Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182

    delfloria wrote: »
    Welcome to a whole new world. One that is not as fun as the one I grew up in. Maybe if Bond doesn't change, he can show them the way.

    A new UCLA study of teens and young adults ages 13-24 has found a significant portion of them, as much as 47.5%, think physical intimacy and romance are too prominent in both movies and TV shows.

    44.3% cite romance in media as being ‘overused’, 51.5% want to see more content focused on friendships and platonic relationships, and 39% say they want to see more aromantic and/or asexual characters on screen.

    I probably would have felt that way about older films/TV back in the day, where romance between men and women was a prerequisite in writing because the men have to be desired by every woman to fulfill some sort of silly male fantasy. The idea of featuring lead men and women in platonic friendships was an extremely rare thing.

    James Bond is a silly male fantasy!
    Wrong forum, man.

    I wasn’t talking about James Bond.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Tbh, in a general sense, older films were overly horny and newer films aren’t horny enough. The pendulum has swung so hard in the opposite direction from where it used to be. There was a lot of uncool, misogynistic stuff in older media that was allowed to fly that shouldn’t have, and now all kissing and sex is minimal and cold when it happens. Hopefully one day a happy medium can be achieved!

    When it comes to Bond, I hate the idea of making him permanently a one-woman man, or nothing at all. Personally it’s a change that goes too far for me in his characterization. And I strongly believe his ability to have multiple partners can be conveyed without misogyny. But all trends point to one or no women for Bond moving forward.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    BMB007 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Welcome to a whole new world. One that is not as fun as the one I grew up in. Maybe if Bond doesn't change, he can show them the way.

    A new UCLA study of teens and young adults ages 13-24 has found a significant portion of them, as much as 47.5%, think physical intimacy and romance are too prominent in both movies and TV shows.

    44.3% cite romance in media as being ‘overused’, 51.5% want to see more content focused on friendships and platonic relationships, and 39% say they want to see more aromantic and/or asexual characters on screen.

    Putting 13 year olds in the same demographic bucket as 24 year olds seems like bad methods to me...

    Yes it doesn't sound like a serious study and won't have any bearing on new films.

    That said, it's not like the bits where James gets off with a lady are ever the most interesting bits to me. They're not exactly titillating, and I tend to think the old films where it's all mostly treated as a bit tongue-in-cheek were the best way of handling it. It's fun that he gets his way with ladies, but it's not exactly what I watch the films for.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,182
    I don’t think they were ever meant to titillate, I think Bond sleeping with as many women as he could was just a product of an old man’s fantasy wish fulfillment. Just look at the ages of the filmmakers back in the 1960s and you’ll see they’re all middle aged folk probably having a midlife crisis. Of course they would be having the time of their life because they get to be on set with young beautiful women.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I personally don't think platonic relationships suit Bond as a character. The action and violence should always be intense and furious, I think his relationships should mirror that intensity. I'd rather have him be a one woman man each film, similar to literary character.

    Not every woman needs to desire him, like in the 60's, but having nobody want him isn't very fun
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I don’t think anyone is making a case for Bond only having platonic relationships?

    I thought the side mission with Paloma was really great. But it made sense for that film that Bond would only sleep with Madeline.

    On a side note, I think it’s funny that DAF ended up being Connery’s last, as it was the only Bond movie he did where the character only slept with one woman.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally don't think platonic relationships suit Bond as a character. The action and violence should always be intense and furious, I think his relationships should mirror that intensity. I'd rather have him be a one woman man each film, similar to literary character.

    Not every woman needs to desire him, like in the 60's, but having nobody want him isn't very fun

    Well said @Jordo007 … i agree with you.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2023 Posts: 5,970
    Yeah I agree @Jordo007. I do also think they should keep in mind and make an active effort to be careful when it comes to the kinds of Bond girls they're dealing with, especially when it comes to characters like Severine, where Bond sleeping with her felt insensitive due to her characters background and the lack of context as to whether she was even attracted to him. Plus it didn't really add anything besides the writers probably feeling he had to sleep with someone, considering they had no main Bond girl for him to end up with by the end of the film.
  • Posts: 1,859
    I don’t think they were ever meant to titillate, I think Bond sleeping with as many women as he could was just a product of an old man’s fantasy wish fulfillment. Just look at the ages of the filmmakers back in the 1960s and you’ll see they’re all middle aged folk probably having a midlife crisis. Of course they would be having the time of their life because they get to be on set with young beautiful women.

    "old man's fantasy"........................I'm confused.
  • Posts: 1,979
    Plenty of speculation about Fleming, directors, and writers with respect to Bond and sex.
    Any proof how the writers were feeling, or of an old man's fantasies, or whether or not directors in the 60s were having some sort of middle aged crises?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Plenty of speculation about Fleming

    I didn’t mention Fleming, because his Bond was practically a prude compared to the man whore that is Cinematic Bond.
  • Posts: 1,979
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Plenty of speculation about Fleming

    I didn’t mention Fleming, because his Bond was practically a prude compared to the man whore that is Cinematic Bond.

    What old man are you speaking of? Whose fantasies?
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,133
    I don’t think they were ever meant to titillate, I think Bond sleeping with as many women as he could was just a product of an old man’s fantasy wish fulfillment. Just look at the ages of the filmmakers back in the 1960s and you’ll see they’re all middle aged folk probably having a midlife crisis. Of course they would be having the time of their life because they get to be on set with young beautiful women.

    Bond’s womanising in the 60s films is its own thing and arguably a bit different to both the novels and what comes after that period in terms of the films. As you said it’s not meant to be erotic but it usually involves stuff like beautiful hotel receptionists fawning over Bond, or Bond seducing random women and sleeping with them. It’s all very carefree and impersonal, but fun.

    There’s definitely an element of male fantasy in the books, but Bond’s womanising isn’t always depicted in that ‘wish fulfilment’ way. Sometimes it’s even a bit sad. He often falls in love with flawed women, he messes up relationships, and sleeps around with married women out of boredom. Apart from the occasional internal comment about spanking Fleming’s Bond does indeed come off as a much more conservative figure than the more ‘liberal’ cinematic Bond of the swinging 60s about these things.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    CrabKey wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Plenty of speculation about Fleming

    I didn’t mention Fleming, because his Bond was practically a prude compared to the man whore that is Cinematic Bond.

    What old man are you speaking of? Whose fantasies?

    I don’t think they were ever meant to titillate, I think Bond sleeping with as many women as he could was just a product of an old man’s fantasy wish fulfillment. Just look at the ages of the filmmakers back in the 1960s and you’ll see they’re all middle aged folk probably having a midlife crisis. Of course they would be having the time of their life because they get to be on set with young beautiful women.

    I get it though. Times were different. Porno access wasn’t what it is today. Men got it where they could. Gene Roddenberry was the most notorious, hiring two of his mistresses on Star Trek.
  • Posts: 1,859
    CrabKey wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Plenty of speculation about Fleming

    I didn’t mention Fleming, because his Bond was practically a prude compared to the man whore that is Cinematic Bond.

    What old man are you speaking of? Whose fantasies?

    I don’t think they were ever meant to titillate, I think Bond sleeping with as many women as he could was just a product of an old man’s fantasy wish fulfillment. Just look at the ages of the filmmakers back in the 1960s and you’ll see they’re all middle aged folk probably having a midlife crisis. Of course they would be having the time of their life because they get to be on set with young beautiful women.

    I get it though. Times were different. Porno access wasn’t what it is today. Men got it where they could. Gene Roddenberry was the most notorious, hiring two of his mistresses on Star Trek.

    Now I'm really confused..................what has porno got to do with wanting and having sex with a variety women. Growing up in the 60's, and watching Bond films perhaps my point of view is off kilter.
  • Posts: 1,979
    If men got it where they could back in the day, where are men getting it today? Are you talking about the accessibility of porn or sex? Is there something wrong with old guys having sexual fantasies? Does a middle age man thinking about hot women constitute a middle age crisis? I want to understand your point. It seems as if you are saying men of a certain age should no longer have an interest in sex.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.

    An interesting point. I suppose they were trying to navigate/incorporate/innovate on the cusp of the sexual revolution...almost certainly a reaction to the ultraconservative fifties, giving the films sex and violence.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 680
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.

    Then we wouldn't have had Bond killing Professor Dent.
  • Posts: 1,979
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.

    Yes, that must be it. Horny old men. Should we expect the next Bond film will be written by prudish young men who are uncomfortable with sex, especially by consenting adults over a certain age?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,182
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.

    Then we wouldn't have had Bond killing Professor Dent.

    As good as the scene is in isolation, I could do without that as well. That whole stretch of the film with Taro and Dent didn’t really enhance what was already on the page. Same with shoehorning in Leiter.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I’m just speculating that the sex was increased in the film because they were being made by horny old men. For example, Taro was just a minor character in the novel, but then the movie slows down the narrative to take its time showing Bond bedding her, when we should have been in Crab Key by that running time.

    Yes, that must be it. Horny old men. Should we expect the next Bond film will be written by prudish young men who are uncomfortable with sex, especially by consenting adults over a certain age?

    I take it that’s a rhetorical question.
  • Posts: 1,859
    The killing of Dent was an essential scene to define what made the Bond movies unique at the time.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,182
    It definitely set him apart from how heroes were typically portrayed in the past. I still don’t think it was necessary, but that was their choice.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited October 2023 Posts: 680
    I guess, but it gives a little more insight into his character and how he operates. I think the film would be poorer without those scenes.
  • Posts: 1,332
    It's not an old man fantasy. It's a TEEN fantasy.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    It's not an old man fantasy. It's a TEEN fantasy.

    If it was a teen fantasy it would be a lot more ribald like AMERICAN PIE.
  • Posts: 1,332
    They have porn now.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Not just they, but everyone has access. It’s partly why erotic films are no longer a thing. Why sit through a movie for titillation when you can just google search whatever floats your unit?
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited October 2023 Posts: 680
    I think @echo had a point about adapting to the changing times. The sex and violence in the books probably seemed a little tame by 1962. But sensuality is ultimately a big part of Bond's escapist appeal and resonates with people of all ages. To put it down to horny old men having a midlife crisis seems oddly mean-spirited and disrespectful.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    Is it sensual though? Maybe ones where he falls in love can be, but the ones where ladies swoon over him everywhere feel like they're mainly for laughs to me. I don't get the sense that anyone is massively disappointed in the ones where he gets less action, like NTTD, QOS or TLD.
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