Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,987
    Blofeld is dead. Leave him dead. We only need one resurrection. How about a Bond that does away with villains instead of a return to the same old illusive villain that took sixty years to bring down.
  • SHERLOCKSHERLOCK HOLLYWOOD, CA
    Posts: 1
    There was a 6 year delay in BOND films between Dalton and Brosnan (1989 - 1995). The reasons are not cle007-logo-gold.jpg
    ar. Only one thing is certain. BOND WILL RETUIRN. (Thank heavens).
  • Posts: 1,859
    I would have no problem seeing the return of Blofeld as the seldom seen mastermind behind SPECTRE plots that involve a new villain in each adventure. I am definitely in favor of an Old School film Bond.
  • edited February 2023 Posts: 4,139
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    My controversial opinion? Blofeld is not that interesting a character. Period.

    Violet-scented breath? So does my aunt.

    He's not depicted well in the films compared IMO

    Even in the books, I'm afraid, he did seemed good in Thunderball, but in the next following novels, he's no longer interesting, he's not threatening nor menacing, he's just a man who's desperate and frustrated, he's a man whom anyone could messed up with.

    That's one of the reasons why Thunderball worked, it's set up Blofeld as a criminal mastermind, a scary boss, threatening, powerful, and deadly.

    But both in OHMSS and YOLT, he's no longer that, add to that was his silly, ridiculous plots that proved he's frustrated, not a fan of him or his plots in those two novels.

    The expectations was high because of Thunderball, but his turn in OHMSS and YOLT disappointed me really, it's a like he became a deflated balloon.

    Like it made me think "Is this still the same man that I've read from Thunderball? He's entirely different, but in a bad and lesser way".

    It would've been better had Thunderball became a one-off book with SPECTRE and Blofeld, think of how From Russia With Love was with General Grubozaboyschikov (General G), after that, he's never heard nor seen again in the other novels, Fleming just put him there, but never planned on making him a recurring character.

    Would have been better if he did that with Blofeld, he's mentioned and described in Thunderball, but after that was never seen or heard again, then both in OHMSS and YOLT, there's an entirely different villain.

    Blofeld in the novels is a strange character. Not only does his appearance radically change due to the plastic surgery he puts himself through, but his character as a whole has an odd development. On the surface, in TB he's basically an ambitious criminal. He's not ideological but simply wants to extort Governments for money using the stolen warheads. There are traces of megalomania in there with how he conducts the SPECTRE meeting though (even going as far as to kill one of his members because they rape a kidnap victim. If I recall correctly it upsets him to the point where he gives back the ransom money).

    In OHMSS, SPECTRE has more or less been downsized. Again, it seems Blofeld is simply an ambitious criminal using his Angels of Death to hold Britain to ransom, however even more of his increasing insanity and ego is made apparent. He seems hell bent on attaining the Count De Bleuville title (which is in a sense his downfall) and seems noticeably more snobbish.

    By YOLT, SPECTRE has been completely disbanded. He's set up what is essentially a suicide garden, himself the King of this strange, hellish dominion. He believes he's a great man on the same level as Napoleon and even justifies his previous criminal enterprises as being potentially good for humanity. By this point it's obvious he's gone completely mad.

    That's really the key to Blofeld. He's not a super villain but a man who wants to be great and over the course of the novels loses everything (including his own sanity).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    That mania element is something I think Christoph Waltz really does well. Right up to the end when his first response after being nearly choked to death Bond is “cuckoo!!” with a big grin on his face. Just the fact that he got under Bond’s skin and broke that stoicism is what gave him happiness right before actually croaking.

    The only regret is that we didn’t get Waltz as much as we should have across two films.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    On paper, Waltz should've been a great Blofeld. Somehow, it never took light. Hamstrung by 'Brofeld', maybe. Someone on here once suggested that Werner Herzog would've made a really menacing Blofeld and I haven't been able to unsee that since. He'd've been superb - and with his age, there'd've been no scope for foster-brother malarkey either!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The brofeld thing never bothered me too much because it wasn’t even that integral enough. You could literally cut out all references and it wouldn’t have much of an impact on the actual plot.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    You need more than a good actor to make Blofeld work, you need good writing, and Spectre didn’t have that.

    I’m sure that Blofeld will be back, though - imo the producers are desperate for headline-grabbing concepts to compete in today’s market, and the obvious move for them to make in the new iteration of Bond is to bring in a female Blofeld.

    I would like to see Gillian Anderson as an antagonist, though, she’s always very good.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Where I think the films have failed is to acknowledge the ever-changing appearance of Blofeld, to elude capture I guess. In the novels it's deliberate, but in the films it just comes across as confusing recasting, time and again.

    Bizarrely enough, the closest they come to acknowledging it is in the plastic surgery of DAF. But even that would have been better with a throwaway line like, "I'm so glad to have gotten rid of that scar...and wow, look at these hair transplants!"
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    echo wrote: »
    Where I think the films have failed is to acknowledge the ever-changing appearance of Blofeld, to elude capture I guess. In the novels it's deliberate, but in the films it just comes across as confusing recasting, time and again.

    Bizarrely enough, the closest they come to acknowledging it is in the plastic surgery of DAF. But even that would have been better with a throwaway line like, "I'm so glad to have gotten rid of that scar...and wow, look at these hair transplants!"

    Considering how silly DAF is, it is surprising that a line like that wasn’t used! I suppose the next Blofeld could say “It’s not like we’re brothers, or anything.”
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    the obvious move for them to make in the new iteration of Bond is to bring in a female Blofeld.
    It was considered!
    https://bleedingcool.com/movies/when-blofeld-was-a-woman-in-spectre-sony-leaks/

  • Posts: 1,859
    echo wrote: »
    Where I think the films have failed is to acknowledge the ever-changing appearance of Blofeld, to elude capture I guess. In the novels it's deliberate, but in the films it just comes across as confusing recasting, time and again.

    Bizarrely enough, the closest they come to acknowledging it is in the plastic surgery of DAF. But even that would have been better with a throwaway line like, "I'm so glad to have gotten rid of that scar...and wow, look at these hair transplants!"

    I always thought Charles Grey was closest to Fleming's OHMSS description of Blofeld. He just needed the chrome contact lenses.
  • Posts: 4,139
    The issue with a new version of Blofeld is you have to re-contextualise him and Bond's antagonism. Short of a remake of OHMSS you lose the Tracy/revenge aspect, and in a sense it's this which makes the Blofeld of the novels/early films Bond's ultimate villain.

    But for me, I'd like to see Blofeld and SPECTRE shelved for a bit.
  • Posts: 2,161
    007HallY wrote: »
    The issue with a new version of Blofeld is you have to re-contextualise him and Bond's antagonism. Short of a remake of OHMSS you lose the Tracy/revenge aspect, and in a sense it's this which makes the Blofeld of the novels/early films Bond's ultimate villain.

    But for me, I'd like to see Blofeld and SPECTRE shelved for a bit.

    I guess I have to agree, it is just a shame that they were handled so poorly after such a long wait, which leads to another long wait being the best option.
  • Posts: 1,630
    007HallY wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    My controversial opinion? Blofeld is not that interesting a character. Period.

    Violet-scented breath? So does my aunt.

    He's not depicted well in the films compared IMO

    Even in the books, I'm afraid, he did seemed good in Thunderball, but in the next following novels, he's no longer interesting, he's not threatening nor menacing, he's just a man who's desperate and frustrated, he's a man whom anyone could messed up with.

    That's one of the reasons why Thunderball worked, it's set up Blofeld as a criminal mastermind, a scary boss, threatening, powerful, and deadly.

    But both in OHMSS and YOLT, he's no longer that, add to that was his silly, ridiculous plots that proved he's frustrated, not a fan of him or his plots in those two novels.

    The expectations was high because of Thunderball, but his turn in OHMSS and YOLT disappointed me really, it's a like he became a deflated balloon.

    Like it made me think "Is this still the same man that I've read from Thunderball? He's entirely different, but in a bad and lesser way".

    It would've been better had Thunderball became a one-off book with SPECTRE and Blofeld, think of how From Russia With Love was with General Grubozaboyschikov (General G), after that, he's never heard nor seen again in the other novels, Fleming just put him there, but never planned on making him a recurring character.

    Would have been better if he did that with Blofeld, he's mentioned and described in Thunderball, but after that was never seen or heard again, then both in OHMSS and YOLT, there's an entirely different villain.

    Blofeld in the novels is a strange character. Not only does his appearance radically change due to the plastic surgery he puts himself through, but his character as a whole has an odd development. On the surface, in TB he's basically an ambitious criminal. He's not ideological but simply wants to extort Governments for money using the stolen warheads. There are traces of megalomania in there with how he conducts the SPECTRE meeting though (even going as far as to kill one of his members because they rape a kidnap victim. If I recall correctly it upsets him to the point where he gives back the ransom money).

    In OHMSS, SPECTRE has more or less been downsized. Again, it seems Blofeld is simply an ambitious criminal using his Angels of Death to hold Britain to ransom, however even more of his increasing insanity and ego is made apparent. He seems hell bent on attaining the Count De Bleuville title (which is in a sense his downfall) and seems noticeably more snobbish.

    By YOLT, SPECTRE has been completely disbanded. He's set up what is essentially a suicide garden, himself the King of this strange, hellish dominion. He believes he's a great man on the same level as Napoleon and even justifies his previous criminal enterprises as being potentially good for humanity. By this point it's obvious he's gone completely mad.

    That's really the key to Blofeld. He's not a super villain but a man who wants to be great and over the course of the novels loses everything (including his own sanity).

    "...By this point it's obvious he's gone completely mad...."
    Hmm, rather like the time we got to see Dr. Evil yet again. As Austin Powers said, "I always thought you were crazy, but now I can your nuts !"
    And, no, I did not misspell "your."
  • Posts: 133
    I'm really worried about what Barbara Broccoli told to LADbible (https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/james-bond-producer-007-casting-000129-20230219):
    Broccoli has previously noted how Craig had 'cracked Bond open emotionally', saying that same emotional heft would be required of future 007s.

    She could have mentioned so many things about the direction they want to go but instead she mentions the emotional weight of the character. It almost seems like it's the most important thing for the producers.
    Do we really need a Craig 2.0 ? It's getting incredibly boring if every film is about Bonds personal issues and emotions. Where's the fun, the adventure? Shouldn't they focus on an interesting story first?
    I don't need a new MR or DAD and I'm not against emotional and personal stories like LTK or CR, but if every film goes in that direction, it's getting boring. I think at least sometimes a more lighter movie can't be that bad.

  • edited February 2023 Posts: 4,139
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    I'm really worried about what Barbara Broccoli told to LADbible (https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/james-bond-producer-007-casting-000129-20230219):
    Broccoli has previously noted how Craig had 'cracked Bond open emotionally', saying that same emotional heft would be required of future 007s.

    She could have mentioned so many things about the direction they want to go but instead she mentions the emotional weight of the character. It almost seems like it's the most important thing for the producers.
    Do we really need a Craig 2.0 ? It's getting incredibly boring if every film is about Bonds personal issues and emotions. Where's the fun, the adventure? Shouldn't they focus on an interesting story first?
    I don't need a new MR or DAD and I'm not against emotional and personal stories like LTK or CR, but if every film goes in that direction, it's getting boring. I think at least sometimes a more lighter movie can't be that bad.

    Could they not have both though? An entertaining, adventure filled film with an interesting story, in which Bond has some form of conflict or even development (however minor)?

    I mean, the vast majority of movies - and usually all successful ones, including Bond films -have both an interesting story and this sense of character (or at least try to).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Reprint of a previous article.

    The emotional weight of the character is what everyone loved about CR. So she's right.
  • Posts: 1,987
    If the next Bond is a new Bond unrelated to all previous Bonds and in his own timeline, what emotional baggage will he be carrying? I am ready for a Bond energetic about his job, unburdened by dead lovers, and not planning on tendering his resignation.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    If the next Bond is a new Bond unrelated to all previous Bonds and in his own timeline, what emotional baggage will he be carrying? I am ready for a Bond energetic about his job, unburdened by dead lovers, and not planning on tendering his resignation.

    Yes, and that's why many people still loved Goldeneye.
  • edited February 2023 Posts: 784
    I think she means they won't regress to him being a flat, one dimensional character. The plot can be satisfying and still retain heavy personal stakes of different characters. (It's what differentiates Interstellar from other generic sci-fi films).

    Just because the concept of a personal Bond wasn't handled with enough intricacy or impressive enough writing in Craig's later films, doesn't mean a flat follow up would be successful, I actually suspect quite the contrary. There aren't that many actors, especially today, that can salvage an impersonal story with sheer presence like Connery & Moore anyway.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Birdleson wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The issue with a new version of Blofeld is you have to re-contextualise him and Bond's antagonism. Short of a remake of OHMSS you lose the Tracy/revenge aspect, and in a sense it's this which makes the Blofeld of the novels/early films Bond's ultimate villain.

    But for me, I'd like to see Blofeld and SPECTRE shelved for a bit.

    I guess I have to agree, it is just a shame that they were handled so poorly after such a long wait, which leads to another long wait being the best option.

    I'm glad they didn't went that route of remaking, for what? To have Madeleine Swann be a substitute for Tracy? No way, man, no way! :-O

    They could reinvent Blofeld in so many ways (without using the old formula), but they've failed.
  • Posts: 4,139
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    If the next Bond is a new Bond unrelated to all previous Bonds and in his own timeline, what emotional baggage will he be carrying? I am ready for a Bond energetic about his job, unburdened by dead lovers, and not planning on tendering his resignation.

    Yes, and that's why many people still loved Goldeneye.

    Well, Bond in that film has 'emotional baggage'. The whole second half of that film is him having to face the scenario of killing his former colleague and friend. There are references made to the death of his parents and how MI6 tend to recruit orphans as field agents (much like SF). Heck, there are subtle hints in the film about Bond's relevancy in the post Cold War era.

    I'd say people loved Goldeneye at the time (and I guess still now, although I don't think it's quite as popular among general audiences as CR and SF) because the story was engaging and it was done well. Not because Bond was a flat, one dimensional character.
    Just because the cncept of a personal Bond wasn't handled with enough intricacy or impressive writing in Craig's later films, doesn't mean a flat follow up would be successful, I actually suspect quite the contrary. There aren't that many actors, especially today, that can salvage an impersonal story with sheer presence like Connery & Moore anyway.

    I broadly agree. To be honest, I don't suspect there are many general viewers outside this fandom who really pine for a Bond without any sort of character. Like I said, most films have a lead character with some sort of conflict, and it's a major part of what engages audiences. It just depends on what they do and how they do it.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    One thing I really appreciated about the character was his reluctance in his 00 status, that was very Fleming. It's like he's resigned himself to a lifetime of service.

    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.

    I think it was a love/hate thing. Didn't Fleming also write that the missions Bond enjoyed the most were the dangerous ones? (I can't remember the book).
    But yes, he's also often jaded in the novels, and Horowitz picked up on that too, particularly in the last book.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.

    I think it was a love/hate thing. Didn't Fleming also write that the missions Bond enjoyed the most were the dangerous ones? (I can't remember the book).
    But yes, he's also often jaded in the novels, and Horowitz picked up on that too, particularly in the last book.

    Yes, the 'reluctant 007' is a Fleming thing. Even in Casino Royale, Bond wonders if he's actually doing the right thing, who the good and bad guys are and whatnot. Craig (and to some extent Dalton and Peter Hunt) didn't "invent" the doubting or slightly insubordinate Bond. These guys read Fleming and went with it. That's part of the reason why I hate political discussions with people who never read Fleming and merely assume that the Craig Bond is a modern invention, all "woke" and whatnot, a thing of the "now". In fact, just yesterday someone told me that Bond not getting the girl (in QOS) was very "unbondian". A certain Fleming book comes to mind...
  • edited February 2023 Posts: 4,139
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.

    I think it was a love/hate thing. Didn't Fleming also write that the missions Bond enjoyed the most were the dangerous ones? (I can't remember the book).
    But yes, he's also often jaded in the novels, and Horowitz picked up on that too, particularly in the last book.

    The Bond from the books did indeed like danger/adventure, and was certainly prone to bouts of melancholic boredom during his downtime in London. At the same time he was highly cynical about the politics behind his job and outright hated killing in cold blood (hell, he seemed to dislike killing in general and begrudgingly viewed it as a 'kill or be killed' thing despite also having melancholic bouts whenever he did have to carry out a brutal kill).

    I always got the sense that Fleming's Bond was a man who really couldn't do anything else with his life. He enjoyed the danger of his job too much and yet also had a strong sense of duty so would always be pulled back. Even when he tried to settle down, fate would lead to him having to return to the Service. It's something I did see in Craig's Bond. Fleming's character certainly couldn't hold down a long term relationship, and would often indulge in drink, gambling and sex simply out of that boredom. Again, it's something we've seen hinted at in the films and perhaps heavily adapted in various forms, but I don't think any cinematic Bond has quite had that dynamic to them.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.

    I think it was a love/hate thing. Didn't Fleming also write that the missions Bond enjoyed the most were the dangerous ones? (I can't remember the book).
    But yes, he's also often jaded in the novels, and Horowitz picked up on that too, particularly in the last book.

    Yes, the 'reluctant 007' is a Fleming thing. Even in Casino Royale, Bond wonders if he's actually doing the right thing, who the good and bad guys are and whatnot. Craig (and to some extent Dalton and Peter Hunt) didn't "invent" the doubting or slightly insubordinate Bond. These guys read Fleming and went with it. That's part of the reason why I hate political discussions with people who never read Fleming and merely assume that the Craig Bond is a modern invention, all "woke" and whatnot, a thing of the "now". In fact, just yesterday someone told me that Bond not getting the girl (in QOS) was very "unbondian". A certain Fleming book comes to mind...

    I had been showing Bond films to my friends who hadn’t really gone through the movies before, and they were surprised when Bond and Camille part ways without doing the deed. But they were pleasantly surprised by that development. After over 20 films, you come expect some adherence to a formula but every now and then the movies go a different route and I think that’s become necessary for the sake of variety.

    This is why I’ll never expect a “classic” old school Bond movie from the Connery/Moore era again unless Eon and the filmmakers actually want to do that. We have a dozen of those films already that we can watch any time at this point. So when Bond actually dies in one of them I see that as an inevitability. If Craig wasn’t going to be the one suggesting it, someone else would have. It’s a 60 year old franchise and everyone is going to want to do something different down the line rather than make the same movie over and over.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember when I first read the Fleming novels in between DAD and Casino, I was shocked that Bond didn't enjoy being a 00 and almost resented the title. I think it was in Moonraker he even mentions looking forward to a desk job. It appeared to be the polar opposite of Pierce's Bond.

    I think it was a love/hate thing. Didn't Fleming also write that the missions Bond enjoyed the most were the dangerous ones? (I can't remember the book).
    But yes, he's also often jaded in the novels, and Horowitz picked up on that too, particularly in the last book.

    Yes, the 'reluctant 007' is a Fleming thing. Even in Casino Royale, Bond wonders if he's actually doing the right thing, who the good and bad guys are and whatnot. Craig (and to some extent Dalton and Peter Hunt) didn't "invent" the doubting or slightly insubordinate Bond. These guys read Fleming and went with it. That's part of the reason why I hate political discussions with people who never read Fleming and merely assume that the Craig Bond is a modern invention, all "woke" and whatnot, a thing of the "now". In fact, just yesterday someone told me that Bond not getting the girl (in QOS) was very "unbondian". A certain Fleming book comes to mind...

    I had been showing Bond films to my friends who hadn’t really gone through the movies before, and they were surprised when Bond and Camille part ways without doing the deed. But they were pleasantly surprised by that development. After over 20 films, you come expect some adherence to a formula but every now and then the movies go a different route and I think that’s become necessary for the sake of variety.

    This is why I’ll never expect a “classic” old school Bond movie from the Connery/Moore era again unless Eon and the filmmakers actually want to do that. We have a dozen of those films already that we can watch any time at this point. So when Bond actually dies in one of them I see that as an inevitability. If Craig wasn’t going to be the one suggesting it, someone else would have. It’s a 60 year old franchise and everyone is going to want to do something different down the line rather than make the same movie over and over.

    Exactly; you are correct as usual, @MakeshiftPython. We've had a Thunderball, a Goldfinger, a The Spy Who Loved Me. What's even better is the fact that we can rewatch them as often as we like. No point in remaking them. And it is not just the films but, as you say, the eras too. '80s Bond was already vastly different from '60s Bond. Well, 2020s Bond will probably be different too. Nostalgic desires can be powerful, but also powerfully misleading. A more-of-the-same Bond might leave us (and general audiences) unsatisfied. Every Bond film must have "those things" that typify Bond, while also doing something different. That is the only way to keep the series fresh and bring in new fans (even if it is at the risk of losing some of the older ones.)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yes, exactly. Sure, there are particular elements that make it Bond, but it doesn't have to be a dot-to-dot, draw by numbers ticklist - you can mix and emphasise the ingredients differently and still have it be 'Bond'.
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