Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,158
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I didn't want to leave that ominous vibe. It felt very Bondian
    Yes, absolutely, Jordo. That ominous sense of something deadly just beneath the surface beauty is something that I really love about Bond. Matera had it. Jamaica had it. Here's hoping Bond 26 has it in swathes.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,800
    I liked the action in Matera, that doughnut formation from the DB5 is an example, it's a delight seeing the action, I liked Bond doing that motorcycle stunt, those were all great.

    I even liked the PTS with Madeleine and Safin in the Frozen Norway scenes, very haunting and natural.

    But again, what I'm not a fan of in the Matera scenes was the dating scenes of Bond and Madeleine, it felt very melodramatic (soap opera) with Bond and Madeleine in that car on their way to the hotel with We Have All The Time In The World playing in the background, I still don't buy their relationship, felt very touchy feely but with schmaltz.

    Like this is the filmmakers trying to make Bond and Madeleine like Jack and Rose in Titanic or Romeo and Juliet, but failed in comparison.

    But, yes the action, once the graveyard exploded, it's where the good things started, until the Cuba Sequence.

    Please, if there's something I'd liked the Bond Franchise to reduce, it's the overly dramatic scenes, please and liked OHMSS, but it's not as melodramatic/soap opera like what they've done in NTTD, the romance in OHMSS had the sweetness and fanciness in it, not as overly sentimental as NTTD.

    I think since maybe Skyfall (or showing some signs in The World Is Not Enough), where when they've tried to inject some romance or character study into Bond, it always comes off as Soap Operatic, Melodramatic, and schmaltzy.

    Casino Royale had the romance, but it's not as over feely, or too sentimental like the recent Craig Entries with Madeleine.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,390
    Tuxedo wrote: »
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    The Cuba sequence fits Moore and Brosnan more.

    That's probably why I liked this scene so much. 😉
    But in general I agree, the movie was entertaining in the first third, sadly it goes downhill later, I think probably somewhere around the scene with Blofeld.

    Currently I'm not really looking forward to the next movie, especially if the Nolan rumors are true. Sadly it doesn't look like they want to change the overall tone of the movies.

    It's all rumors and we don't know which direction they will take the next adventure to. I think they tried to lighten the movies up a little bit after QoS but Daniel Craig wasn't the right guy to deliver this in my opinion. He was perfect in CR and QoS and I loved him as a tough, rugged and deadly serious Bond. But I missed the lighter touch too and and I think that was not what he was casted for.

    This is a good point. We don't know the tone. We know P&W are involved and they gave us the seriousness of QoS (underrated for its humor) and also the lightness of DAD (where the humor is, um, an acquired taste?).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,617
    Venutius wrote: »
    Said it before but, as glorious as Paloma was, I'd prefer a whole film like Matera, rather than one like Cuba.

    I couldn't agree more. I never wanted to leave Matera. The Cuba sequence simply doesn't work for me, because NTTD is a dirge. The Cuba sequence fits Moore and Brosnan more. Matera is tailor-made for Bonds like Connery, Lazenby, Dalton & of course, Craig.

    I love a bit of light and fun Bond, but Cuba didn't work for me mostly because there was nothing much cool in it. I like a bit of thought to go into a sequence like that, but all that really happens is that Bond shoots at a load of people and Paloma kicks them- there's not much in the way of actual wit in it.
    I agree that Matera is preferable- beautiful surroundings with a real feel of danger and urgency.
    Tuxedo wrote: »
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    The Cuba sequence fits Moore and Brosnan more.

    That's probably why I liked this scene so much. 😉
    But in general I agree, the movie was entertaining in the first third, sadly it goes downhill later, I think probably somewhere around the scene with Blofeld.

    Currently I'm not really looking forward to the next movie, especially if the Nolan rumors are true. Sadly it doesn't look like they want to change the overall tone of the movies.

    It's all rumors and we don't know which direction they will take the next adventure to. I think they tried to lighten the movies up a little bit after QoS but Daniel Craig wasn't the right guy to deliver this in my opinion. He was perfect in CR and QoS and I loved him as a tough, rugged and deadly serious Bond. But I missed the lighter touch too and and I think that was not what he was casted for.

    I think Spectre was actually a fairly big change for his Bond and he was suddenly much more comfortable in his own skin, and actually enjoyably playful at times. I thought that hit exactly the right notes.
    If Bond 25 showed us anything it's that over complicating things, while it may make you look "clever" on the surface, often doesn't work out in the long run.

    Can anyone with a straight face say that were satisfied by how blofeld and spectre met their ultimate demise? or that Bond having a family was mined for all its potential? or that the strange connection between Safin and Madeline truly pays off and justifies itself by the climax?


    I guess Spectre were certainly done away a bit too conveniently; I don't think they did anything with Bond's daughter or the Safin/Madeline obsession though- those all worked fine, I thought.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    I can’t remember where I heard this, or where I may’ve read this, but wasn’t the Cuba scene originally conceived as a Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire piece where the shootout happens via a dance sequence (and that’s why we have lines like like “Mind if I cut in”, and “the curtains about to go down on this”)?

    But they were unable to shoot it as written because of the ankle/foot injury that Craig sustained?

    Please correct me if I’m misremembering (but I think that would have been pretty incredible to watch).
  • Posts: 7,624
    peter wrote: »
    I can’t remember where I heard this, or where I may’ve read this, but wasn’t the Cuba scene originally conceived as a Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire piece where the shootout happens via a dance sequence (and that’s why we have lines like like “Mind if I cut in”, and “the curtains about to go down on this”)?

    But they were unable to shoot it as written because of the ankle/foot injury that Craig sustained?

    Please correct me if I’m misremembering (but I think that would have been pretty incredible to watch).

    Sounds a bit similar to the opener of 'Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom'
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,617
    peter wrote: »
    I can’t remember where I heard this, or where I may’ve read this, but wasn’t the Cuba scene originally conceived as a Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire piece where the shootout happens via a dance sequence (and that’s why we have lines like like “Mind if I cut in”, and “the curtains about to go down on this”)?

    But they were unable to shoot it as written because of the ankle/foot injury that Craig sustained?

    Please correct me if I’m misremembering (but I think that would have been pretty incredible to watch).

    That sounds very interesting, I'd love to know more about that.
    I presume the dance couldn't have lasted very long though? Once the shooting started it would be pretty nuts of Bond to keep dancing! :) I can imagine Steed and Mrs Peel but I'm not sure about Bond!
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 701
    If Bond 25 showed us anything it's that over complicating things, while it may make you look "clever" on the surface, often doesn't work out in the long run.

    Can anyone with a straight face say that were satisfied by how blofeld and spectre met their ultimate demise? or that Bond having a family was mined for all its potential? or that the strange connection between Safin and Madeline truly pays off and justifies itself by the climax?

    They need to go for simple straightforward narratives that actually make sense and hold up to scrutiny - walk before you can run.

    Do you mind me asking why you keep referring to the film as Bond 25? It does have a title.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,454
    The next 6 to 8 months are going to be fascinating to watch unfold as bond fans. Unless something drastically goes wrong, we should start to get some substantial news - I think by next spring we will have a definite release date locked down.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    peter wrote: »
    I can’t remember where I heard this, or where I may’ve read this, but wasn’t the Cuba scene originally conceived as a Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire piece where the shootout happens via a dance sequence (and that’s why we have lines like like “Mind if I cut in”, and “the curtains about to go down on this”)?

    But they were unable to shoot it as written because of the ankle/foot injury that Craig sustained?

    Please correct me if I’m misremembering (but I think that would have been pretty incredible to watch).

    I think you're right mate.

    Around 1.50 in this video it looks like Daniel and Ana are dancing at the start of the shootout. He spins her around while they're shooting.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,617
    That looks great. Are those shots not in it then? I can't remember.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    mtm wrote: »
    That looks great. Are those shots not in it then? I can't remember.

    No unfortunately not, it cuts to Primo putting the bionic eye in and then cuts back to Bond and Paloma running out the door.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,158
    Yeah, I couldn't remember seeing that shot of them turning, with her bare back to the camera either. Shame, I'd've liked that shot in the film. Wouldn't have wanted any kind of extended 'dance' analogy sequence, though - much of Cuba was already too close to Pierce/Sir Rog territory for me, tbh. While I might've quite enjoyed it in one of their films, it's not what I want from a Craig Bond. Context, I guess.
  • ivarbrcye99ivarbrcye99 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    Posts: 53
    With 2024 staring us in the face and still no official amnouncement, the prospect of a 2025 release date for Bond 26 is now entering the rear view mirror sadly.

    There's just no way they are gonna put together a whole film from scratch + cast a new Bond in the next 24 months, you'd have to be crazy to believe that.

    Really?! Still perfectly feasible giving Eon's usual pre, prod and post-prod schedules. In fact I very much thought from the beginning we're heading for a 2025 release. If they're going for an Oct/Nov 2025 release we won't hear anything until early 2024 at the EARLIEST. If they follow their usual modus operandi for a 2025 release expect screenwriting to begin early 2024 - they don't usually publically announce this in the way they did for what was at the time 'Bond 25'. Expect director hired summer 2024 and Bond announced along with start of prinicpal photography late 2024 - it's really too early right now to be saying that a 2025 release is out of the question.
  • Posts: 1,650
    echo wrote: »
    Tuxedo wrote: »
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    The Cuba sequence fits Moore and Brosnan more.

    That's probably why I liked this scene so much. 😉
    But in general I agree, the movie was entertaining in the first third, sadly it goes downhill later, I think probably somewhere around the scene with Blofeld.

    Currently I'm not really looking forward to the next movie, especially if the Nolan rumors are true. Sadly it doesn't look like they want to change the overall tone of the movies.

    It's all rumors and we don't know which direction they will take the next adventure to. I think they tried to lighten the movies up a little bit after QoS but Daniel Craig wasn't the right guy to deliver this in my opinion. He was perfect in CR and QoS and I loved him as a tough, rugged and deadly serious Bond. But I missed the lighter touch too and and I think that was not what he was casted for.

    This is a good point. We don't know the tone. We know P&W are involved and they gave us the seriousness of QoS (underrated for its humor) and also the lightness of DAD (where the humor is, um, an acquired taste?).

    Understand but cannot agree. Craig was so known for his serious Bond that when he had a light moment, a little bit went a loooong way. I've enjoyed all his Bond films. I do expect the films to take a turn, though. Otherwise they'd just be repeating themselves, for one thing.
  • Posts: 1,650
    I recall there being some expectations - hopes, really - that the new Bond actor would be announced on Bond Day. Didn't happen, of course. However - did ANYTHING happen in Bond-world on Bond Day ?
  • Posts: 573
    Since62 wrote: »
    I recall there being some expectations - hopes, really - that the new Bond actor would be announced on Bond Day. Didn't happen, of course. However - did ANYTHING happen in Bond-world on Bond Day ?

    Teaser for that reality TV show, and all the movies are back on Prime.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,702
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Since62 wrote: »
    I recall there being some expectations - hopes, really - that the new Bond actor would be announced on Bond Day. Didn't happen, of course. However - did ANYTHING happen in Bond-world on Bond Day ?

    Teaser for that reality TV show, and all the movies are back on Prime.

    Plus a new book.

    https://www.007.com/james-bond-destinations-book-released-by-assouline/

    Speaking of the future of Bond, there is a minor nitpick I would have. As much as I want Rachel Weisz as a villain, it would also mean EON wouldn’t want to move on from Craig. I’m slightly surprised that she didn’t appear in his last 3 movies.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited October 2023 Posts: 701
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Since62 wrote: »
    I recall there being some expectations - hopes, really - that the new Bond actor would be announced on Bond Day. Didn't happen, of course. However - did ANYTHING happen in Bond-world on Bond Day ?

    Teaser for that reality TV show, and all the movies are back on Prime.

    Plus a new book.

    https://www.007.com/james-bond-destinations-book-released-by-assouline/

    Speaking of the future of Bond, there is a minor nitpick I would have. As much as I want Rachel Weisz as a villain, it would also mean EON wouldn’t want to move on from Craig. I’m slightly surprised that she didn’t appear in his last 3 movies.

    Maybe they don't want to work together. Some couples don't.
  • Posts: 3,327
    I thought the action scenes in Matera and the whole of Jamaica were the highlight of NTTD for me. I really liked both these moments in a film which I otherwise despise.

    I never really understood the constant praise that the Cuba scenes get. To me this is back to silly, slapstick Bond, straying dangerously close towards Moore/Brozza territory. If we have the next Bond film with this tone throughout, then I will most likely hate it.

    I quite liked Paloma as a character and her interplay with Bond, but that's about as far as it goes.

    The tone in both Matera and Jamaica was spot on. The next film needs to keep it more in this kind of reality.
  • Posts: 133
    I never really understood the constant praise that the Cuba scenes get. To me this is back to silly, slapstick Bond, straying dangerously close towards Moore/Brozza territory. If we have the next Bond film with this tone throughout, then I will most likely hate it.
    I would most likely love it. I had a lot of fun with this scene. And I don't think the scene was too silly - we have seen much sillier scenes in Bond films over the years.

    We have seen enough drama and seriousness during the latest era, it's time for a change to a lighter tone, without being too silly.
  • Posts: 1,088
    I suppose one person's silly is another persons comedy. I liked him swigging the drink before throwing the tray, but I thought him brushing himself off in an embarrassed way after popping up from the bar was a bit too much. For me.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,158
    Rachel Weisz was supposed to be have been in line for the head of Quantum when Property of a Lady was floated as Dan's third film - weirdly, that was before they were a couple! First time I saw QOS, I thought the woman with the long dark hair who gets up to leave the Tosca Quantum conference was Rachel Weisz!
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,454
    I've been on a Bond hiatus in recent years since the release of Bond 25, and I think after the strike ended a spark has ignited in a lot of fans who became disenchanted with the franchise after how that film ended. Anyway I watched Tomorrow Never Dies on Amazon Prime the other night, and I think I'm starting to appreciate how underrated Brosnans films were, because so many classic bond elements basically went extinct after he left the role. For instance when he goes to investigate Carvers building and finds the encoder and we get classic bond sleuthing music from david, and then he escapes and sees Wai Lin walking down the side of the building, pure fantasy but just so fun! You can tell that classic Bond tone was still very fresh at the time, and they did their best to resurrect that spirit after LTK and the long hiatus. I understand the criticisms that brosnans films became too americanised and action heavy, but at the same time there's a lot of the bond formula that still existed back then that has been lost in the interim, and I honestly don't know we'll see another archetypal, day in the life type film ever again. I do sometimes think that the series has maybe run its course, and it might be better if they just stopped making films altogether. Everytime I see a topic about Bond 26 there's usually at least one or two people who are quick to say "as long as they don't go down the comedy road I'll be happy" but to me the lifeblood of Bond is the somewhat breezy sunday afternoon adventures that excite and bedazzle without taxing too much. Sure you can have a film or two with a darker edge, maybe even a whole era at a stretch, but at the end of the day you have to revert to form. I realised this because I watched tomorrow never dies and it struck how the clear and confident the image of Bond was back then compared with how confused and muddled it is now, that's entropy in effect. I think if the next film doesn't make an effort, regardless of how successful it is in doing so, of recapturing some of that classic formula and essence then perhaps for me at least and many Bond fans seem to agree to call it quits. The ending of Bond 25 really shook mine and many fans confidence in EON to know what they are the custodians of and treat it with the proper care, but in truth it had been coming since many years prior, and while the Craig films were successful they didn't do much to win over the next generation. When Brosnan left the role he had brought in a whole new generation of fans, same with Moore. Craig is more popular than ever with the over 40 demographic, but the fact is gen Z couldn't care less about James Bond, and if EON aren't careful the series could become the next indiana jones in a few years. The time for reinvention and deconstruction is over, we spent years trying to reinvent the wheel and it honestly only made things worse e.g. brofeld, interconnected stories, scooby gang, the one true answer is not to reinvent, or deconstruct but to rediscover exactly what it was that made these films so damn hypnotic to begin with, and be a little less self conscious about it. Because as much as gen z doesn't care about james bond, they care about autin powers even less. ;)
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 12,837
    then perhaps for me at least and many Bond fans seem to agree to call it quits.

    (edited because I was being a dick and it wasn’t really called for)

    I’ve probably said stuff like this myself in the past when I wasn’t satisfied with the way things were going but realistically mate, no you won’t call it quits. Just like I was never really going to. I get it, you didn’t like the last couple, you’re hoping for a different direction. It doesn’t mean you have to be this hyperbolic. You’re not going anywhere and neither is the massively successful series we love.

    I do agree with you on the Brosnan films though, and I do think they did a better job back then of drawing in younger fans. Definitely something they should be keeping in mind.
  • Posts: 1,871
    I've been on a Bond hiatus in recent years since the release of Bond 25, and I think after the strike ended a spark has ignited in a lot of fans who became disenchanted with the franchise after how that film ended. Anyway I watched Tomorrow Never Dies on Amazon Prime the other night, and I think I'm starting to appreciate how underrated Brosnans films were, because so many classic bond elements basically went extinct after he left the role. For instance when he goes to investigate Carvers building and finds the encoder and we get classic bond sleuthing music from david, and then he escapes and sees Wai Lin walking down the side of the building, pure fantasy but just so fun! You can tell that classic Bond tone was still very fresh at the time, and they did their best to resurrect that spirit after LTK and the long hiatus. I understand the criticisms that brosnans films became too americanised and action heavy, but at the same time there's a lot of the bond formula that still existed back then that has been lost in the interim, and I honestly don't know we'll see another archetypal, day in the life type film ever again. I do sometimes think that the series has maybe run its course, and it might be better if they just stopped making films altogether. Everytime I see a topic about Bond 26 there's usually at least one or two people who are quick to say "as long as they don't go down the comedy road I'll be happy" but to me the lifeblood of Bond is the somewhat breezy sunday afternoon adventures that excite and bedazzle without taxing too much. Sure you can have a film or two with a darker edge, maybe even a whole era at a stretch, but at the end of the day you have to revert to form. I realised this because I watched tomorrow never dies and it struck how the clear and confident the image of Bond was back then compared with how confused and muddled it is now, that's entropy in effect. I think if the next film doesn't make an effort, regardless of how successful it is in doing so, of recapturing some of that classic formula and essence then perhaps for me at least and many Bond fans seem to agree to call it quits. The ending of Bond 25 really shook mine and many fans confidence in EON to know what they are the custodians of and treat it with the proper care, but in truth it had been coming since many years prior, and while the Craig films were successful they didn't do much to win over the next generation. When Brosnan left the role he had brought in a whole new generation of fans, same with Moore. Craig is more popular than ever with the over 40 demographic, but the fact is gen Z couldn't care less about James Bond, and if EON aren't careful the series could become the next indiana jones in a few years. The time for reinvention and deconstruction is over, we spent years trying to reinvent the wheel and it honestly only made things worse e.g. brofeld, interconnected stories, scooby gang, the one true answer is not to reinvent, or deconstruct but to rediscover exactly what it was that made these films so damn hypnotic to begin with, and be a little less self conscious about it. Because as much as gen z doesn't care about james bond, they care about autin powers even less. ;)

    Well said.
  • Posts: 2,027
    When humor sucks the fear and vulnerability out a character, then that character is no longer believable. We don't hold our breath because we know the danger isn't real. A wink, a smile, a silly remark inform us our man is not in danger. It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger, even in the much praised centrifuge scene from MR. Craig's Bond was a bit too much the other way. Could have used a bit more, but he never really came across as much of a wit, certainly not a natural one. I want more wit and cleverness from our next Bond, but not silliness.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    CrabKey wrote: »
    When humor sucks the fear and vulnerability out a character, then that character is no longer believable. We don't hold our breath because we know the danger isn't real. A wink, a smile, a silly remark inform us our man is not in danger. It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger, even in the much praised centrifuge scene from MR. Craig's Bond was a bit too much the other way. Could have used a bit more, but he never really came across as much of a wit, certainly not a natural one. I want more wit and cleverness from our next Bond, but not silliness.

    Very well said.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 1,088
    I've been on a Bond hiatus in recent years since the release of Bond 25, and I think after the strike ended a spark has ignited in a lot of fans who became disenchanted with the franchise after how that film ended. Anyway I watched Tomorrow Never Dies on Amazon Prime the other night, and I think I'm starting to appreciate how underrated Brosnans films were, because so many classic bond elements basically went extinct after he left the role. . . .

    Thanks for that post, I enjoyed reading it and a lot of what you said resonated with me. I smiled at the bit quoted above, because after watching NTTD the first Bond film I reached for (as a Bondian movie sorbet, so to speak) was Tomorrow Never Dies, which is my favourite Brozza Bond, and a film that is just plain, rattling good fun.
    Crikey, I needed it after No Time to Die.
  • Posts: 1,462
    CrabKey wrote: »
    When humor sucks the fear and vulnerability out a character, then that character is no longer believable. We don't hold our breath because we know the danger isn't real. A wink, a smile, a silly remark inform us our man is not in danger. It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger, even in the much praised centrifuge scene from MR. Craig's Bond was a bit too much the other way. Could have used a bit more, but he never really came across as much of a wit, certainly not a natural one. I want more wit and cleverness from our next Bond, but not silliness.

    Stunts do more harm than humor.
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