Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 7,507
    @peter

    Afraid you are right about P&W. I was hoping for something new and fresh.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    I would keep P&W on just so that the new Bond era isn't a total break from the previous one. Plus they're good on the ideas level, and they know the Fleming novels. I doubt that many other writers in Hollywood do.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 685
    Am I right in thinking QOS contained virtually nothing P&W wrote, despite them getting a writer's credit?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 7 Posts: 6,304
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I would keep P&W on just so that the new Bond era isn't a total break from the previous one. Plus they're good on the ideas level, and they know the Fleming novels. I doubt that many other writers in Hollywood do.

    Arguably P&W were the best writers on SP. Better than Logan, who clearly had only one Bond script in him.

    Better than Butterworth: "Butterworth considered that his changes involved adding what he would like to see as a teenager, and limited the scenes with Bond talking to men, as 'Bond shoots other men—he doesn't sit around chatting to them. So you put a line through that.'"

    Has Butterworth not seen DN? Or OHMSS? Or TMWTGG? What nonsense.

    If anyone kept the "Bond guardrails" on SP, it was P&W.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I would keep P&W on just so that the new Bond era isn't a total break from the previous one. Plus they're good on the ideas level, and they know the Fleming novels. I doubt that many other writers in Hollywood do.

    Yeah I think they still come up with good ideas. I look at the continuation novels from the same period for example, and the movies feel like they have more original and thematically-developed stories most of the time.
    Am I right in thinking QOS contained virtually nothing P&W wrote, despite them getting a writer's credit?

    I don't think so; they did the very first draft which contained many elements which eventually made it to the finished film.
  • Posts: 7,507
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I would keep P&W on just so that the new Bond era isn't a total break from the previous one. Plus they're good on the ideas level, and they know the Fleming novels. I doubt that many other writers in Hollywood do.

    Fair point.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 7 Posts: 3,152
    Yes, there were similarities - eg. Mr. White escaped custody, but P & W had MI6 deliberately letting him get away so that Bond could trail him back to Quantum. P & W's QOS script ended with an opera scene - it was probably a similar set to the one in the film, as the last shot was going to be Bond in silhouette against the giant eye, as a hark back to Fleming's description of Bond as 'the man who was a silhouette.' Forster apparently wasn't thrilled with Haggis's version of the Quantum meeting, which was set up as a sort of parallel UN general assembly, so he repurposed the opera scene from P & W's scrapped script. I'm glad that he did, it was not only a definite improvement (IMO), but a genuinely classic Bond sequence.

    If Hodge and Boyle's great idea was that Bond would spend the majority of NTTD in captivity in Russia, I'm not sure we lost out, tbh. Copenhagen shows that Dan would more than do justice to an extended character piece and, selfishly, I'd love to have seen him tackle Bond in-depth in something like that - but, realistically, as the new James Bond movie aimed at a global audience...? I can see why EON might want to steer away from it, tbh.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Ive been out of the loop for awhile but I saw a rumor saying the producers turned Nolan down due to creative differences. This true? any merit to this?
  • Posts: 1,993
    Nothing will say brand new Bond like hiring the same old writers.
  • CrabKey wrote: »
    Nothing will say brand new Bond like hiring the same old writers.

    Yeah. Maybe if they had an excellent track record then it would make sense, but they not only do not have an excellent track record, they have an explicitly bad one.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    Following Craig, I thought folks wanted the Old Bond back.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Am I right in thinking QOS contained virtually nothing P&W wrote, despite them getting a writer's credit?

    According to them yes. The only reason they retained a credit was because Haggis’ drafts kept enough plot elements of theirs.
  • edited January 9 Posts: 1,993
    I don't associate the old Bond with P&W. As for Bond 26, if the idea is to reboot, reinvent, or whatever else, then new writers need to be brought on. P&W managed to kill Bond, M, Felix, Mathis, and Blofeld during their tenure. Seems like a good time to end their association with the series.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Nothing will say brand new Bond like hiring the same old writers.

    Yeah. Maybe if they had an excellent track record then it would make sense, but they not only do not have an excellent track record, they have an explicitly bad one.

    I disagree.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Purvis & Wade never had a final say on any script, so it’s hard to actually judge their writing when Eon keeps hiring other writers to rewrite the scripts, sometimes to the point of bearing little resemblance to their original drafts.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,044
    P&W would always be kept, because of their ultra-vast Fleming knowledge.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    I guess I just don't see how the last few films are significantly worse story-wise than AVTAK, TLD, GE, TND etc. Folks talk about them as if they're massive failures, and I know Max will mention Bond leaving the service ( ;) ) but these don't seem like bad Bond stories to me. Are there significantly better Bond stories being written out there?
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Nothing will say brand new Bond like hiring the same old writers.

    Yeah. Maybe if they had an excellent track record then it would make sense, but they not only do not have an excellent track record, they have an explicitly bad one.

    I disagree.

    I'd also disagree. They may be associated with some poor films and therefore some poor scripts to blame them for. But they are not the sole reason a poor film is poor.
    Scripts go through many re-writes and tweaks along the way. To blame this all on Purvis and Wade is unfair.
    In saying that, I would like some fresh blood all-round for Bond 26 if possible.
    I know that's asking a lot.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 8 Posts: 16,413
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.
  • edited January 8 Posts: 1,368
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    NTTD has a messy script all the way.

    They need to adapt novels. That's all. Any novel, It doesn't matter which one.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 8 Posts: 16,413
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    If P&W wrote a script about the world's greatest assassin which for some reason turned into a story about an irrelevant gadget and an empty power station, and featured no assassinations whatsoever; in which the Bond girl being an idiot drove the last act; in which Bond went to Beirut to get a bullet despite literally being mailed one in the previous scene, and in which he gets left behind by his ally when he comes to rescue him because he just drives off; we'd never hear the end of how bad they are. It's not tied together and characters have to be stupid to make the plot work.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    NTTD has a messy script all the way.

    They need to adapt novels. That's all. Any novel, It doesn't matter which one.


    A lot of the novels are messy. Plotting was not Fleming's strongest suit. Nor of most of the continuation writers, although I stopped after Benson. Why read a copy of a copy when you can read the original?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    In terms of the future, could take or leave P & W coming back. They are decent ideas men. They got screwed on QOS, their idea was better. I think that one more rewrite from them could have helped QOS. However, I’ve felt for a while that the writing in Bond movies does need to change. New Bond, new writers, simple as that. I’m sure that we would complain about Richard Maibaum and Tom Mankiewicz coming back so much, if the internet existed back then.

    As for Chris Nolan writing and directing, I also could go either way. EON has copied him more than once lately, they might as well as give him personally a try. I could see him bringing back a classic villain (probably Blofeld, honestly). As long as he isn’t writing solo, I could trust him.

    The main person that I think shouldn’t come back is Michael G Wilson. He’s too old, and clearly unhealthy. He should do what Cubby did on GE: supervise bringing in the new era.
  • edited January 8 Posts: 1,368
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    NTTD has a messy script all the way.

    They need to adapt novels. That's all. Any novel, It doesn't matter which one.


    A lot of the novels are messy. Plotting was not Fleming's strongest suit. Nor of most of the continuation writers, although I stopped after Benson. Why read a copy of a copy when you can read the original?

    I don't care. EON can't do it any better. That's the point. They can't.

    They are fooling themselves







  • edited January 8 Posts: 4,162
    Even the early film took liberties with the original books though (GF is, in my honest opinion, a much better film because of the changes it made in adaptation). I really can’t see a faithful version of DAF, MR and certainly not TSWLM working either. Either the books themselves have flaws that would require significant adaptation (DAF has some notoriously weak villains and for many doesn’t get going until the midway point), the big plot points have already been adapted into other Bond films to the point they’d feel predictable for modern viewers (MR is an example of this), or they’re simply unsuitable for adaptation (while an interesting novel, I don’t think a faithful adaptation of TSWLM would prove successful creatively or financially).

    The continuation novels are in the same boat really, and are in my opinion all of lower quality than the Fleming books. Colonel Sun has even had scraps of it make its way into the films. Maybe they could do something similar with some of the stronger novels (ie. only use specific ideas) but I’d argue overall the more interesting things about even the Horowitz novels had already been done in the Craig films. So they wouldn’t benefit from being adapted fully. Personally, I’d take any of the recent original scripts over any Bond continuation novel.
  • edited January 8 Posts: 1,368
    007HallY wrote: »
    Even the early film took liberties with the original books though (GF is, in my honest opinion, a much better film because of the changes it made in adaptation). I really can’t see a faithful version of DAF, MR and certainly not TSWLM working either. Either the books themselves have flaws that would require significant adaptation (DAF has some notoriously weak villains and for many doesn’t get going until the midway point), the big plot points have already been adapted into other Bond films to the point they’d feel predictable for modern viewers (MR is an example of this), or they’re simply unsuitable for adaptation (while an interesting novel, I don’t think a faithful adaptation of TSWLM would prove successful creatively or financially).

    The continuation novels are in the same boat really, and are in my opinion all of lower quality than the Fleming books. Colonel Sun has even had scraps of it make its way into the films. Maybe they could do something similar with some of the stronger novels (ie. only use specific ideas) but I’d argue overall the more interesting things about even the Horowitz novels had already been done in the Craig films. So they wouldn’t benefit from being adapted fully. Personally, I’d take any of the recent original scripts over any Bond continuation novel.

    Well, I never say a "faithful" adaptation. They can use Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

    :)

    Any adaptation is better.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    007HallY wrote: »
    Even the early film took liberties with the original books though (GF is, in my honest opinion, a much better film because of the changes it made in adaptation).

    I love that when they adapted OHMSS, they kept the opening scenes in the same order as the novel, despite those being a flashback in the book. They removed the flashback element and made it linear and pretty much nothing changed! :)

    007HallY wrote: »
    The continuation novels are in the same boat really, and are in my opinion all of lower quality than the Fleming books. Colonel Sun has even had scraps of it make its way into the films. Maybe they could do something similar with some of the stronger novels (ie. only use specific ideas) but I’d argue overall the more interesting things about even the Horowitz novels had already been done in the Craig films. So they wouldn’t benefit from being adapted fully. Personally, I’d take any of the recent original scripts over any Bond continuation novel.

    Yes, I enjoy the novels, but I don't think you'll find one with ideas as strong as the recent films. Something like Skyfall or even Spectre actually take Bond to new places and have coherent themes; TWINE is a pretty bold story with lots of new elements. The Horowitzs are great fun but I'm not sure they're pushing any boundaries: something like Trigger Mortis is (intentionally I think, to be fair) a pretty standard Bond adventure story.
  • Posts: 1,368
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    If P&W wrote a script about the world's greatest assassin which for some reason turned into a story about an irrelevant gadget and an empty power station, and featured no assassinations whatsoever; in which the Bond girl being an idiot drove the last act; in which Bond went to Beirut to get a bullet despite literally being mailed one in the previous scene, and in which he gets left behind by his ally when he comes to rescue him because he just drives off; we'd never hear the end of how bad they are. It's not tied together and characters have to be stupid to make the plot work.

    Well, they wrote Skyfall in which Bond being an idiot drove the last act.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    When you write on assignment, you don’t create in a vacuum. The producers and creatives work together to create the story that best fits what the producers want to bring to market.
    Yes indeed, and we know that there are specific story elements which have come not from them. On ajb recently I saw P&W being criticised for the parasurfing from DAD and the Blofeld foster brother thing: elements which Lee Tamahori and Michael Wilson have been specifically credited for coming up with respectively. It's become a bit of a repeated meme that P&W are bad, but I'm not quite sure if that's always based in what's actually happened.
    Something like TMWTGG I would say is far more of a mess of a script than anything P&W have overseen.

    Really? TMWTGG script is fine.

    If P&W wrote a script about the world's greatest assassin which for some reason turned into a story about an irrelevant gadget and an empty power station, and featured no assassinations whatsoever; in which the Bond girl being an idiot drove the last act; in which Bond went to Beirut to get a bullet despite literally being mailed one in the previous scene, and in which he gets left behind by his ally when he comes to rescue him because he just drives off; we'd never hear the end of how bad they are. It's not tied together and characters have to be stupid to make the plot work.

    Well, they wrote Skyfall in which Bond being an idiot drove the last act.

    Did EoN reject you some time in your life, Deke?

    I’m not sure why you’re a fan, 😂

    You obviously have the answers to all of EoN’s ills… perhaps you should write your own adaptation and pitch to the powers that be?
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