Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,695
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @Benny - I share the opinion that big name stars don't necessarily make for a better Bond film. Malek and Waltz were huge disappointments, especially after seeing them do great work in other things. Both curiously underwhelming, certainly lacking the gusto of a Gert Frobe (even dubbed) and Telly Savalas. Bardem I liked, but a less known character actor could have pulled off that role.

    @Univex - As for production values, I don't necessarily see those as a continuation of what we got in CR. I think it's more about what can be done these days. But I do agree Bond films have always had a travelogue/panoramic quality about them.

    With so much borrowed and re-borrowed from Fleming, I am not opposed to reworking any of his stories and calling them something else. Among a new generation of fans, few will know. I would rather see a reworked Fleming story than one that I've seen a dozen times in other action/thrillers. There's only so much train riding, motorcycle jumping, and things blowing up before all feels familiar and predictable. The difference for me is Fleming concentrates more on character than action. Others will disagree, but Malek and Waltz simply were not interesting characters. When I saw both films, I did not want to see more of either. Both seemed to get in the way of what could have been better films without them.

    I don’t blame the actors in the case of Waltz and Malek. I blame the writing, and some of the general ideas. EON I don’t think put much thought into humanizing them. When they did, it was with material that was long cliché.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 30 Posts: 24,257
    talos7 wrote: »
    Yeah. Malek's own was the bigger let down. I was looking forward to seeing an extraordinary Bond villain. Maybe they shouldn't have hyped him that much. Maybe If they hyped Mikkelsen's Le Chiffre, we wouldn't have enjoyed him like we did in CR.

    His motives, and obsession with Swann, were poorly defined and he would have been served better by not having the over the top accent.

    Rami was cool and somewhat scary at the same time in THE LITTLE THINGS without an accent. I don't like fake accents anyway. Wiseman did a tremendous job without faking a foreign accent he probably wouldn't have been able to pull off well anyway. And I never once question Dr No's partially Oriental ancestry.
  • Posts: 6,710
    I dislike fake accents as well. One of the faults in the new Ferrari film by Michael Mann, and House of Gucci and so many others. It’s one think to fake accents within a language, but another conpletely to pretend you have a different nationality and that’s the way you speak another language. It’s in poor taste, I think. A bit offensive even.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Univex wrote: »
    I dislike fake accents as well. One of the faults in the new Ferrari film by Michael Mann, and House of Gucci and so many others. It’s one think to fake accents within a language, but another conpletely to pretend you have a different nationality and that’s the way you speak another language. It’s in poor taste, I think. A bit offensive even.

    Shailene Woodley's accent was so abysmal in that film that she veers into sounding Jamaican in a few scenes. It's hilariously bad.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I dislike fake accents as well. One of the faults in the new Ferrari film by Michael Mann, and House of Gucci and so many others. It’s one think to fake accents within a language, but another conpletely to pretend you have a different nationality and that’s the way you speak another language. It’s in poor taste, I think. A bit offensive even.

    Shailene Woodley's accent was so abysmal in that film that she veers into sounding Jamaican in a few scenes. It's hilariously bad.

    Indeed it was. Abysmal. Adam Driver should’ve learned from all the criticism in the Ridley Scott film. And to add to that, Michael Mann said they distorted the audio files in post to make the accents sound more legit.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Univex wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I dislike fake accents as well. One of the faults in the new Ferrari film by Michael Mann, and House of Gucci and so many others. It’s one think to fake accents within a language, but another conpletely to pretend you have a different nationality and that’s the way you speak another language. It’s in poor taste, I think. A bit offensive even.

    Shailene Woodley's accent was so abysmal in that film that she veers into sounding Jamaican in a few scenes. It's hilariously bad.

    Indeed it was. Abysmal. Adam Driver should’ve learned from all the criticism in the Ridley Scott film. And to add to that, Michael Mann said they distorted the audio files in post to make the accents sound more legit.

    I didn't know that last tidbit but that's even worse! This film was never going to be akin to a blockbuster hit so why he didn't opt to cast even semi-recognizable Italian actors is beyond me. I thought the film was okay overall but it didn't floor me the way I had hoped it would after such a lengthy gap between that and his previous film, Blackhat. Probably one of his weaker outputs, I'm sad to admit.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I dislike fake accents as well. One of the faults in the new Ferrari film by Michael Mann, and House of Gucci and so many others. It’s one think to fake accents within a language, but another conpletely to pretend you have a different nationality and that’s the way you speak another language. It’s in poor taste, I think. A bit offensive even.

    Shailene Woodley's accent was so abysmal in that film that she veers into sounding Jamaican in a few scenes. It's hilariously bad.

    Indeed it was. Abysmal. Adam Driver should’ve learned from all the criticism in the Ridley Scott film. And to add to that, Michael Mann said they distorted the audio files in post to make the accents sound more legit.

    I didn't know that last tidbit but that's even worse! This film was never going to be akin to a blockbuster hit so why he didn't opt to cast even semi-recognizable Italian actors is beyond me. I thought the film was okay overall but it didn't floor me the way I had hoped it would after such a lengthy gap between that and his previous film, Blackhat. Probably one of his weaker outputs, I'm sad to admit.

    I felt the same. And my expectations were through the proverbial roof, seeing that I’m a big Ferrari fan. And a Mann fan as well.
  • Posts: 2,027
    @Benny - Even if the writing wasn't inspired, the casting, directing, and acting should have been.

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @Benny - Even if the writing wasn't inspired, the casting, directing, and acting should have been.

    Agreed.
    The story and writing are key for me. If they get that right, then with a good director and actor the rest should follow. Obviously, that doesn't always happen.
    Cary and Rami are both competent enough to know what they're doing.
  • edited January 31 Posts: 1,451
    talos7 wrote: »
    Yeah. Malek's own was the bigger let down. I was looking forward to seeing an extraordinary Bond villain. Maybe they shouldn't have hyped him that much. Maybe If they hyped Mikkelsen's Le Chiffre, we wouldn't have enjoyed him like we did in CR.

    His motives, and obsession with Swann, were poorly defined and he would have been served better by not having the over the top accent.

    Blofeld should have been the main villain of the movie.

  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 31 Posts: 2,186
    I still don't understand what EON brought back Waltz for in NTTD.....not a single memorable scene from him. Shocking! My first thought when I heard his announcement was, they would make up for his SP low point in NTTD.
  • Posts: 4,303
    Malek’s weird nowhere European accent is quite funny, I have to admit. But then again his character’s name is Lucifer Safin so perhaps you can argue it comes with an element of silliness anyway.

    I mean, had Malek leaned into that a bit more perhaps we could have had something more interesting (not in a campy sort of way, more along the lines of how gleeful Silva comes across in SF, or how a villain like Kananga in LALD or Sanchez in LTK become more unhinged by the finales of their films). That or they should have told him to drop the accent, change the character’s first name, and leaned into the sympathetic/‘fallen angel’ angle a bit more. His performance is a bit bland at times as it is, and it’s the same with Waltz as Blofeld (I’m personally glad he wasn’t the main villain or became the main one by the end - I think it would have been all wrong in the film we got).
  • Posts: 6,710
    The great villain of the last Bond era was Le Chiffre, no doubt. Silva was also very memorable, but he should’ve been given a more memorable name.

    So, in accordance to the thread, we can sumise that, moving forwards, they’ll need better written stories and main antagonists. And that the protagonist must remain faithful to its original ethos, the best he can, whilst dropping the “non relevant” conundrum that has plagued the last instalments as much as the “personal angle/vendetta” one. And no more scooby gang. And a return to espionage, whatever that is nowadays.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 31 Posts: 18,344
    I still don't understand what EON brought back Waltz for in NTTD.....not a single memorable scene from him. Shocking! My first thought when I heard his announcement was, they would make up for his SP low point in NTTD.

    I thought the scene where he was apparently going mad in his prison cell and his voice at the birthday party bash were quite good. That said, I agree that there was little point in bringing the iconic Blofeld character back unless they were going to do more with him and have him appear in more than one film as the main villain. The Craig era was certainly a wasted opportunity in this sense.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,695
    Univex wrote: »
    The great villain of the last Bond era was Le Chiffre, no doubt. Silva was also very memorable, but he should’ve been given a more memorable name.

    So, in accordance to the thread, we can sumise that, moving forwards, they’ll need better written stories and main antagonists. And that the protagonist must remain faithful to its original ethos, the best he can, whilst dropping the “non relevant” conundrum that has plagued the last instalments as much as the “personal angle/vendetta” one. And no more scooby gang. And a return to espionage, whatever that is nowadays.

    Speaking of better names, EON needs to take a break from code names. The only time it’s worked was with Eve Moneypenny. Certainly, DON’T do it with Blofeld. It also meant nothing with Silva. EON shouldn’t talk down to their audience, particularly from a writing standpoint.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,344
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    The great villain of the last Bond era was Le Chiffre, no doubt. Silva was also very memorable, but he should’ve been given a more memorable name.

    So, in accordance to the thread, we can sumise that, moving forwards, they’ll need better written stories and main antagonists. And that the protagonist must remain faithful to its original ethos, the best he can, whilst dropping the “non relevant” conundrum that has plagued the last instalments as much as the “personal angle/vendetta” one. And no more scooby gang. And a return to espionage, whatever that is nowadays.

    Speaking of better names, EON needs to take a break from code names. The only time it’s worked was with Eve Moneypenny. Certainly, DON’T do it with Blofeld. It also meant nothing with Silva. EON shouldn’t talk down to their audience, particularly from a writing standpoint.

    It seemed like they had a colour theme going for a while there with the villain's names - Mr White, Dominic Greene, Silva, maybe even The Pale King. That all seemed to have been dropped by the time of NTTD, however.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    Something that has probably been mentioned already is SUSPENSE.

    Please make the Bond films more suspensefull and less predictable. CR was probably the last film with surprising character developments.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    I still don't understand what EON brought back Waltz for in NTTD.....not a single memorable scene from him. Shocking! My first thought when I heard his announcement was, they would make up for his SP low point in NTTD.

    Bringing back Blofeld for one or two scenes only for him to be killed off seems pointless.
    There are lines in the film that make me feel uneasy.
    After Blofeld has been killed, M and Bond meet so he can go after this unknown force, to which M says, whoever is behind this is going to be very powerful and very dangerous.
    Neither of which is ever really shown. Yes Safin has an island and people move out of his way when he walks past, but this is hardly enough to make MI6 to quake in their boots surely?
    On paper, the story may look better, but on screen the threat that Safin possess is nothing. Confusing maybe.
    If a movie is as good as its villain, then NTTD isn't really that good I'm afraid.
  • edited January 31 Posts: 6,710
    @Benny, that is one of the many reasons I still say NTTD won’t get past the scrutiny of time. It’s not OHMSS different, it’s not even DAD different, it’s just a mess from the 30m mark forward.

    They should course correct away from NTTD, not away from CR, and that’s where Bond should go after Daniel Craig, IMHO.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,695
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    The great villain of the last Bond era was Le Chiffre, no doubt. Silva was also very memorable, but he should’ve been given a more memorable name.

    So, in accordance to the thread, we can sumise that, moving forwards, they’ll need better written stories and main antagonists. And that the protagonist must remain faithful to its original ethos, the best he can, whilst dropping the “non relevant” conundrum that has plagued the last instalments as much as the “personal angle/vendetta” one. And no more scooby gang. And a return to espionage, whatever that is nowadays.

    Speaking of better names, EON needs to take a break from code names. The only time it’s worked was with Eve Moneypenny. Certainly, DON’T do it with Blofeld. It also meant nothing with Silva. EON shouldn’t talk down to their audience, particularly from a writing standpoint.

    It seemed like they had a colour theme going for a while there with the villain's names - Mr White, Dominic Greene, Silva, maybe even The Pale King. That all seemed to have been dropped by the time of NTTD, however.

    Maybe EON was building up to GOLDFINGER, before the Blofeld and Spectre rights came back, lol.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,344
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    The great villain of the last Bond era was Le Chiffre, no doubt. Silva was also very memorable, but he should’ve been given a more memorable name.

    So, in accordance to the thread, we can sumise that, moving forwards, they’ll need better written stories and main antagonists. And that the protagonist must remain faithful to its original ethos, the best he can, whilst dropping the “non relevant” conundrum that has plagued the last instalments as much as the “personal angle/vendetta” one. And no more scooby gang. And a return to espionage, whatever that is nowadays.

    Speaking of better names, EON needs to take a break from code names. The only time it’s worked was with Eve Moneypenny. Certainly, DON’T do it with Blofeld. It also meant nothing with Silva. EON shouldn’t talk down to their audience, particularly from a writing standpoint.

    It seemed like they had a colour theme going for a while there with the villain's names - Mr White, Dominic Greene, Silva, maybe even The Pale King. That all seemed to have been dropped by the time of NTTD, however.

    Maybe EON was building up to GOLDFINGER, before the Blofeld and Spectre rights came back, lol.

    I hope not as they got that villain right on the first attempt. Conversely, there was an argument to be made that Blofeld hadn't been entirely successfully realised in most of the Bond films so he was ripe for revisiting and reimagining. It's just a pity they rather made a hash of doing so in the Craig era.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I do wonder what the Craig era would have looked like had they not got the rights to Blofeld back, until after the Craig run.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,186
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I still don't understand what EON brought back Waltz for in NTTD.....not a single memorable scene from him. Shocking! My first thought when I heard his announcement was, they would make up for his SP low point in NTTD.

    I thought the scene where he was apparently going mad in his prison cell and his voice at the birthday party bash were quite good. That said, I agree that there was little point in bringing the iconic Blofeld character back unless they were going to do more with him and have him appear in appear in more than one film as the main villain. The Craig era was certainly a wasted opportunity in this sense.

    Yeah. That's pretty much it.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 31 Posts: 2,186
    Benny wrote: »
    I still don't understand what EON brought back Waltz for in NTTD.....not a single memorable scene from him. Shocking! My first thought when I heard his announcement was, they would make up for his SP low point in NTTD.

    Bringing back Blofeld for one or two scenes only for him to be killed off seems pointless.
    There are lines in the film that make me feel uneasy.
    After Blofeld has been killed, M and Bond meet so he can go after this unknown force, to which M says, whoever is behind this is going to be very powerful and very dangerous.
    Neither of which is ever really shown. Yes Safin has an island and people move out of his way when he walks past, but this is hardly enough to make MI6 to quake in their boots surely?
    On paper, the story may look better, but on screen the threat that Safin possess is nothing. Confusing maybe.
    If a movie is as good as its villain, then NTTD isn't really that good I'm afraid.

    Yeah, Malek's hype was the problem, because we were expecting an extraordinary villain and we got a petulant villain or throws tantrums.
  • Posts: 2,027
    Part of the enjoyment of a Bond film is a memorable villain. In the Craig era that was Le Chiffre by lightyears and to a lesser degree Silva. Greene is an oddity who doesn't quite fit the mold, but is certainly far more interesting than Blofeld and Safin. When I recall SPECTRE, nothing stands out. That's a film I recall little about. As for NTTD, Safin and Blofeld are always afterthoughts.

    It's been pointed out to me before that all Bond villains don't have to have a big personality like Goldfinger or Blofeld from OHMSS. That's a fair point, but they should be interesting. In the lead up to NTTD there was a great deal of speculation that Safin would turn out to be Dr. No -- not sure how that would have worked -- but Safin was no Dr. No. What worked for Joseph Wiseman did not work for Malek. Maybe Oscar stardom got in the way of the producers. Who knows? But casting a villain is secondary to casting Bond. Get either of those two casting decisions wrong and you have a lesser Bond film.

    Going forward will the producers feel the need to pair the new Bond with another big name Oscar winning villain? Or will they find a compelling lesser known actor who won't make you wish another Oscar winner had been cast? And please, none of the usual suspects showing up in the F&F series as bad guys or tough guys.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    I think that a villain is very often viewed in the light of the film in question. Le Chiffre is rated positively mainly because people like Casino Royale and the overall plot. Sure, Mikkelson does a great job too, but you could also say that the main villain, who is killed by a higher level villain in the middle of the film, cannot be one of the most iconic characters in the series.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Actually, Mr. White is the real villain of the entire era. And an interesting one at that.
  • edited January 31 Posts: 12,837
    Found myself nodding constantly as I was scrolling through this thread then, the baddies have probably been the weakest part of the Craig run.

    As well as the great points people have made above, I’ve sort of missed them having “day jobs”, fronts for their schemes, in the last few. I know that’s not a necessity, my favourite villain is Sanchez, but I do think that archetype generally works best, and we haven’t seen it for a while. Big business type up to no good. It’s just a natural fit for the sort of high class undercover work that Bond does, and it makes the private armies and secret lairs feel slightly more plausible compared to a Blofeld type. I’d love a Musk/Bezos type baddy next time, satirise the billionaire age like TND did with Murdoch.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Found myself nodding constantly as I was scrolling through this thread then, the baddies have probably been the weakest part of the Craig run.

    As well as the great points people have made above, I’ve sort of missed them having “day jobs”, fronts for their schemes, in the last few. I know that’s not a necessity, my favourite villain is Sanchez, but I do think that archetype generally works best, and we haven’t seen it for a while. Big business type up to no good. It’s just a natural fit for the sort of high class undercover work that Bond does, and it makes the private armies and secret lairs feel slightly more plausible compared to a Blofeld type. I’d love a Musk/Bezos type baddy next time, satirise the billionaire age like TND did with Murdoch.

    I miss that sort of element too, on top of Bond running into allies he has an established past with, mysterious women he clearly has a history with (working relationship or otherwise), stuff like that.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited January 31 Posts: 735
    Univex wrote: »
    Actually, Mr. White is the real villain of the entire era. And an interesting one at that.

    Yes, genuinely creepy without need of props ....
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