Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,167
    I suppose another problem is that after 60 years of Bond films the impact of Drax being the main baddie with ulterior motives/a secret past is diluted a bit. There wouldn’t be much questioning - most viewers would pretty much know he’s the villain and some of the novel’s original mystery wouldn’t quite be there.

    I do feel for the producers. They have to keep things fresh while also still maintaining that Bond formula/deference to the novels. MR’s a tricky book to adapt faithfully today in that sense.
  • Posts: 1,369
    007HallY wrote: »
    MR’s one of those novels that I think works best…. well, as a novel frankly. It’s my favourite Fleming book for context, certainly very re-readable, and there’s some very mould breaking but interesting stuff in there.

    For a film version, however, I’m just not sure if all that much would be added by showing us Bond’s desk work. Stuff would have to be heavily adapted (ie. The reason for Bond investigating the Moonraker project with the suicide of one of the workers I fear would play a bit flimsy in a film as it has little pay off in itself, and is only recounted through dialogue). As thrilling as the car chase with the newspaper lorry is on the page too I think it’d have to be amped up for the screen. Same for the climax which amounts to Bond and Gala talking for about 5 minutes, getting burned, and then recalibrating the Moonraker which isn’t very cinematic. The escape with the blowtorch I suspect would look a bit daft onscreen too. So I can see why it’s not a novel that’s had a faithful attempt at adaptation in the same way other novels had.

    There are, however, passages that can inspire a scriptwriter and indeed seemingly have done. The description of Bond in Blades as this un-English, almost out of place figure could be adapted visually with Bond in an environment where maybe he’s being viewed by people with suspicion and he himself is out of his comfort zone. Of course QOS took the concept of Bond brazenly saying he’d kill himself during the hotel climax of that film, in a way that was much more cinematic and emotionally resonate.

    Casino Royale had less.

  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,167
    007HallY wrote: »
    MR’s one of those novels that I think works best…. well, as a novel frankly. It’s my favourite Fleming book for context, certainly very re-readable, and there’s some very mould breaking but interesting stuff in there.

    For a film version, however, I’m just not sure if all that much would be added by showing us Bond’s desk work. Stuff would have to be heavily adapted (ie. The reason for Bond investigating the Moonraker project with the suicide of one of the workers I fear would play a bit flimsy in a film as it has little pay off in itself, and is only recounted through dialogue). As thrilling as the car chase with the newspaper lorry is on the page too I think it’d have to be amped up for the screen. Same for the climax which amounts to Bond and Gala talking for about 5 minutes, getting burned, and then recalibrating the Moonraker which isn’t very cinematic. The escape with the blowtorch I suspect would look a bit daft onscreen too. So I can see why it’s not a novel that’s had a faithful attempt at adaptation in the same way other novels had.

    There are, however, passages that can inspire a scriptwriter and indeed seemingly have done. The description of Bond in Blades as this un-English, almost out of place figure could be adapted visually with Bond in an environment where maybe he’s being viewed by people with suspicion and he himself is out of his comfort zone. Of course QOS took the concept of Bond brazenly saying he’d kill himself during the hotel climax of that film, in a way that was much more cinematic and emotionally resonate.

    Casino Royale had less.

    Exactly. And look how much work went into making it work for the screen. The first half of that film is original and has essentially nothing to do with the book. When we do get to adapting the novel much is changed in order to make it more visual (the sinking house sequence replacing Vesper’s ‘off page’ death is a big example). Only a chunk of that film is technically speaking the book.

    I mean, it’s also worth saying that even with this in mind, CR is a very unique Bond novel, and in 2006 seeing things like Vesper’s death, Bond getting tortured/winding up in hospital etc. felt very fresh. Most of MR’s similar mould breaking draws - Bond and the girl parting ways at the end being an example - are things that have already been seen in the Craig era. I don’t think a MR adaptation would have the same impact in this way. It wouldn’t feel as fresh.

    I mean, if they want to adapt chunks of the novel - M inviting Bond to thwart a cheat at Blades, Bond investigating that man etc. then that’s fine, but it’s going to be in the context of a much grander story and won’t be quite the faithful adaptation I think people expect.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,427
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I really don't want to see Bond narrowly escaping a CGI cliff conveniently falling all around him, nor do I want to see Bond at a desk for more than 5 seconds. It's my favorite novel, but I agree that it would be more difficult, almost uninspired to adapt than many on here seem to suggest. You could add layers for sure... Bond could think there's a mole in MI6, hence some inner-office sleuthing we've never seen before, only becuase they refuse to accept Drax could be the mole for the first act, etc. until Bond discovers the truth or whatever. It can be elevated, for sure, but it would take just as much, if not more creative work than what's already on the page to enhance it, imo.

    I guess that's the problem really: wanting a supposedly 'faithful' adaptation of any of these just isn't really going to cut it anymore because Bond has outgrown the novels- 007 is something different to most people now and they expect a bit more.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose another problem is that after 60 years of Bond films the impact of Drax being the main baddie with ulterior motives/a secret past is diluted a bit. There wouldn’t be much questioning - most viewers would pretty much know he’s the villain and some of the novel’s original mystery wouldn’t quite be there.

    I do feel for the producers. They have to keep things fresh while also still maintaining that Bond formula/deference to the novels. MR’s a tricky book to adapt faithfully today in that sense.

    Yeah that's my overall feeling about it too: it doesn't really have the freshness of when it came out now- we've seen too many villains like Drax and with plans which are very similar. Sure, a lot of those got ripped off from MR directly (Horowitz's own Stormbreaker is a case in point) but that just means that a baddie with a rocket is perhaps not the most gripping concept. Creasy points out some great stuff in there, but maybe it's best to cherry pick those.
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    MR’s one of those novels that I think works best…. well, as a novel frankly. It’s my favourite Fleming book for context, certainly very re-readable, and there’s some very mould breaking but interesting stuff in there.

    For a film version, however, I’m just not sure if all that much would be added by showing us Bond’s desk work. Stuff would have to be heavily adapted (ie. The reason for Bond investigating the Moonraker project with the suicide of one of the workers I fear would play a bit flimsy in a film as it has little pay off in itself, and is only recounted through dialogue). As thrilling as the car chase with the newspaper lorry is on the page too I think it’d have to be amped up for the screen. Same for the climax which amounts to Bond and Gala talking for about 5 minutes, getting burned, and then recalibrating the Moonraker which isn’t very cinematic. The escape with the blowtorch I suspect would look a bit daft onscreen too. So I can see why it’s not a novel that’s had a faithful attempt at adaptation in the same way other novels had.

    There are, however, passages that can inspire a scriptwriter and indeed seemingly have done. The description of Bond in Blades as this un-English, almost out of place figure could be adapted visually with Bond in an environment where maybe he’s being viewed by people with suspicion and he himself is out of his comfort zone. Of course QOS took the concept of Bond brazenly saying he’d kill himself during the hotel climax of that film, in a way that was much more cinematic and emotionally resonate.

    Casino Royale had less.

    Exactly. And look how much work went into making it work for the screen. The first half of that film is original and has essentially nothing to do with the book. When we do get to adapting the novel much is changed in order to make it more visual (the sinking house sequence replacing Vesper’s ‘off page’ death is a big example). Only a chunk of that film is technically speaking the book.

    I mean, it’s also worth saying that even with this in mind, CR is a very unique Bond novel, and in 2006 seeing things like Vesper’s death, Bond getting tortured/winding up in hospital etc. felt very fresh. Most of MR’s similar mould breaking draws - Bond and the girl parting ways at the end being an example - are things that have already been seen in the Craig era. I don’t think a MR adaptation would have the same impact in this way. It wouldn’t feel as fresh.

    Yes, CR is a very unconventional Bond story, and I do wonder if they even would have adapted it earlier if they could have; it also has the advantage of a totally bonkers central premise of Bond gambling a man to death, which pretty much holds up through any adaptation and feels startling fresh. Moonraker was fresh at the time, but it's pretty much the template for most Bond stories which came after, and that's more of a problem. A seemingly benevolent wealthy industrialist who turns out to secretly be a diabolical mastermind with a superweapon plotting the downfall of England: well we've that've done that story countless times. And it's been done with a spin each time to make it fresh; MR didn't need that spin as it was the first, but compared to what came later it feels a little anaemic.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 1,369
    Casino Royale works fine as adaptation. Where is the problem?

    Anyway, James Bond in the 50's is fresh enough.
  • Casino Royale works fine as adaptation. Where is the problem?

    Casino Royale also added/updated elements for its film adaptation, whereas I think some people want to literally see the book on screen word for word, page for page.
  • Posts: 1,369
    Casino Royale works fine as adaptation. Where is the problem?

    Casino Royale also added/updated elements for its film adaptation, whereas I think some people want to literally see the book on screen word for word, page for page.

    All movies have more girls, more action... nothing new here.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2023 Posts: 6,304
    The issue with MR, aside from many of the elements already having been adapted (including the cliff collapsing--it's in DAD as a glacier), is that it's almost *too* timely. A casual viewer would see Drax and his privatized missile and think, "Yep, he's inspired by Elon Musk."

    I don't see a lot in, say, DAF, that there is left to adapt. The train. And Wint and Kidd kicking Bond. Same with LALD.

    TMWTGG has a bit more left, and I expect they'll slot those scenes in when the time comes.
  • Posts: 1,369
    They killed Craig's Bond twice. We can have 2 LALD.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited October 2023 Posts: 4,638
    Let's say that Nolan does direct Bond 26 and it is a faithful adaptation of a Fleming novel, set in the past. Which Fleming novels do you think would be the most likely candiates to be turned into Bond 26? Let's speculate! I can imagine several different approaches:

    1. Adapting them in order. Very unlikely as CR was pretty recently already turned into a highly acclaimed film that was pretty faithful to the novel.
    2. Blofeld trilogy. Pretty unlikely, IMHO, for two reasons: Blofeld was already in the last two Bond films. And although YOLT has not had a faithful adaptation yet, TB did have one that followed the novel relatively closely, and OHMSS had an even more faithful adaptation already.
    3. Adapting a book that has not been faithfully adaptated yet. As some have said before, Moonraker might be the most likely candidate of this category.

    What do you think?

    I think if Nolan is in charge it will be an original story. He is almost too much of a fan to adapt a full novel. He'll definitely take a few references from Fleming's books. With Blofeld, it would be shocking to me (in particular if he writes and directs more than one), if Nolan didn't use him as a villain in some way or another. Considering his love for OHMSS and TSWLM, which has a Blofeld-like villain. Thanks, Kevin McClory.
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, I think it’s gonna have to be an original story, no matter how inspired by parts of the novels.

    Honestly, the closest thing I can imagine story wise to a period piece Bond 26 directed by Nolan is Forever and a Day. I’m not actually the biggest fan of that novel incidentally, but it’s got some interesting ideas (certainly a much stronger female lead than what Nolan usually offers).

    I keep saying that's one novel that should be adapted for Bond 26 or a Bond reboot in general. Anthony Horowitz could help write it, as long as it's set in modern day, ironically. Nolan hasn't really dealt with villains dealing drugs, aside to a minor degree in Batman Begins.

    The continuation novel I'd like to see Nolan adapt is Carte Blanche. It's a Bond origin story. A doomsday machine is the villain('s) main goal. Doomsday machines are a recurring theme in Nolan movies. Lastly, it has an ensemble cast. That could have bigger roles in sequels. Nolan always has a great cast of ensemble greats. I'd like to see Mary Goodnight get a cinematic redemption. Felix Leiter can get a true action scene for the first time since LTK. It's time for another female villain, in Felicity Willing. Lastly, I'd like to see Severan Hydt his curly beard and hair, and his long fingernails.



    I'd support her as Q, also as Charmian Bond or May. Maybe even in the future as M.
  • SeanoSeano Minnesota. No, it's not always cold.
    Posts: 44
    I had an idea of a Solo-DAF novel mashup where the first half of Solo (Bond infiltrates an African civil war) is married up with the back half of the DAF novel (as the Spangs turn out to be the billionaires funding the rebels with the intent of controlling the country's diamonds).
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    Seano wrote: »
    I had an idea of a Solo-DAF novel mashup where the first half of Solo (Bond infiltrates an African civil war) is married up with the back half of the DAF novel (as the Spangs turn out to be the billionaires funding the rebels with the intent of controlling the country's diamonds).

    I like it, it would need an original title though. Thanks Star Wars. Solo would make for an older Bond's later film(s). As long as we have the train set, I support your idea.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,813
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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    I'm still desperate to see Vivienne Michel and the motel shootout in The Spy Who Loved Me on screen.

    Sorry, folks, this is coming from someone who's not a fan of the film version.

    And anyways, Fleming's dead long time ago, I think they could do it now.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,167
    I’ve always said the concept of Bond rescuing a Bond girl through fate in the PTS has potential. You could have a flash forward after in which the rest of the film is about the main villains tracking down the Bond girl and trying to kill her (perhaps she attained some sort of Mcguffin they need during the PTS, perhaps she simply knows too much about their thwarted plan etc). The girl in turn tries to find Bond in order to protect her, and they both uncover a bigger plan.

    Not saying the PTS has to take place in a Canadian motel, but the broad concept is interesting. TSWLM’s a weird novel for me anyway. It actually has a lot going for it, and Fleming does a broadly good job writing through a female character. The end is sort of bungled though. Fleming seems to be trying to hammer home the point that Bond is not a typical hero, that he’s a man involved in a dangerous profession and is one step away from some of the villains he faces. He shouldn’t be idolised and certainly Viv, a woman known for easily falling in love with men who toss her aside, shouldn’t fall for him. A policeman at the end even outright says this. One would expect her to realise this by the end and come to terms with it, but instead she sort of dismisses the policeman’s words that she has any such ‘scars’ and that she loves Bond. So in that way there’s room to do a lot with a Viv type character that the book didn’t quite do.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 95
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Seano wrote: »
    I had an idea of a Solo-DAF novel mashup where the first half of Solo (Bond infiltrates an African civil war) is married up with the back half of the DAF novel (as the Spangs turn out to be the billionaires funding the rebels with the intent of controlling the country's diamonds).

    I like it, it would need an original title though. Thanks Star Wars. Solo would make for an older Bond's later film(s). As long as we have the train set, I support your idea.

    It's a lame title anyway.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I’ve always said the concept of Bond rescuing a Bond girl through fate in the PTS has potential. You could have a flash forward after in which the rest of the film is about the main villains tracking down the Bond girl and trying to kill her (perhaps she attained some sort of Mcguffin they need during the PTS, perhaps she simply knows too much about their thwarted plan etc). The girl in turn tries to find Bond in order to protect her, and they both uncover a bigger plan.

    Not saying the PTS has to take place in a Canadian motel, but the broad concept is interesting. TSWLM’s a weird novel for me anyway. It actually has a lot going for it, and Fleming does a broadly good job writing through a female character. The end is sort of bungled though. Fleming seems to be trying to hammer home the point that Bond is not a typical hero, that he’s a man involved in a dangerous profession and is one step away from some of the villains he faces. He shouldn’t be idolised and certainly Viv, a woman known for easily falling in love with men who toss her aside, shouldn’t fall for him. A policeman at the end even outright says this. One would expect her to realise this by the end and come to terms with it, but instead she sort of dismisses the policeman’s words that she has any such ‘scars’ and that she loves Bond. So in that way there’s room to do a lot with a Viv type character that the book didn’t quite do.

    Excellent points.

  • Posts: 1,078
    I'd love the introduction of the new Bond to be Viv's reaction to him as she answers the door. If I remember right she thought he was just another thug gangster coming out the shadows. Something like 'oh god, not another one'.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    When I think about it, there is maybe 40-50% of MR left to adapt. So much has already gone into other films, like the bald heads in TWINE. That being said, Eon didn't let the two previous CR adaptations stop them, and we got a classic as result.

    This may be an unpopular opinion, but I really don't like the flower-dying exchange that recurs and ends MR. It makes the "little finger" dialogue in CR look like Shakespeare by comparison.

    I think they'd have to update it somehow, and as others have said, they already did the MR ending in QoS.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,649
    I genuinely want to see them tackle the monster-fighting finale of Dr. No. I think you could have Bond fight a trapped giant squid with a knife and have it feel brutal and threatening, if done right and in an otherwise excellent film that builds up to it properly. But I think it has to be a surprise. Bond defeats the villain or whatever, escapes into the water, only to be met by one last surprise. Our hero, nearly drowning, pierced by the tentacles of the monster, bloodied and soaked, knife clenched in his teeth, uses everything he has to make it out alive. I'd love it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2023 Posts: 18,281
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I genuinely want to see them tackle the monster-fighting finale of Dr. No. I think you could have Bond fight a trapped giant squid with a knife and have it feel brutal and threatening, if done right and in an otherwise excellent film that builds up to it properly. But I think it has to be a surprise. Bond defeats the villain or whatever, escapes into the water, only to be met by one last surprise. Our hero, nearly drowning, pierced by the tentacles of the monster, bloodied and soaked, knife clenched in his teeth, uses everything he has to make it out alive. I'd love it.

    It would be nice (the low budget of Dr. No forbade it) but I'm sure that the vocal animal rights lobby would have a field day with that were it ever filmed! It'd be just another straw on the back of the overburdened James Bond donkey. That said, Dr No's whole assault course could be filmed as the film version didn't really feature anything from it at all - it was just hot water in a tunnel and nothing more premeditated or sinister.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,427
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I genuinely want to see them tackle the monster-fighting finale of Dr. No. I think you could have Bond fight a trapped giant squid with a knife and have it feel brutal and threatening, if done right and in an otherwise excellent film that builds up to it properly. But I think it has to be a surprise. Bond defeats the villain or whatever, escapes into the water, only to be met by one last surprise. Our hero, nearly drowning, pierced by the tentacles of the monster, bloodied and soaked, knife clenched in his teeth, uses everything he has to make it out alive. I'd love it.

    I would be up for that, actually. It would at least be something quite fresh.

    The assault course is pretty strong too, yes Dragonpol. I'd be quite happy to see a version of that in a film, that'd be good. Higson did a spin of that in one of his (Double or Die maybe?) and it did feel very Fleming.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Yes, that is the leftover element of DN that has tremendous potential. I think they could do a decent CGI squid at this point...although I suppose the squid coming out of/retreating into the blackness would be very effective. Ask Spielberg about that. :)
  • Could anyone see Benedict Cumberbatch as Bond? I think someone mentioned it earlier. It would defo work in a period setting. He looks like Fleming described the character. Plus great actor as well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I think he's immensely talented...and a bit funny-looking. He'd be better as a villain.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    echo wrote: »
    I think he's immensely talented...and a bit funny-looking. He'd be better as a villain.

    He'd be good for David Dragonpol perhaps. :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    I think he'd make a good Lord Brett Sinclair actually! :)
    Probably for Bond they need someone in his 30s.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    mtm wrote: »
    I think he'd make a good Lord Brett Sinclair actually! :)
    Probably for Bond they need someone in his 30s.

    I could see him as a Charles Gray style Bond villain, very upper class and toffish and rather camp to boot.
  • Cumberbatch will turn 50 by the time Bond 26 is released. He is too old. Many years ago Barbara Broccoli said the following about Craig: "Michael and I really wanted him. We only wanted him." And now I feel the same way about Aaron Taylor Johnson.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,059
    ATJ's facial features screams Bond 7. If it isn't him, I would be very surprised to be honest.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    I'm starting to believe all these rumors that Nolan is in talks for 2 Bond films, and they're being held up because he wants to make them period films... All I have to say is, "Please let Nolan make faithful adaptions of the Blofeld Trilogy! OHMSS doesn't need it, but YOLT desperately does!"
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