! :) I'd seen him in quite a few things before Skyfall came around. Granted, they were mostly supporting roles.

    I think if we're saying they shouldn't employ respected dramatic actors then the films are going to go downhill fast! :D

    Well that's fine: but for me, expanding characters that I don't have much interest in seeing expanded is another way for them to go downhill! So it's a tough one to balance.

    Did you think Q got a huge amount of character development in this one then? It didn't seem to be massively about him to me, he just had a bit of comedy business and it added some variety to what would have been another lab scene.
    I guess we didn't need to see M's house and that he likes butterfly collecting in OHMSS, but it seemed brief enough.

    No, I don't think it added much to the character really. But that's also kind of part of the problem too. Most of it is down to the writing. It's not explored enough, objectively, to make any real impact nor is it brief enough that it doesn't slow the film down. But again, I'm not saying these creative choices are wrong because I know that there will be plenty of people out there who absolutely do enjoy getting glimpses of all these character's private lives.

    Okay.. but if you're saying you don't like characters being expanded but also that it didn't expand his character, I'm not sure what the issue is?

    It renders the entire endeavor fundamentally redundant then. It attempts to do something that I don't have much interest in it doing and then doesn't even manage to do it well.

    I'm not sure why you think it is trying to expand his character then. It's a few character jokes and then hard plot. It's a sitcom scene, basically: the guy from work interrupts a romantic dinner.
    What would you want instead of this? And which still tells the story that Bond is getting help from his old MI6 friends even though he doesn't work there any more?

    Well the spark of this conversation was about Whishaw being disappointed the scene didn't go any further than him having a boyfriend. How does Q having a boyfriend not expand his character?

    About as much as him liking Earl Grey or cats, I'd say. Less so, actually- having a romantic interest is normal for pretty much every grown adult on Earth. It means he's a vaguely normal person. It's not exactly a hugely surprising character expansion to discover he's an average adult.
    I'd say M being shown to have a butler is much bigger expansion of his character because it's fairly unusual.
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess... were they trying to be that? Is snobbery the only gag that Bond does? I'm not sure what criteria you're using to analyse this scene. They're still okay gags, aren't they?
    I think they got bigger laughs than the butterfly one did! :)

    The dry snobbery is the kind of humour that Bond does best, for me. I wasn't around in the late 60s to disprove your laughter claim though, unfortunately! Again, it's just a matter of taste. :)

    Okay, I like the snobbery, especially when it's silly and he knows the temperature of Saké, but I like the other jokes he can do too. Like amusing himself by mildly victimising Q and spoiling his evening, treating him like a little brother. It's a nice little expansion of his character and their relationship too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,171
    Christ folks, it’s just a bloody single line, who gives a toss?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    Christ folks, it’s just a bloody single line, who gives a toss?

    We're just having a friendly chat about Bond on a Bond forum.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    mtm wrote: »
    About as much as him liking Earl Grey or cats, I'd say. Less so, actually- having a romantic interest is normal for pretty much every grown adult on Earth. It means he's a vaguely normal person. Is that supposed to be an expansion of his character?
    I'd say M being shown to have a butler is much bigger expansion of his character.

    I wouldn't say less so, no. More so, absolutely. "I like tea" is not really on the same level as me giving details about my love life as far as I'm concerned. But then again, I didn't find the cats thing particularly funny, either. As I said before, I think they nailed it in SF.
    mtm wrote: »
    Okay, I like the snobbery, especially when it's silly and he knows the temperature of Saké, but I like the other jokes he can do too. Like amusing himself by mildly victimising Q and spoiling his evening, treating him like a little brother. It's a nice little expansion of his character and their relationship too.

    Well hey, I'm glad you enjoyed it at least. You're not alone in it, either! :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    mtm wrote: »
    About as much as him liking Earl Grey or cats, I'd say. Less so, actually- having a romantic interest is normal for pretty much every grown adult on Earth. It means he's a vaguely normal person. Is that supposed to be an expansion of his character?
    I'd say M being shown to have a butler is much bigger expansion of his character.

    I wouldn't say less so, no. More so, absolutely. "I like tea" is not really on the same level as me giving details about my love life as far as I'm concerned. But then again, I didn't find the cats thing particularly funny, either. As I said before, I think they nailed it in SF.

    Yeah, after the cats were mentioned I didn't think we needed to see them to ram the point home, but we got it anyway. A bit like I thought it was a bit odd to take Madeline's anecdote about the man coming to kill her dad and building a film out of it: sort of like the writers could only imagine things about these characters we already knew, but hey-ho, that's another issue.
    Did we get details about his love life other than he has one? I guess that he's cooking a dinner and doing it with Q-like precision is something of a character beat (in contrast I suppose Bond would always eat out), but other than that there's not a lot there, and nothing that annoys me. I do think that the choice of Earl Grey was a pretty deliberate one designed to illustrate what kind of guy he is though. That he's dating tells me less about him: if we'd seen the guy then maybe we'd learn more.
    mtm wrote: »
    Okay, I like the snobbery, especially when it's silly and he knows the temperature of Saké, but I like the other jokes he can do too. Like amusing himself by mildly victimising Q and spoiling his evening, treating him like a little brother. It's a nice little expansion of his character and their relationship too.

    Well hey, I'm glad you enjoyed it at least. You're not alone in it, either! :)

    Cheers, I think it's a fun scene.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited January 2022 Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not the one complaining about the person in a Bond film! :))

    I’m not complaining about his work on the film, Jesus, please just stop replying like a broken record just for the sake of it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not the one complaining about the person in a Bond film! :))

    I’m not complaining about his work on the film, Jesus, please just stop replying like a broken record just for the sake of it.

    Ah but you can reply to me, gotcha ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Christ folks, it’s just a bloody single line, who gives a toss?

    tumblr_me4ol0rd5x1rvklyl.gif

    Sometimes you just get caught up in things after a long Monday...
  • Posts: 1,629
    OK, so, having met M and Q numerous times, and recently a C, when do we get to learn more about A, B, D-L, N-P, and R-Z ?
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not the one complaining about the person in a Bond film! :))

    I’m not complaining about his work on the film, Jesus, please just stop replying like a broken record just for the sake of it.

    Ah but you can reply to me, gotcha ;)

    As long as you keep twisting my words with automatically piloted replies, yes.
  • Posts: 1,629
    So, if I understand correctly, the debate has been distilled and comes out to this: "I know you are, but what am I ?"
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2022 Posts: 16,308
    Your guess is as good as mine :)

    But I guess we kind of met R: although Bond was clearly joking I remember Cleese's Q was called R in a few things- I'm sure he was called that in a video game, or in the marketing for it or something. I think his name on production paperwork was even Robert something.
  • Posts: 1,629
    Doh ! How could I forget that ?!? In the Gardner books, didn't Bond meet..ahem...a relative of Q ?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2022 Posts: 16,308
    Oh I don't know about relatives, I can't remember. There was 'Q'ute' (a gag which I'm never sure quite worked) who was the new Q, a hot lady, natch.
    I feel like Gardner dropped her quite quickly though as I can't remember a single book she appeared in. It's a touch naughty to have a character called Q at all in the books, really: Eon could probably tell them not to, but I guess it's a grey area.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,147
    Not to fan any embers that were about to die out, but wasn't Wishaw less concerned about expanding the character than he was about not wanting the idea of a gay Q to come across as a token or throwaway? Can't blame him for caring - none of us want a hack phoning it in, after all.
    Anyone know what happened to this scene when NTTD was shown in China? Did it escape the censors? Was 'he' redubbed as 'she'? If so, did Wishaw revoice it himself?
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I thought it was fine as a throwaway line, but I'm glad it wasn't explored much more beyond that. I'm not too bothered about any characters personal life within the world of Bond, the Moneypenny moment in Spectre line was nice but I don't need to know more than that, for example

    Out of all the actors I'd love to see Whishaw and Harris stay, because not only are they great actors but they're brilliant ambassadors for the series. Although I anticipate a complete clean slate with Bond #7
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,272
    I'm really looking forward to seeing new actors find fresh takes on the iconic characters of Bond, M, Moneypenny, and Q.

    Whatever you think of the Craig era, I'd think we'd all agree that it was emotionally exhausting! A refresh is welcome.
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    echo wrote: »
    Whatever you think of the Craig era, I'd think we'd all agree that it was emotionally exhausting! A refresh is welcome.

    I think for many of us is that it wasn't "emotional exhausting", so much as just emotionally tedious. For those of us that never bought into the melodrama it was more a matter of "come off it already". Even with the ones I enjoyed quite a bit, such as CR and SF, I never felt any real emotion when either Vesper or M died. I don't experience Bond films that way.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    I don't think Bond films are bad.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2022 Posts: 7,546
    I can certainly see why it's not everyone's bag, but the death of M did hit me emotionally, as it felt like a good resolution of the childhood trauma that made Bond. Again, it's easy to see why this isn't everyone's cup of tea in a Bond film, but they went for it, and I think they executed it well.

    Also (we were discussing the Spectre teaser in another thread), the Skyfall teaser with the word association, and then "Skyfall... done..." was so brilliant. A seemingly random title, and then seeing Bond's reaction to it, and then the final reveal in the film, I thought it was so brilliant. For me at least, I was dying to know what Skyfall meant.

    Vesper's death hit me more viscerally because it was very agonizing to watch her drown in that manner. Less sad, but more just shocking. Again, though, very effective IMO.
  • Posts: 2,161
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't think Bond films are bad.

    That was a typo. "Bond" films.
  • Posts: 2,161
    The only death to really throw me for a loop during the Craig Era was Severine's. That both shocked and disturbed me. Very effective.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    My favourite scene of the Craig era.
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    My favourite scene of the Craig era.

    I couldn't even say I liked it at first, it was so unexpected. But I certainly appreciate it in retrospect. And though I understand the argument as to why, I still do not entirely buy into Bond's response.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    Birdleson wrote: »
    My favourite scene of the Craig era.

    I couldn't even say I liked it at first, it was so unexpected. But I certainly appreciate it in retrospect. And though I understand the argument as to why, I still do not entirely buy into Bond's response.

    When I say it's my favourite, it's not just Severine (it doesn't really hinge on that moment at all really), it's from when they go outside into the courtyard up until the helicopters.

    I had no trouble with Bond's response from the first viewing.
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