Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited July 2023 Posts: 2,266
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @007ClassicBondFan

    I’ve written about my dislike for Cruise, which first arose when I was a kid and I hated Top Gun. I was the only one in my group of friends who couldn’t stand the flick. And my dislike has only grown over time, including hearing stories leak out about him from my friends who are below-line talent on some of his films.

    Saying that, I still am happy people derive great pleasure from his films, and he’s committed to providing the best possible entertainment. He takes that job absolutely seriously and he delivers.

    But as I’ve recently told people: I will likely never watch another Tom Cruise film again… I say “likely”, leaving the door open by half an inch. But it certainly won’t be TG, nor a Mission film (although I’ve enjoyed all your reports on the film; it’s been interesting reading through the posts).

    So you weren’t necessarily a fan during that period where he took on some of his most acclaimed work correct? Like “A Few Good Men”, or “Eyes Wide Shut” amongst others, because I kind of find it a tad bit disappointing that Cruise seems to have developed a preference for these types of blockbuster films, and he doesn’t seem all that interested in going back to the type of work directors got out of him in the 90’s.

    I’m tainted, @007ClassicBondFan , and I have tried to get over my dislike.

    In the end, I just don’t find him authentic/genuine. He’s play acting (to me), and I can see his tricks. I feel he’s so bloody constrained and every movement is mapped out well in advanced.

    I did think Paul Anderson came the closest to getting Cruise to lose his “star-shine” and let loose in Magnolia. That’s the closest he’s got, for me, to playing a human character. Otherwise I see him as a facsimile of a “human”.



    Fair enough, I actually agree. When compared to some of his contemporaries, like Brad Pitt, or Leonardo DiCaprio, Cruise falls a bit by the wayside, and even as an action hero, I don’t find Ethan Hunt to be as compelling as Bond or Jason Bourne, and I think that’s down to him just being Tom Cruise. I don’t think Cruise loses himself in the role the way Craig did with Bond, or Matt Damon as Bourne, or even Keanu Reeves as John Wick.

    I think it's quite interesting that when he's promoting these movies you don't generally hear him talk about how he loves playing the character of Ethan Hunt (as opposed to Craig, who I feel would say that quite often). I can't remember ever hearing him say that in fact: but he does always talk about how he loves making those movies. I think that's fine: Hunt isn't supposed to be an answer to Bond.

    I think Jason Bourne was much more of an answer to Bond than Ethan Hunt is. I remember a lot of interviews with both Matt Damon and Paul Greengrass where they publicly trashed the character of Bond, and his world, which I always found a bit distasteful. Greengrass kind of walked back on some of those remarks in recent years due to how successful the Craig era was, but at least with Mission Impossible, Tom Cruise is willing to admit the Bond influence. I remember seeing a red carpet interview where he mentioned that he is a fan like everyone else. I think MI is Cruise’s way of making an action spectacle like Bond, not riffing the character per say.
  • Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    Must say, while TG:M was popular, this is not a million miles away from what I've heard people outside these forums say about Cruise, both as an actor and a human being. Again, I certainly don't think he has quite the same affection for him as Craig as Bond did, or Reeves as John Wick does.

    In a sense it's similar to how I've noticed some people view the Fast and Furious films. People watch and enjoy them, but don't overly like The Rock or Jason Statham or even Vin Diesel to a great extent (honestly, a joke amongst my friends is that there's a well known clause in all these actor's contracts supposedly that means none of them can get beaten up fully in a fight by one another onscreen. Obviously when you compare that to Reeves in the John Wick films or Craig in his Bond films/the hits they take, again onscreen, in those movies it makes them all seem like egotistical idiots). Maybe that's what something like Bond has over these franchises - the strength of the lead actor to be that correct screen presence.

    If there is one franchise I despise more than anything else, it’s The Fast and Furious series, and it doesn’t have really anything to do with the actors involved in those movies, I just can’t stand those films period. But what I think Bond has over the likes of John Wick, Mission Impossible, or F&F is style and longevity. I remember when the Bourne films were at the height of their popularity, people just dismissed Bond as passé and outdated. But which one is still thriving to this day? Not Bourne.

    Indeed. Bond has an adaptability to it. It has an ability to take what is popular or at least in the zeitgeist in contemporary films/culture and mould it to their character. It's a unique series in that sense, and it outlives any single actor or even filmmaker. Closest thing I can think that does this is Dr. Who.
    peter wrote: »
    @007HallY , please lump me in with the others who don’t like The Rock and Vin Diesel. And I tried to watch one of the FF films with my son a long time ago. I checked out inside of ten minutes, never to watch another of these ever again!

    They are wonderful films to watch whilst drunk with friends (perhaps because one doesn't always remember much of them, at least in great detail) but I highly suspect not to watch to bond with your son on a weekend. But yes, they are terrible, and the lead actors do not have the charisma or screen presence that Bond/Wick does.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @mtm i absolutely believe his love of the movies. It’s been his entire life, his education, his job, his everything. He is richer than god, needs not one more pay check and could live another life in great comfort.

    And you’re right: he, like other Hollywood-lifers, are never “normal”, 😂!
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 133
    peter wrote: »
    My issues with him truly started with Top Gun. I just didn’t understand the love for the film
    I can relate to that, I think fighter jet movies are pretty boring, almost as boring as boxing movies. 😂
    I would eventually watch the Top Gun movies only because I like the work of both directors (Tony Scott and Joseph Kosinski) in general. Also, I'm a fan of composer Harold Faltermeyer's work.
    peter wrote: »
    I liked the first, and loathed the second.
    I like the second (looks like I'm the only one 😂) because I really like John Woo movies, even though I must admit his earlier work was much better.

    I'm not a fan of the films of Cruise in general, but I really like his performance in "Collateral", one of my favorite movies.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,152
    I remember a lot of interviews with both Matt Damon and Paul Greengrass where they publicly trashed the character of Bond, and his world, which I always found a bit distasteful.
    Whereas Doug Liman, who personally bought the film rights for The Bourne Identity from Robert Ludlum, who cast Matt Damon against type and basically created the cinematic Bourne, said that the reason he made the Bourne Identity was because he wanted to direct a Bond film but he knew that EON would never ask him to do it. I still wonder what Liman would've done with the sequels if he hadn't been blackballed by Universal.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 348
    Venutius wrote: »
    I remember a lot of interviews with both Matt Damon and Paul Greengrass where they publicly trashed the character of Bond, and his world, which I always found a bit distasteful.
    Whereas Doug Liman, who personally bought the film rights for The Bourne Identity from Robert Ludlum, who cast Matt Damon against type and basically created the cinematic Bourne, said that the reason he made the Bourne Identity was because he wanted to direct a Bond film but he knew that EON would never ask him to do it. I still wonder what Liman would've done with the sequels if he hadn't been blackballed by Universal.

    Liman productions are famously nightmares that have to be saved by editors/second units/etc...
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Well, that's Universal's line, anyway. But one example: the farmhouse scene in The Bourne Identity. Not bad, right? Universal decided to scrap it ad have it re-written it as a shootout on the streets of Paris. Liman filmed that, didn't like it and decided to reinstate the farmhouse scene himself. Universal kicked off and told him explicitly that he wasn't to shoot it. Liman did it anyway. That's what got him blacklisted. But he was right - The Bourne Identity's a better film for having that sequence in it, right?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 2023 Posts: 9,509
    M_Blaise wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    I remember a lot of interviews with both Matt Damon and Paul Greengrass where they publicly trashed the character of Bond, and his world, which I always found a bit distasteful.
    Whereas Doug Liman, who personally bought the film rights for The Bourne Identity from Robert Ludlum, who cast Matt Damon against type and basically created the cinematic Bourne, said that the reason he made the Bourne Identity was because he wanted to direct a Bond film but he knew that EON would never ask him to do it. I still wonder what Liman would've done with the sequels if he hadn't been blackballed by Universal.

    Liman productions are famously nightmares that have to be saved by editors/second units/etc...

    You're right about this @M_Blaise ..are you in the film industry?

    I know a second unit director who was the uncredited director of one of Liman's flicks after the two stars on that project wanted nothing to do with him!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Yeah, Sean Penn famously wanted nothing to do with Liman during Fair Game and wouldn't even speak to him afterwards. Jon Favreau said that Liman basically hijacked Swingers by getting his dad to stump up the money on condition that Doug directed it. On the other hand, Matt Damon said that Liman saved his career, Brad Pitt insisted that Liman direct Mr and Mrs Smith despite the studio's objections and Tom Cruise gets on so well with him that they're planning their third film together. Mileage varies, I guess.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yeah, Sean Penn famously wanted nothing to do with Liman during Fair Game and wouldn't even speak to him afterwards. Jon Favreau said that Liman basically hijacked Swingers by getting his dad to stump up the money on condition that Doug directed it. On the other hand, Matt Damon said that Liman saved his career, Brad Pitt insisted that Liman direct Mr and Mrs Smith despite the studio's objections and Tom Cruise gets on so well with him that they're planning their third film together. Mileage varies, I guess.

    @Venutius , I didn’t know Penn felt that way too.

    I’m actually talking about one specific actor that you mentioned; another actor you mentioned also has a history in the story I was told, and the third actor you didn’t reference. So we have conflicting tales, 😂. All I know is that the second unit director of a Liman flick, a friend of mine, was the one who told me, and, …. It sounded like one helluva shoot.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    😆 Excellent, Peter - I've heard many stories about Doug Liman over the years, but there's obviously plenty more that haven't become public, eh! Good one. But, anyway, point is, Damon and Greengrass have slagged off Bond over the years, but Liman never has. Quite the contrary. Given the impact that The Bourne Identity had, it's always struck me as both ironic and amusing that it would never even have been made if Liman hadn't been looking for a Bond substitute!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    peter wrote: »
    In ‘87 I was 13, so I probably wasn’t aware of Cruise’s affiliation until much later….

    @007ClassicBondFan , I agree with everything you said. And I always thought Brad Pitt to be a character actor stuck in a Hollywood hunk’s body. I’m usually very impressed with Pitt (not all the time, but when he’s good, he’s excellent).

    DiCaprio is a really curious and intuitive actor, and has made a career of choosing a vast array of films.

    @MakeshiftPython , wow, I didn’t know Bale had said this. That’s pretty scary, 😂!

    @007HallY , please lump me in with the others who don’t like The Rock and Vin Diesel. And I tried to watch one of the FF films with my son a long time ago. I checked out inside of ten minutes, never to watch another of these ever again!

    Peter, we are about the same age, and I couldn't agree with you more about Cruise. I remember seeing him emerge in the '80s.

    To me, he's a hollow, untalented, creepy actor. I've never understood the hype: he's like a shiny object that begs for attention. I guess he's attractive in kind of a doll-like way but there's no there there. I'm sure it has to do with Scientology indoctrination because they have chosen him and boosted his career.

    I've tried to engage so many times with Cruise over the decades, over so many films. He just seems like an eager boy who is play-acting, aiming to please, every single time. Whatever people want to see in him they can: ambition, blackmail, closetedness. Who knows what drives him? He's a robot.

    Incidentally, the one film where I thought I saw a glimpse behind the Oz-like-curtain that is CruiseCo was Eyes Wide Shut. I think Kubrick's famously punishing multiple takes and whatever was going on with his much more talented then-wife wore him down despite all of his Scientology indoctrination.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 2023 Posts: 9,509
    @echo …. We are twins, my friend. I hate slamming actors or flicks that people get enjoyment from, but, man, you nailed my feelings exactly. Perfectly summarizes my dislike and discomfort ! Wow.

  • Posts: 1,985
    Dear moderator(s): Perhaps you can start a "hate Tom Cruise" thread, as all the vitriol directed toward TC has nothing to do with Bond 26.
  • Posts: 937
    What's the point in hating anything, especially a person you don't know. B26 depends on the what the producers want to go with.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 2023 Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Dear moderator(s): Perhaps you can start a "hate Tom Cruise" thread, as all the vitriol directed toward TC has nothing to do with Bond 26.

    Oh brother… I hope you’re taking the mickey and you’re not actually offended? Two people went off course, in a thread where many people have lost the plot and gone on tangents… There was a grand total of two posts about Tom Cruise this morning. Two.

    And vitriol? No, two guys don’t like Cruise because, in their opinion he’s an empty suit. That’s it.

    However, prior to these two comments, I was asked about my feelings about the actor, as you can well see. I politely answered with a caveat that my view is tainted… And then @echo gave his opinion. Two posts (plus others asking my opinion).

    Instead of this approach that you took (what was your intent with your post? Embarrassing others? Shaming? What?), you could have simply DM’d the offending parties if you were truly that offended, 😂
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2023 Posts: 6,296
    I hope that the next actor brings an interior life to Bond, unlike, I don't know, any Tom Cruise performance?

    For me, one of the most memorable scenes in CR is right after Bond beats Le Chiffre, when he's having a late dinner with Vesper. You can see Craig's Bond enjoying himself and the food and letting his guard down with her.

    *That's* what I want in the next Bond actor.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I know it's a wonderful world of opinions and everything but even with the very valid reasoning of not liking Scientology, I find it absolutely insane to imply that Cruise is not talented as an actor. He's veered towards embracing the idea of being "cinema's last great star" of late but he's more than proven his abilities as a dramatic actor in decades past.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I think Cruise is a good actor, but I totally get what people don’t like about him. There can be at times a very “try hard” element to his acting that can feel artificial to the point that it breaks the immersion.
  • Posts: 1,985
    @Peter Of course I'm not offended. I merely expressed an opinion. My intent? A discussion of Cruise is better suited for another thread. No need to DM you as I didn't mention you.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Brilliant!
  • Posts: 727
    If Nolan directs the next bond movie does that mean Hoyte van Hoytema will be back behind the lens again? 🤔🥲
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,031
    If Nolan directs the next bond movie does that mean Hoyte van Hoytema will be back behind the lens again? 🤔🥲

    I would be fine with that… he’s very talented. It’s just that Spectre wasn’t one of his better projects. That being said, Rome, Austria, and especially Morocco look great in SP.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I’m one of the few fans of SP’s cinematography. It honestly just strikes me than fans don’t like it because it doesn’t conform to how older Bond films used to look.

    It’s a matter of “does it fit the franchise?” rather than “does it fit the film?” The former is more concerned of keeping the franchise in a uniform fashion. That’s why we get so many arguments over the gun barrel because these filmmakers have been tinkering with it rather than just having it be the same exact gun barrel used across multiple films.
  • Posts: 133
    To be honest, I'm kinda worried with the Nolan rumors.
    For one, I'm not really a fan of his movies (with a few exceptions). Also, and this worries me even more, his style is too close to what we already have seen during the Craig era. Sometimes I think SF does even feel a bit like a Nolan movie.
    It's time for a new and fresh direction, and I just can't see this with Nolan at the helm.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I’m one of the few fans of SP’s cinematography. It honestly just strikes me than fans don’t like it because it doesn’t conform to how older Bond films used to look.

    I've never had an issue with it. I think it looks good and there's some stylish shots in there. It doesn't look quite as stunning as its predecessor, but that's okay because that was an uncommonly good-looking film, probably the best-shot Bond film.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited July 2023 Posts: 1,031
    Agreed. Like okay Mexico City was too yellow, sure, but the rest of the film is pretty sharp looking.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,789
    The Italian Chase between Bond and Mr. Hinx always looked glamorous and vibrant and I also liked the Austrian scenes, I think there's still a bit of good cinematography in there, the only part I didn't liked is in London scenes in the finale, as I felt it's a bit dull.

    Sure, it's better than QoS (still the least in terms of cinematography).

    I may not be also a fan of NTTD cinematography, for me, I felt the majority of the film's scenes are dark, the London scenes, the Cuba scenes and the finale at Safin's lair, I felt it's too dark, same for the Norway Chase, I felt that there's this dark blue-ish green (or is it torquoise color?) filter all around it.
  • Posts: 1,985
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The Italian Chase between Bond and Mr. Hinx always looked glamorous and vibrant and I also liked the Austrian scenes, I think there's still a bit of good cinematography in there, the only part I didn't liked is in London scenes in the finale, as I felt it's a bit dull.

    Sure, it's better than QoS (still the least in terms of cinematography).

    I may not be also a fan of NTTD cinematography, for me, I felt the majority of the film's scenes are dark, the Cuba scenes and the finale at Safin's lair, I felt it's too dark, same for the Norway Chase, I felt that there's this dark blue-ish green (or is it torquoise color?) filter all around it.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the London scenes being dull. Hopefully you can expand on that.

    But I do wish the Bond films would show London and the U.K. more love. I would like to see Bond out and about in London more. Sometimes in a series or film a city almost becomes an extra character.



  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The Italian Chase between Bond and Mr. Hinx always looked glamorous and vibrant and I also liked the Austrian scenes, I think there's still a bit of good cinematography in there, the only part I didn't liked is in London scenes in the finale, as I felt it's a bit dull.

    Sure, it's better than QoS (still the least in terms of cinematography).

    I may not be also a fan of NTTD cinematography, for me, I felt the majority of the film's scenes are dark, the Cuba scenes and the finale at Safin's lair, I felt it's too dark, same for the Norway Chase, I felt that there's this dark blue-ish green (or is it torquoise color?) filter all around it.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the London scenes being dull. Hopefully you can expand on that.

    But I do wish the Bond films would show London and the U.K. more love. I would like to see Bond out and about in London more. Sometimes in a series or film a city almost becomes an extra character.



    The Hildebrand Safehouse scene, those shots in the old abandoned MI6 building, the death of C, yes, I think the cinematography in those are a bit dull, those are shot at night the same as the ones in the Italian scenes before, but here in the London scenes, they've failed to pulled it.

    That whole London third act scenes.

    I think they've nailed the beauty of London and UK in Skyfall though.
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