Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2022 Posts: 16,383
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But then we would be pushing a diversirty agenda.

    Yep, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    I only half agree with that statement, @mtm. Bond films, at least to me, are pure entertainment. Oliver Stone pushing an agenda? Sure. But not the Bonds, or at least not in my opinion. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with organically bringing diversity in a Bond, as we have seen in the previous couple of films, all directed by men I might add. All I am saying is that as long as it happens without things being too obviously engineered, I don't care. But if the film is designed to in-your-face promote a diversity project, I am not so cool with that. That is not what this series was made for, or so I think.

    Then I think with respect, you're approaching it with the wrong mindset. They've always been 'pushing the agenda' of being British, of being a supercool rich man, of reducing the exposure to tobacco products to kids etc. But when you've decided to use words like 'engineered' and 'agenda' then you're kind of just winding yourself up and no-one else, because you'll never be able to unsee things in that way. You're approaching everything from your own agenda, which is to start from the position of hostility.
    I'm not sure what 'in-your-face diversity project' is. They hired a female writer for the last one (just as they did for the very first movie, incidentally), have been making the roles for the women a bit more solid recently and that was all fine in terms of increasing diversity... at what point does it become 'in your face'?
    They are entertainment but they're also being beamed directly into millions of peoples' minds all around the world, and there is responsibility with that power.

    There's really no such thing as 'organically bringing diversity' because these people are often from minorities- which means there's fewer of them. So you have to decide to get them. Does anyone think De Amas or Lynch or Waller Bridge were terrible choices who made the film worse? Because you don't go through an open audition process for actors and actresses and just organically discover a beautiful actress of Cuban descent. It just so happens that a lot of people would say she was the best person for the job, though.

    I doubt that Mendes has thought through his suggestion thoroughly to this extent, and I doubt it's a staunch position which is definitely right or wrong, but I think there are probably some benefits to the idea. Not least, just on the more cynical side of things, of publicity.
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I don't really care who directs Bond 26, provided they get what Bond is.
    Rewatching NTTD, I fear some of the creatives didn't understand the essence of James Bond

    Agreed, I think Fukunaga didn't really get the feel of Bond.
  • Posts: 4,615
    @mtm re your last point, I agree. You can have the best director on the plannet but if they don't "get" Bond, then the magic won't happen. We have seen this with other franchises in recent years.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    patb wrote: »
    @mtm re your last point, I agree. You can have the best director on the plannet but if they don't "get" Bond, then the magic won't happen. We have seen this with other franchises in recent years.

    Can you name some examples, please? Both directors and franchises. I’m curious what everyone thinks.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    patb wrote: »
    @mtm re your last point, I agree. You can have the best director on the plannet but if they don't "get" Bond, then the magic won't happen. We have seen this with other franchises in recent years.

    Yeah, and I know this is subjective, but even though Spectre is perhaps not the best film in the series, it still feels more 'Bond' to me than QoS or NTTD.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    It’s funny that at no point ever has a person been hired for a job “solely” based on their skills and aptitude (otherwise we wouldn’t need interviews, just resumes), but the concept is always being protected tooth and nail anytime a woman is suggested for a job predominantly held by a man.

    Similarly with directors for films, box office draw is always going to be more important than finding a director who "perfectly gets Bond", or who absolutely most apt for the job.
  • Risico007 wrote: »
    It’s amazing how a fan trailer can warm me to an actor I am now 100% in Norton camp


    Voice is too feminine, so are his looks.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    mtm wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    @mtm re your last point, I agree. You can have the best director on the plannet but if they don't "get" Bond, then the magic won't happen. We have seen this with other franchises in recent years.

    Yeah, and I know this is subjective, but even though Spectre is perhaps not the best film in the series, it still feels more 'Bond' to me than QoS or NTTD.

    100% agree on this, espicially in comparison with NTTD, in some moments NTTD feels like a film on it's own that just happens to feature James Bond
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @mtm I simply wouldn't want to be the woman hired for being a woman rather than for being a talented director in whom the producers have confidence. Nothing more.
    I find it regrettable that you had to bring a word like "hostility" to our little discussion because now I don't feel like adding anything to it anymore.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2022 Posts: 16,383
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @mtm I simply wouldn't want to be the woman hired for being a woman rather than for being a talented director in whom the producers have confidence. Nothing more.

    Sure, but as we're all saying, no-one gets hired purely because they're the best, there are always many other different factors. Pierce Brosnan didn't do Living Daylights even though they picked him! :)
    And no-one is suggesting hiring anyone without talent that the producers have faith in. But there are lots of talented directors around and there isn't just one single 'best' for the job.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I find it regrettable that you had to bring a word like "hostility" to our little discussion because now I don't feel like adding anything to it anymore.

    Oh I'm genuinely sorry, I wasn't trying to annoy you. I didn't think it was a particularly emotive or loaded word, it just describes your position on the idea doesn't it? You don't like it; you're in opposition to it. It doesn't really mean anything other than that, not to me anyway.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2022 Posts: 16,383
    Risico007 wrote: »
    It’s amazing how a fan trailer can warm me to an actor I am now 100% in Norton camp


    Voice is too feminine, so are his looks.

    You are welcome to the girls you pick to go out with :P
    It’s funny that at no point ever has a person been hired for a job “solely” based on their skills and aptitude (otherwise we wouldn’t need interviews, just resumes), but the concept is always being protected tooth and nail anytime a woman is suggested for a job predominantly held by a man.

    Similarly with directors for films, box office draw is always going to be more important than finding a director who "perfectly gets Bond", or who absolutely most apt for the job.

    I think if you're a white man it's very easy to believe that there's a level playing field where everything is given on merit, but it's not really true and people are trying to change it. And Eon are more high profile than most in terms of their employment decisions, they don't exist in a vacuum of pure entertainment. And in fact they may find more of a future by continuing to be progressive, because the character of Bond does represent a problem to some.

    Jordo007 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    @mtm re your last point, I agree. You can have the best director on the plannet but if they don't "get" Bond, then the magic won't happen. We have seen this with other franchises in recent years.

    Yeah, and I know this is subjective, but even though Spectre is perhaps not the best film in the series, it still feels more 'Bond' to me than QoS or NTTD.

    100% agree on this, espicially in comparison with NTTD, in some moments NTTD feels like a film on it's own that just happens to feature James Bond

    Yeah, and maybe there is an argument that a Bond director should be British; perhaps you need that sense of humour, having grown up with Roger on the telly on bank holidays etc.
    I'd like to think not, but who knows.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited September 2022 Posts: 1,711
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But then we would be pushing a diversirty agenda.

    Yep, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    I only half agree with that statement, @mtm. Bond films, at least to me, are pure entertainment. Oliver Stone pushing an agenda? Sure. But not the Bonds, or at least not in my opinion. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with organically bringing diversity in a Bond, as we have seen in the previous couple of films, all directed by men I might add. All I am saying is that as long as it happens without things being too obviously engineered, I don't care. But if the film is designed to in-your-face promote a diversity project, I am not so cool with that. That is not what this series was made for, or so I think.

    I think for some, diversity isn't enough, 'obvious engineering' is actually of equal importance: a mission statement ahead of time or something. It's insufficient for the Bond series to be about a British secret agent (and that happens to be appropriately diverse), it should be a series that is actually about showcasing the various types of humans that exist (and is also about a British secret agent).

    I mean, as majorities of people become completely comfortable with all types of people on the screen, one's virtue signalling opportunities can decline in equal measure, and that's no fun! Gotta parse it until you have conflict.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2022 Posts: 16,383
    That's a bit of a silly overreaction to the prospect of a woman getting a job.
  • edited September 2022 Posts: 784
    Sam Mendes is the prude non-alcoholic British twin of Dan Harmon.

    I want to see them in a remake of The Parent Trap.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    mtm wrote: »
    That's a bit of a silly overreaction to the prospect of a woman getting a job.

    Oh, I didn't and wouldn't react at all to the identity of any future Bond director.
  • Definitely with Darth on this one. I don't care what sex the director is. I think it is most important to hire someone who 'gets' Bond and if it's a woman, great! If not, fine.

    Instead of listening to other white men lecture on the minority experience, I'd rather hear from the minorities who are in those positions. Do they feel they are being excluded from opportunities? From the few I know in my field (a very predominantly male line of work), that has not been in the case. That said, I recognize my observation does not extrapolate to all fields of work and certainly isnt a substitute as a representation of my entire field of work.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Darlings, you can have it both ways.

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  • Posts: 12,466
    Ideally, no one at all would give a damn if a woman so happens to be chosen as director of the next Bond film. Alas, we live in a world where thousands will be raging and calling it “woke trash” before anything is even seen, while others will automatically consider it an improvement - all based on a quality someone can’t even control at birth…
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited September 2022 Posts: 9,509
    I love the idea of a female director.

    Shooting action sequences is a huge team effort under the vision of the director, the leadership of the stunt coordinator and the second unit, but having a woman’s gaze behind the camera? Potentially very seductive and romantic.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,208
    Female or male, I just want a great director who gets Bond. Back in the 90’s I remember thinking that Mimi Leder ( Peacemaker and Deep Impact) would have been up to the task.
  • edited September 2022 Posts: 784
    I think a female director would do a better job than Sam Mendes. She’d have better idea of what is cool and attractive than that dork.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    It's a nuanced topic. I think we basically all agree; a female director would be a wonderful choice if she's an excellent director who gets Bond.

    But no one is suggesting a female director would be great *instead* of an excellent director who gets Bond.

    And those of us who are saying, for argument's sake, that maybe a woman *should* direct Bond, it's not because of her chromosomes or her gadgets, and for me personally it isn't even because of a diversity push; it's because Director is an artistic (albeit ambiguous) job, and women by nature have a different experience of life than a man does, and could therefore bring that different perspective to Bond, and I think that would be interesting. As Mallory said, "for the sake of variety, might we actually *hear* from [the women]?"

    But of course I'm not saying a woman director *in lieu* of a good director, of course, there are excellent directors of all shapes and sizes.
  • Posts: 12,466
    peter wrote: »
    I love the idea of a female director.

    Shooting action sequences is a huge team effort under the vision of the director, the leadership of the stunt coordinator and the second unit, but having a woman’s gaze behind the camera? Potentially very seductive and romantic.

    I’d like to make sure I understand this correctly. Is this to say a man’s gaze can’t be “seductive and romantic?” That a woman’s is more likely to be?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    FoxRox wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I love the idea of a female director.

    Shooting action sequences is a huge team effort under the vision of the director, the leadership of the stunt coordinator and the second unit, but having a woman’s gaze behind the camera? Potentially very seductive and romantic.

    I’d like to make sure I understand this correctly. Is this to say a man’s gaze can’t be “seductive and romantic?” That a woman’s is more likely to be?

    See my post above, but I think all people are saying, is that women bring a different life experience to what is an artistic, expressive job, as a director.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I’d gladly welcome a female director, provided they had the resume + personality for the job. Much better that than a male who had no / bad resume and didn’t fit. What bothers me about all this is that it reinforces stereotypes, choosing a woman for the sake of her being a woman that is. Obviously, men and women are more likely than one another to go through life in different ways thanks to societal norms, but there’s never a guarantee of anything.

    For instance, a man can be as “feminine” as a woman, and a woman as “masculine” as a man, as people call it. Though it isn’t treated as seriously, a man can go through rape or domestic abuse as a woman can. Both men and women are victims of toxic masculinity. So on and so forth. I guess I just yearn for a day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities when it comes to things like this and everyone gets treated as an individual. Men and women both get unfairly chosen and disqualified for jobs because of their genders, and this is a significant barrier in equality.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’d gladly welcome a female director, provided they had the resume + personality for the job. Much better that than a male who had no / bad resume and didn’t fit. What bothers me about all this is that it reinforces stereotypes, choosing a woman for the sake of her being a woman that is. Obviously, men and women are more likely than one another to go through life in different ways thanks to societal norms, but there’s never a guarantee of anything.

    For instance, a man can be as “feminine” as a woman, and a woman as “masculine” as a man, as people call it. Though it isn’t treated as seriously, a man can go through rape or domestic abuse as a woman can. Both men and women are victims of toxic masculinity. So on and so forth. I guess I just yearn for a day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities when it comes to things like this and everyone gets treated as an individual. Men and women both get unfairly chosen and disqualified for jobs because of their genders, and this is a significant barrier in equality.

    I suppose, (and this is getting a bit off topic) but to continue to push that "both men and women have it tough" really undermines how significantly harder women have had it in society, I think.

    You are right, though, things like toxic masculinity hurt both men and women, and of course, we all yearn for this day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities etc etc, but unfortunately that isn't the reality of society right now. The pendulum has swung so far towards the men, that as part of the correction, it will have to swing hard the other direction.

    Bo Burnam said something great to this effect, it was something like, "it's unfair to expect the solution to unfairness to be perfect".
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Bo Burnam said something great to this effect, it was something like, "it's unfair to expect the solution to unfairness to be perfect".

    Oh I like that :)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Whatever his faults, I did like the casual diversity Fukunaga brought to NTTD. For one, if you placed an undercover agent in Jamaica, it makes sense for her to be black.

    And I think he did an admirable job in presenting more well-rounded female roles, and a gay character, than any other Bond film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    mtm wrote: »
    Bo Burnam said something great to this effect, it was something like, "it's unfair to expect the solution to unfairness to be perfect".

    Oh I like that :)

    Actually I'll try link that interview here if I can find it, I believe it was a director's roundtable with Burnam there (because he did Eighth Grade), as well as some old guard directors and one woman (IIRC). They get into some good discussion.

    EDIT: Writers, sorry.

    I think this is it, really recommend everyone give it a watch:
  • Posts: 12,466
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’d gladly welcome a female director, provided they had the resume + personality for the job. Much better that than a male who had no / bad resume and didn’t fit. What bothers me about all this is that it reinforces stereotypes, choosing a woman for the sake of her being a woman that is. Obviously, men and women are more likely than one another to go through life in different ways thanks to societal norms, but there’s never a guarantee of anything.

    For instance, a man can be as “feminine” as a woman, and a woman as “masculine” as a man, as people call it. Though it isn’t treated as seriously, a man can go through rape or domestic abuse as a woman can. Both men and women are victims of toxic masculinity. So on and so forth. I guess I just yearn for a day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities when it comes to things like this and everyone gets treated as an individual. Men and women both get unfairly chosen and disqualified for jobs because of their genders, and this is a significant barrier in equality.

    I suppose, (and this is getting a bit off topic) but to continue to push that "both men and women have it tough" really undermines how significantly harder women have had it in society, I think.

    You are right, though, things like toxic masculinity hurt both men and women, and of course, we all yearn for this day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities etc etc, but unfortunately that isn't the reality of society right now. The pendulum has swung so far towards the men, that as part of the correction, it will have to swing hard the other direction.

    Bo Burnam said something great to this effect, it was something like, "it's unfair to expect the solution to unfairness to be perfect".

    I don’t disagree women have had and still have it harder, I know better; the abortion issue should be proof enough of that for everyone. But I don’t agree that that makes it right to downplay the problems men face too. As for the “pendulum” having to swing hard the other way, it sounds something like revenge on the surface to me. Maybe it wasn’t meant this way, but I know a lot of progressives feel this need to “get even” essentially to make things “fair,” though I don’t think two wrongs make a right. And I also think it will be much harder gaining male support for the right cause in using ways that make them feel lesser.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    FoxRox wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’d gladly welcome a female director, provided they had the resume + personality for the job. Much better that than a male who had no / bad resume and didn’t fit. What bothers me about all this is that it reinforces stereotypes, choosing a woman for the sake of her being a woman that is. Obviously, men and women are more likely than one another to go through life in different ways thanks to societal norms, but there’s never a guarantee of anything.

    For instance, a man can be as “feminine” as a woman, and a woman as “masculine” as a man, as people call it. Though it isn’t treated as seriously, a man can go through rape or domestic abuse as a woman can. Both men and women are victims of toxic masculinity. So on and so forth. I guess I just yearn for a day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities when it comes to things like this and everyone gets treated as an individual. Men and women both get unfairly chosen and disqualified for jobs because of their genders, and this is a significant barrier in equality.

    I suppose, (and this is getting a bit off topic) but to continue to push that "both men and women have it tough" really undermines how significantly harder women have had it in society, I think.

    You are right, though, things like toxic masculinity hurt both men and women, and of course, we all yearn for this day when everyone is able to look past surface qualities etc etc, but unfortunately that isn't the reality of society right now. The pendulum has swung so far towards the men, that as part of the correction, it will have to swing hard the other direction.

    Bo Burnam said something great to this effect, it was something like, "it's unfair to expect the solution to unfairness to be perfect".

    I don’t disagree women have had and still have it harder, I know better; the abortion issue should be proof enough of that for everyone. But I don’t agree that that makes it right to downplay the problems men face too. As for the “pendulum” having to swing hard the other way, it sounds something like revenge on the surface to me. Maybe it wasn’t meant this way, but I know a lot of progressives feel this need to “get even” essentially to make things “fair,” though I don’t think two wrongs make a right. And I also think it will be much harder gaining male support for the right cause in using ways that make them feel lesser.

    Absolutely not. To use a possibly overused metaphor, if I left the stove on and went out and burned my casserole, and my neighbors house is on fire, I wouldn't tell the firefighters "it's wrong to downplay the problems I'm facing too." There is triage that needs to be done, and yes, society is failing men in many ways, but it's failing women to a much higher degree and that's where the focus needs to be. I'll never be on board with these so called "men's rights activists".

    And it absolutely does not have anything to do with revenge. The pendulum swinging hard in the other direction metaphor, while maybe it does sound violent when I say it like that lol, just means that we as society should work to do better to the groups of people that we have made life difficult for.
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