Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    My god people, Purvis and Wade never have a final say on any of these scripts. You overestimate how much of their influence is on them. They even admit that none of their work made it to QOS despite having a screenplay credit.
  • edited April 2023 Posts: 2,266
    P&W are deeply enriched in their knowledge of Fleming. I know people aren’t fans of their work, but as mentioned above, they never have final word on what goes into the films. To lose them during this transitional period would be foolish of EON.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited April 2023 Posts: 682
    Agreed, they get too much flak (I'm guilty of it myself). Purvis and Wade are credited to seven films, yet I don't see anyone complaining about Richard Maibaum doing thirteen.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,382
    P&W are deeply enriched in their knowledge of Fleming. I know people aren’t fans of their work, but as mentioned above, they never have final word on what goes into the films. To lose them during this transitional period would be foolish of EON.

    I was reading about Spectre, and one thing I didn't realise was that they pushed for the winter stuff to be set in Kitzbühel because it's where Fleming learnt to ski when he was young, and when he stayed there he stayed with a couple who provided therapy for people in a 'negative contest with their siblings'; which obviously is part of the plot of the film. Intentional because they know their Fleming, as you say.
    People always say they're terrible, but I never quite work out what the reason is. The plots seem perfectly good to me. They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    I heard that Cubby is soooo in love with that big muscly Scotsman that he's actually going to dump Lazenby and pay Connery the highest wage for an actor ever. Can you believe it?? Even though Connery said how much he hates Bond!! I hope his daughter is more professional when she takes over.

    Love it.
  • mtm wrote: »
    P&W are deeply enriched in their knowledge of Fleming. I know people aren’t fans of their work, but as mentioned above, they never have final word on what goes into the films. To lose them during this transitional period would be foolish of EON.

    I was reading about Spectre, and one thing I didn't realise was that they pushed for the winter stuff to be set in Kitzbühel because it's where Fleming learnt to ski when he was young, and when he stayed there he stayed with a couple who provided therapy for people in a 'negative contest with their siblings'; which obviously is part of the plot of the film. Intentional because they know their Fleming, as you say.
    People always say they're terrible, but I never quite work out what the reason is. The plots seem perfectly good to me. They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.

    See I never knew the fact! But I doubt you would find any other screenwriter like that who’s so enriched in the Fleming books and the man’s life himself. I think they mainly get flack due to their involvement in both TWINE, and DAD. It’s always those two films I see get thrown around a lot when people say they don’t like their work.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.
    I think you have perhaps misunderstood the complaint - it’s that it’s happened too many times before and is becoming a regular thing.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    P&W are deeply enriched in their knowledge of Fleming. I know people aren’t fans of their work, but as mentioned above, they never have final word on what goes into the films. To lose them during this transitional period would be foolish of EON.

    I was reading about Spectre, and one thing I didn't realise was that they pushed for the winter stuff to be set in Kitzbühel because it's where Fleming learnt to ski when he was young, and when he stayed there he stayed with a couple who provided therapy for people in a 'negative contest with their siblings'; which obviously is part of the plot of the film. Intentional because they know their Fleming, as you say.
    People always say they're terrible, but I never quite work out what the reason is. The plots seem perfectly good to me. They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.

    See I never knew the fact! But I doubt you would find any other screenwriter like that who’s so enriched in the Fleming books and the man’s life himself. I think they mainly get flack due to their involvement in both TWINE, and DAD. It’s always those two films I see get thrown around a lot when people say they don’t like their work.

    I don't know how much P&W were the ones who incorporated the Fleming aspects in SF, but I think John Logan proved with SP that he really didn't get Bond.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    QOS is the nearest thing Dan had to a P & W-free script. Forster junked their script early on, although Haggis's opera scene was a reimagining of P & W's original final scene. They'd ended their script with Bond in silhouette against the eye of the stage set - a deliberate nod to Fleming's 'the man who was a silhouette.' So, yes, they do know their Fleming, you've got to give them that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.
    I think you have perhaps misunderstood the complaint - it’s that it’s happened too many times before and is becoming a regular thing.

    But Bond films should follow a formula? They should do the same things or not? I don't know which it is.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Agreed, they get too much flak (I'm guilty of it myself). Purvis and Wade are credited to seven films, yet I don't see anyone complaining about Richard Maibaum doing thirteen.

    Richard Maibaum wasn't a saint either. He was always blaming others for not doing his scripts right. Quite a bit of the problems that he had with others, started with the scripts he often wrote. He had more Fleming to adapt, but he was disgustingly full of himself. But he took breaks between films at times. P & W haven't and that drastically needs to change. I don't like to spread complaints on really anything, but this is one complaint that a lot of people have agreed with me on. On Twitter and other social platforms, these two leaving (or taking a break at least) seems to be the number one thing that people want to have changed for the future. I'm happy they helped out though. However, the number one thing that does need to change in Bond's cinematic future is the writing.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Why though? What are your specific issues with them?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    mtm wrote: »
    Why though? What are your specific issues with them?

    Nothing personal, I just think some fresh writing blood is needed for a new Bond. At least they don't openly criticize others for not doing their work right. Richard Maibaum should be ashamed of himself for that.
  • When you think about it, they’re still getting new blood injected into the series whenever they have someone come in and do a rewrite from one of P&W’s scripts. I mean look no further than Casino Royale, Skyfall, and NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Can we start fresh with new everything? I am tired of hearing about P&W and whatever Maibaum did when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Fresh doesn't sound that way when old is attached to it. I don't buy P&W are only ones who know Bond. They are experts on their visions of Bond.

    If we're moving on, then move on.

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    At this point I trust the judgment of the producers.

    They've been unbelievably successful through the years.
  • Posts: 16,162
    As Lance White used to say: "Don't worry. Things have a way of working out. They always do."

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    I look forward to whatever Purvis and Wade come up with. I like their work on Bond.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Can we start fresh with new everything? I am tired of hearing about P&W and whatever Maibaum did when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Fresh doesn't sound that way when old is attached to it. I don't buy P&W are only ones who know Bond. They are experts on their visions of Bond.

    If we're moving on, then move on.

    Yep, move forward, not backward. Stop having Bond resign, or go on the run, or M's past coming back to haunt them. Their three main trademarks.
    At this point I trust the judgment of the producers.

    They've been unbelievably successful through the years.

    Yes, but they need shaking up a bit behind the scenes. The main place that seems to be fixed is the writing department. Take a chance EON!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    The producers have overcome unimagined complications from 2006 to date.

    They will abide.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Why though? What are your specific issues with them?

    Nothing personal, I just think some fresh writing blood is needed for a new Bond. At least they don't openly criticize others for not doing their work right. Richard Maibaum should be ashamed of himself for that.

    But if there’s nothing wrong with them I don’t see the desperate need to lose them.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    They complain about Bond going rogue, as if it's never happened before.
    I think you have perhaps misunderstood the complaint - it’s that it’s happened too many times before and is becoming a regular thing.

    But Bond films should follow a formula? They should do the same things or not? I don't know which it is.
    I really can’t tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding my point or if you are being serious. Assuming that you are genuinely not understanding my position I will go into detail: basic Bond formula is good, with occasional breaks in formula perfectly valid so it’s not a total straitjacket. Basically: setting up a steady rhythm, then breaking that rhythm on occasion is good, imo; when the rhythm-break becomes the rhythm itself, then I have a problem.

    Bond being given a mission is an important part of the James Bond formula; that doesn’t mean I would have a problem with, for example, Bond stumbling into an adventure whilst on holiday, provided it happened just once. If it happened twice in five or six films, though, I would have an issue because it takes something that should be an unusual event for the franchise and overplays it.

    Now I can imagine a lightweight adventure series where the protagonist stumbles onto a dastardly plot by chance every story. Yes it stretches belief in chance, but if this is the formula that the series is based on then I know what I’m in for when I turn up to the film, just the same as I am willing to suspend my disbelief in super-powers when I watch a Superman movie (provided they are consistent with Superman’s mythology - I remember lots of complaining about the liberties Superman 2 took with Kryptonian abilities).

    Bond going rogue for LtK was a nice change in formula for a film, but the more it happens the sillier it feels when everyone takes it so seriously. It’s the same with Bond falling madly in love and considering quitting SIS - it worked very well in C.R., but the more you keep having these life-changing events, the less special they seem. It’s the Empire Strikes Back ‘I am your father’ secret family revelation - great the first time, but to make this sort of revelation a regular thing cheapens it.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,382
    My point is that asking for repetition and then complaining about repetition is a bit of a head scratcher :D

    I don’t think he even really ‘goes rogue’ that often anyway. He takes his own initiative sometimes, but that’s kind of the point of Bond: it’s what we like about him- he sees solutions that other people don’t see. That he sees things his bosses can’t is in keeping with his character and his appeal.
    Dalton ‘went rogue’ in 100% of his films. We enjoyed it and it wasn’t Purvis & Wade’s fault.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited April 2023 Posts: 13,978
    50%, Bond was only rogue in Licence To Kill.
  • Posts: 4,139
    To be fair he does disobey orders quite a bit in TLD. Especially when it comes to choosing not to kill people (ie. Karla, Pushkin).

    I suppose it falls under the banner of taking his own initiative, which is taken to its extremes in the early Craig films.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    He does reassess the situation based on him being an experienced agent, and both times Bond was proved to be correct. And in the case of Kara, that comes from the short story, almost word for word, so isn't out of character for Bond. Bond going rogue, as he does in LTK is substantially different.

    What should be far, far worse, imo, is rookie Bond breaking into M’s home in CR.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,382
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair he does disobey orders quite a bit in TLD. Especially when it comes to choosing not to kill people (ie. Karla, Pushkin).

    I suppose it falls under the banner of taking his own initiative, which is taken to its extremes in the early Craig films.

    Exactly: if we’re saying he ‘goes rogue’ in QoS (where he’s literally ‘rogue’ for less than a minute of screen time in the hotel) or SF (where he actually just takes some time off then reports back for duty) then he’s certainly rogue in TLD where he actively disobeys M’s orders. M even has a shout at him and threatens to replace him with 008 (as he did in GF too). As if I’d forget that TLD exists :D
    Bond is always proven to be correct in all of these cases, because he’s Bond. It’s his character and his appeal.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Plus, 00s aren't yes sir/no sir, by-the-book functionaries, right? They're given their mission and it's largely down to them and their skills and wits how they achieve their objectives. That's a big part of the appeal, no?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,382
    As I understand that's literally what the licence to kill is: he isn't required to check back with M to authorise a kill but is trusted to make the right decision.
    In QoS the problem is M tries to micro-manage what he's doing, but she realises that she should have been trusting him more because he's not gone rogue at all. She thinks he's after revenge for Vesper, but is reading him wrong.
    He does reassess the situation based on him being an experienced agent, and both times Bond was proved to be correct. And in the case of Kara, that comes from the short story, almost word for word, so isn't out of character for Bond. Bond going rogue, as he does in LTK is substantially different.

    What should be far, far worse, imo, is rookie Bond breaking into M’s home in CR.

    Well, no: Bond's decision in the book of TLD was made out of no reason at all other than he'd had an imagined long distance romance with the girl- his decision to disobey his orders is purely sentimental and nothing to do with his duty at all: the movie gives him more of a professional and mission-based reason not to kill her, which I tend to prefer. In the films he generally does everything because he believes it's right for the mission: breaking into M's flat is less irrational than refusing to carry out his orders to kill Trigger.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Venutius wrote: »
    QOS is the nearest thing Dan had to a P & W-free script. Forster junked their script early on, although Haggis's opera scene was a reimagining of P & W's original final scene. They'd ended their script with Bond in silhouette against the eye of the stage set - a deliberate nod to Fleming's 'the man who was a silhouette.' So, yes, they do know their Fleming, you've got to give them that.

    I love the ending we got for QOS, but that sounds amazing. Probably one of my all time favourite Fleming quotes
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair he does disobey orders quite a bit in TLD. Especially when it comes to choosing not to kill people (ie. Karla, Pushkin).

    I suppose it falls under the banner of taking his own initiative, which is taken to its extremes in the early Craig films.

    Exactly: if we’re saying he ‘goes rogue’ in QoS (where he’s literally ‘rogue’ for less than a minute of screen time in the hotel) or SF (where he actually just takes some time off then reports back for duty) then he’s certainly rogue in TLD where he actively disobeys M’s orders. M even has a shout at him and threatens to replace him with 008 (as he did in GF too). As if I’d forget that TLD exists :D
    Bond is always proven to be correct in all of these cases, because he’s Bond. It’s his character and his appeal.
    In QoS rather than tell M that he didn’t kill the Special Branch Officer, he just makes a smart remark, and as a consequence M orders him home and cancels his passport and credit cards. From that point until the end of the film he has gone rogue. From then on he’s without official support, is chased by the CIA, and is forced to rely on personal relationships, new and old, for support in the field. We have that bit where M says she wants him back and he says he never left. Yes he’s saying he was simply pursuing the mission, but M obviously has considered him rogue until then.

    In LtK, QoS, DaD, and Spectre, Bond is rogue rather than things suffering ‘mission creep’ and M being annoyed. I honestly don’t remember TLD well enough to say for sure, by I don’t remember M doing anything as drastic to stop Bond as in the previously mentioned four films.
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