Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    If Bond drank as much as Fleming wrote “in real life”, most people would be vomiting from alcohol poisoning, 😂. Sometimes when reading the books, and imagining the amount of booze this man drinks, I get a nice little hangover myself!

    Indeed, booze is also not that far off from smoking too, it's still a vice.

    And like what I've said in the other thread, booze these days are a symbol of low class and criminality.

    If you're a heavy drinker, people would have thought you as a low class person in the society who's making troubles.

    Watching modern films these days, that's how they depict heavy drinking, when you're in a bar, gets in too rumble, riot and fights, of course, as a gang, it became a sign of low class, criminal thing.

    Being part of a gangster thing might be the exact word to describe the alcoholism these days.

    And for a character like Bond, it's indeed no longer fit too.

    It's no longer a sign of sophistication.

    I think that's also one of the reasons why I think Craig's Bond also lacked sophistication, he comes off more as a low class bad boy than a sophisticated, connoisseur spy guy (the book Bond is a lot more sophisticated as I've read it).

    Booze these days is a sign of being brutal, desperate, and being a low class gangster in the society.

    I don’t think this is a convincing argument. Bond for the most part drinks responsibly. He doesn’t indulge to the point that he can no longer function during a mission. That’s what sets him apart from criminals that drink irresponsibly. Cigarettes and drinks are not equal vices, and can’t be treated interchangeably. To this day, Bond can still walk into a casino, head to the bar area, and order a vodka martini. The same cannot be said about cigarettes, especially as more and more public places become designated smoke-free. They would tell Bond to take it outside if he wanted to smoke so badly.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,800
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    If Bond drank as much as Fleming wrote “in real life”, most people would be vomiting from alcohol poisoning, 😂. Sometimes when reading the books, and imagining the amount of booze this man drinks, I get a nice little hangover myself!

    Indeed, booze is also not that far off from smoking too, it's still a vice.

    And like what I've said in the other thread, booze these days are a symbol of low class and criminality.

    If you're a heavy drinker, people would have thought you as a low class person in the society who's making troubles.

    Watching modern films these days, that's how they depict heavy drinking, when you're in a bar, gets in too rumble, riot and fights, of course, as a gang, it became a sign of low class, criminal thing.

    Being part of a gangster thing might be the exact word to describe the alcoholism these days.

    And for a character like Bond, it's indeed no longer fit too.

    It's no longer a sign of sophistication.

    I think that's also one of the reasons why I think Craig's Bond also lacked sophistication, he comes off more as a low class bad boy than a sophisticated, connoisseur spy guy (the book Bond is a lot more sophisticated as I've read it).

    Booze these days is a sign of being brutal, desperate, and being a low class gangster in the society.

    I don’t think this is a convincing argument. Bond for the most part drinks responsibly. He doesn’t indulge to the point that he can no longer function during a mission. That’s what sets him apart from criminals that drink irresponsibly. Cigarettes and drinks are not equal vices, and can’t be treated interchangeably. To this day, Bond can still walk into a casino, head to the bar area, and order a vodka martini. The same cannot be said about cigarettes, especially as more and more public places become designated smoke-free. They would tell Bond to take it outside if he wanted to smoke so badly.

    I'm not talking to all the Bonds in general, but more about the Craig Era, I wished I've specified it more.

    But there you are, of course the Classic Bonds knows how to put each things in moderation like drinking and yes, smoking.

    That's also one of the things why I'm a bit fond of Moore's Bond too, he smokes, he drinks, but all in moderation, not too much.

    But Craig's Bond went too far from it that he became the most alcoholic Bond.

    Like what I've said, he's for me the least sophisticated of all the Bonds, because he leaned too much on being bad ass that he lacked the class which is one of the most important parts of Bond's character (even in the books).

    That's why him drinking too much could be almost comparable to an irresponsible drinking like those of gangsters.

    Reduce it, but not too much like the Craig Era.
    Licensed to spill! Daniel Craig is booziest James Bond ever who knocks back 20 units of alcohol per movie
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243718/amp/Licensed-spill-Daniel-Craig-booziest-James-Bond-knocks-20-units-alcohol-movie.html

    I wish we could get back to the aspects of the Classic Bond where he doesn't drink that much to the point of being booze like Craig's Bond did, he puffs a bit, but not too much either too, it doesn't need to be in the Casino, it could be a cigar like what Moore did in LALD or in TMWTGG.

    Or when Bond killed Professor Dent, just a matter of style, but not too much.

    Think of Benoit Blanc (in Knives Out) of how he puffed a cigar, just like that.

    And did anyone criticized it, like "Hey! Benoit Blanc is smoking! He's such a desperate guy!" I didn't heard any word from anyone about the way Benoit Blanc puffed his cigar, and I don't see any difference with Bond either.

    I could also make an argument about the way Jamie Lee Curtis' character there (Linda Thrombrey) smoked her cigarette in that same film, yet there's no complaints, but when it comes to Bond, it's always a big deal.

    For me, it's a part of their style.

    That's one of the things, why I liked Knives Out and Glass Onion, I think Craig was a lot more sophisticated in those films than he was as Bond.

    I wished we've seen that side of Craig when he was James Bond then.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 102
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But Craig's Bond went too far from it that he became the most alcoholic Bond.

    I mean, have you read the first chapter of Goldfinger?

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Think of Benoit Blanc (in Knives Out) of how he puffed a cigar, just like that.

    And did anyone criticized it, like "Hey! Benoit Blanc is smoking! He's such a desperate guy!" I didn't heard any word from anyone about the way Benoit Blanc puffed his cigar, and I don't see any difference with Bond either.

    Everyone has been specifically saying that cigars are different and don't have that connotation.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I could also make an argument about the way Jamie Lee Curtis' character there (Linda Thrombrey) smoked her cigarette in that same film, yet there's no complaints, but when it comes to Bond, it's always a big deal.

    That kind of makes the point though. She's not supposed to be cool; she's supposed to be highly strung and nervous, a character not to be trusted. The cigarettes are part of that character-building.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Or YOLT??? Or MR? Or CR???

    Craig Bond only was drunk once, when he allowed himself to mourn Vesper whilst on a plane, in QoS...

    In Jamaica, in NTTD, I gather his intake of alcohol was directly related to his melancholy, a la the character in YOLT...Nomi nails it when she says he looks like he only has time to kill...
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But Craig's Bond went too far from it that he became the most alcoholic Bond.

    I mean, have you read the first chapter of Goldfinger?

    Yes, I've read it, but it doesn't looked good today compared then though, I mean it's no longer sophisticated nowadays.
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 4,273
    I don't think Bond was meant to come off as sophisticated in the first chapter of that book either though. He's a man who's just killed (something he obviously feels conflicted about), could have died, and wants to block the whole thing out by going on a bender during his off time. It's really not dissimilar to Craig's Bond drinking excessively during his down time in SF and QOS.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,800
    You know, I've realized that this is one of the reasons why there's a conflict in keeping Bond contemporary, we're considering Bond's traits but also making him fit in with contemporary times.

    As much as I don't liked period pieces, but the aspects that made Bond should be kept like drinking or smoking and etc.

    But in creating period pieces means accepting the fact that Bond couldn't move forward and should stay in that timeline, and story and plot wise, there would be no innovations.

    It's hard to combine both.

    But here's my opinion, this is Bond whatever he would do, since he's a fictional character, if he smokes, he drinks hard or whatever he does, the critics shouldn't care because if they don't want Bond that way, then they shouldn't watch, now, if one is accepting Bond of who he is then fine.

    So yes, he's still in the Contemporary times but he's still doing his habits like how it's written in the Fleming Books, now, it depends on the audience if they're going to watch it.

    It's like rewriting Books for modern sensibilities.

    If some people were sensitive about Fleming's texts, then better if they don't read those, but if some were accepting those books for how they're written they shouldn't be offensive of those texts.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    I think the films have shown pretty well that he can be subtly updated and yet remain the same character.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2023 Posts: 8,438
    It's been revealed the WGA members voted overwhelmingly to authorise the strike action. Things can still happen, but it's about time we buckled in because we're in for the long haul. :-<
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,164
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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,800
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  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I hope Bond reminds a drinker to be honest, it suited the hyper masculine version of Bond that Craig was.

    As for the smoking, if I'm brutally honest Connery in Dr No was the only Bond that made smoking look cool. The less said about Pierce and his cigar in DAD the better
  • Posts: 6,710
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    Univex wrote: »
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)

    True; I also wish they'd kept that too. I mean, every time I watch Knives Out, it always strikes me how cool Craig is in that film, and the way it's pictured in that NTTD deleted scene, I think it would've been cool.
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 1,085
    I think 'hedonistic Bond' all falls on whether Bond films are for just grown-ups or kids as well. I wouldn't mind a smoking, more heavily drinking Bond, but it wouldn't be appropriate if he was set up as a hero for crossover adult/kids films like I assume the Marvel movies are.
    Of course, these days, grown-ups are less assumed to be able to differentiate between good and bad behaviour, but that's another debate.

    As far as the book Bond goes, it was said in Goldfinger that he hadn't been drunk in years. So whilst he was a heavy drinker, he wasn't what we call a 'pisshead'. For want of a better term.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,574
    Yeah I'd have liked it, but as I say perhaps it confused the moment where he discovers Felix's cigar (as we'd have just thought it was another of his), and the film is long enough already without scenes of him feeding cats.
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    As for the smoking, if I'm brutally honest Connery in Dr No was the only Bond that made smoking look cool. The less said about Pierce and his cigar in DAD the better

    Yes he does overdo it a bit.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Yeah, I see why the cigar wasn't in it - no excuse for removing the speargun, though! We lost some classic imagery there.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    I still would've enjoyed seeing Bond light up that cigar at some point in NTTD, for Felix.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Oh, absolutely - he really should've sparked that up when he got on that rooftop. Ok, Brits of a certain age would've heard the music from the Hamlet ad start up in our heads, but yeh, he really should've lit Felix's cigar and smoked out while waiting for the missiles!
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Univex wrote: »
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)

    Like @mtm said Pierce just over does it a touch, as smooth as Pierce is, it didn't look natural.

    Remember when those cat pictures leaked? It still seems really random almost 4 years on
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    Pierce with a cigar would be fine if Lee Tamahori didn’t direct him to play it up so much, like how he lets out the smoke after Jinx says “now there’s a mouthful”.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited April 2023 Posts: 4,692
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)

    Like @mtm said Pierce just over does it a touch, as smooth as Pierce is, it didn't look natural.

    Remember when those cat pictures leaked? It still seems really random almost 4 years on

    Does much of anything look natural in Die Another Day? Other than Halle Berry?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Pierce with a cigar would be fine if Lee Tamahori didn’t direct him to play it up so much, like how he lets out the smoke after Jinx says “now there’s a mouthful”.

    It's Bond thinking "speaking of a mouthful, watch how much of this cigar smoke I can blow directly into your face."
  • Posts: 2,022
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)

    Like @mtm said Pierce just over does it a touch, as smooth as Pierce is, it didn't look natural.

    Remember when those cat pictures leaked? It still seems really random almost 4 years on

    Does much of anything look natural in Die Another Day? Other than Halle Berry?

    Who knows? HB may have been a deep fake.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I absolutely hate DAD. But what was wrong with Pierce’s cigar? He happens to be a big cigar afficcionado in real life. I wish they’d kept that cigar in NTTD, along with the cat eating the fish of course ;)

    Like @mtm said Pierce just over does it a touch, as smooth as Pierce is, it didn't look natural.

    Remember when those cat pictures leaked? It still seems really random almost 4 years on

    Does much of anything look natural in Die Another Day? Other than Halle Berry?

    Haha good point
  • Posts: 1,864
    Am I wrong or.......................didn't Bond in the books distrust anyone who smoked cigars?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited April 2023 Posts: 8,201
    I thought that was anyone who wore Windsor tie knots.
  • Posts: 3,327
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    He wouldn't have trusted Lazenby in OHMSS, or Dalton in LTK then.... ;)
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