Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 31 Posts: 16,383
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I think the difference between Bond smoking and drinking is what conveys to the audience.
    He drinks as a vice and to cope with the toll of the job, but him drinking shows he's in control and he's composed.

    Him smoking would be he's smoking because of the toll of the job, but he's struggling with the pressure of it. Smoking isn't seen as socially acceptable and cool as it was in Connery's era, people who smoke now are seen as anxious, like Tommy Shelby in Peaky Blinders.

    One thing James Bond should never be is anxious

    Tend to agree, when I watch TLD and he sparks up at Blayden, nowadays he looks a bit weak and nervous to me, whereas I think it was supposed to represent him being self-assured at the time. The meaning of cigarette smoking has changed over time; it's cinematic shorthand for weakness now, especially in the middle of a meeting(!).

    The conversation is moot really anyway, it's not going to happen. Bond gave up smoking cigarettes regularly onscreen over 50 years ago. May as well ask for him to wear a frilly shirt with his dinner suit again! :D
  • Posts: 1,340
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's a bit of a bastard no doubt, and he doesn't see morality as black and white, but he's not unlikeable, neither is he an anti-hero. If anything it's the fact that he's likeable and ultimately virtuous which makes his character work.

    Bond is a bastard but he is "our bastard".

    I think part of the appeal is that he does things we can't do.
  • Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's a bit of a bastard no doubt, and he doesn't see morality as black and white, but he's not unlikeable, neither is he an anti-hero. If anything it's the fact that he's likeable and ultimately virtuous which makes his character work.

    Bond is a bastard but he is "our bastard".

    I think part of the appeal is that he does things we can't do.

    There’s an element of that for sure. I have a friend who says the major reason his favourite heroes are Bond and Batman is because they are, for all intents and purposes, ordinary men (I suppose he means that in the sense they don’t have superpowers nor do they have anything innately beyond the realms of plausibility in theory) who do extraordinary things. That and there’s something quite nice about the idea of such a man saving the world and that sort of stuff.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Bond appeals to me because of the fantasy element. He lives the danger and the good life. He has many vices and gets away with them. He kills in cold blood, drops a line of dry humor, and takes a girl to bed without remorse. His most important skill may be not giving a damn. In that sense, I think he is not at all like Batman, though I can see why your friend likes them for the same reason, @007HallY.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's a bit of a bastard no doubt, and he doesn't see morality as black and white, but he's not unlikeable, neither is he an anti-hero. If anything it's the fact that he's likeable and ultimately virtuous which makes his character work.

    Bond is a bastard but he is "our bastard".

    I think part of the appeal is that he does things we can't do.

    So meta.
  • edited May 31 Posts: 4,139
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Bond appeals to me because of the fantasy element. He lives the danger and the good life. He has many vices and gets away with them. He kills in cold blood, drops a line of dry humor, and takes a girl to bed without remorse. His most important skill may be not giving a damn. In that sense, I think he is not at all like Batman, though I can see why your friend likes them for the same reason, @007HallY.

    I think both characters can fall into similar extremes. Batman can be depicted as infallible, one dimensional, and even a bit remorseless too. But we’ve seen both these characters get similar touches of humanity in so many different versions - both have had to deal with the impact of their vices in more than one incarnation, both have fallen in love, dealt with uncertainty etc. I think both characters work best when you have those touches between that aspirational fantasy, and hence what I think my friend means in part.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    mtm wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I think the difference between Bond smoking and drinking is what conveys to the audience.
    He drinks as a vice and to cope with the toll of the job, but him drinking shows he's in control and he's composed.

    Him smoking would be he's smoking because of the toll of the job, but he's struggling with the pressure of it. Smoking isn't seen as socially acceptable and cool as it was in Connery's era, people who smoke now are seen as anxious, like Tommy Shelby in Peaky Blinders.

    One thing James Bond should never be is anxious

    Tend to agree, when I watch TLD and he sparks up at Blayden, nowadays he looks a bit weak and nervous to me, whereas I think it was supposed to represent him being self-assured at the time. The meaning of cigarette smoking has changed over time; it's cinematic shorthand for weakness now, especially in the middle of a meeting(!).

    The conversation is moot really anyway, it's not going to happen. Bond gave up smoking cigarettes regularly onscreen over 50 years ago. May as well ask for him to wear a frilly shirt with his dinner suit again! :D

    Very true my friend
  • Posts: 939
    They shouldn't promote the unhealthy habit, even though the women in the Bond films make it look seductive.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    If we're really to the point we shouldn't be "promoting" something unhealthy in a Bond film, then I struggle to understand why they continue to have him drink.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,646
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    If we're really to the point we shouldn't be "promoting" something unhealthy in a Bond film, then I struggle to understand why they continue to have him drink.

    I'm fine with Bond smoking when it feels right, like in a casino. Same with drinking. He can drink when I would have one. We're all human. I agree with the discussion that Bond should not be some model for physical or philosophical health.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 31 Posts: 16,383
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I agree with the discussion that Bond should not be some model for physical or philosophical health.

    He isn't for the most part, although he obviously is supposed to be pretty much the peak of manhood; but as I say, we reached this point in the Bond films where he stopped smoking cigarettes regularly over 50 years ago, before a good deal of people posting here I'd guess were born, and certainly time enough to get used to it. Alcohol isn't banned indoors in a huge amount of countries as smoking is, we don't hide drinks bottles in plain labels behind shutters in shops, and smoking, unlike drinking, is being eyed up for a total ban in the UK right now- they're not the exact same thing.
    Maybe eventually it will be and 007 will stop drinking then too. It's just the passage of time.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 95
    delfloria wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    If we're looking
    delfloria wrote: »
    I hope we don't get a gym guy. I never got the feeling that Fleming's or the classic film Bond was dedicated to working out. Seemed to be more about pleasure than pain.

    Yeah but it's too late for that. We are in the S. XXI. Nobody is going to believe that a skinny guy can do what Bond does.

    Not going to the gym doesn't mean skinny. I would imagine Bond does a lot of calisthenics at home: "prison workouts." There's also things like running and swimming that get you in good enough shape.

    In fact, I can't help but think that Fleming's Bond would dislike the gym and gym culture and dismiss it as a modern fad not worth participating in (and M would not hire gym-goers to MI6)

    I'm not talking about "gym culture". What I'm saying is that the new actor is going to get beefy.

    And that goes to my original comment................... Bond does not have to be "beefy" just fit. He should train for an assignment but not be in "Top Physical Body Building Shape" all the time. Hey, what the heck do I know................ I think he should still drink, have casual sex and..................smoke occasionally.

    No, the films do not need to include smoking anymore. They were correct to get rid of that.

    Then we get to disagree. People always on the edge of being killed in the line of duty should be given the latitude to smoke. Even Bond.

    They shouldn't bring smoking back because we shouldn't show smoking as "cool" anymore. There is a reason they got rid of it thirty years ago.

    We shouldn't show killing as "cool" either but that IS what Bond does. So why not have him smoke as well?

    +1. Why do people forget that Bond is meant to be unlikeable?

    How exactly is Bond meant to be unlikeable? And if he's unlikeable, how does he attract all the women he does in the films and novels? How does Bond being unlikable contribute to the best films

    Ask Fleming himself, man.
    https://spymovienavigator.com/video/ian-fleming-didnt-intend-james-bond-to-be-likeable/

    “I didn’t intend for Bond to be likeable. He’s a blunt instrument in the hands of the government. He’s got vices and few perceptible virtues.”

    Besides, lots of unlikeable men attract women. Women fall in love with prisoners all the time.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 31 Posts: 16,383
    Saying he's got 'few perceptible virtues' is an odd way of looking at him, even for his creator. He's brave, resourceful and determined and is always on the side of the angels, often saving millions of lives. I think he's trying to play up the dangerous side a bit there- he was good at PR!
    Regardless, book Bond isn't movie Bond, where he's even more the hero.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Fleming maybe didn't "intend" for Bond to be likeable, but that's what he's become. Even in the novels, as Bond matured and he had doubts about himself, or his job, deep melancholy, alcoholism, sometimes he was a hot mess, but he became somewhat more relatable. He struggled, just like you and me, which is relateable, if not quite likeable.

    But he also endured, during times of crisis, right from the start. He endured pain and suffering, and is, ultimately, triumphant. Sorry, Mr. Fleming, but these are likeable qualities.

    And he fights for all of us, when he's stopping Drax from blowing up London, or when he's taking down SMERSH or SPECTRE. Honourable. And extremely likeable.

    The films, smartly made him more likeable...

    As for smoking: you can't put the paste back in the tube. We know what "coffin nails" do to people. We've been exposed to the evil and destructive nature the tobacco companies have wrought. It's been exposed for what it is. So having a classy man such as James Bond suck back smouldering chemicals deep ino his lungs is, in short, unattractive.

    As for having a fit Bond, yes, why wouldn't we want this? Like with cigarettes, so much is known about the science of fitness, of lifting heavy weights and how it actually expands life and improves day to day wear and tear.

    If you're a spy, and you're jumping, shooting, fighting, running, diving, swimming, driving at high speeds, taking on megalomaniacs and their henchmen/subordinates, then training with weights increases power and strength, but also agility and strength of the joints. You don't have to look like Ronnie Coleman to be fit and strong (and in Ronnie's case, he broke himself). But any actor playing James Bond should look like a man that when he hits, he does damage. When you hit him, he not only has the skill to absorb the punch, but his body could do so as well (and potentially, by hitting him, you may have a good chance at also hurting your fist on impact). I want it to look believable that a man can hold onto the outside of a helicopter, or take on (even if it's a losing cause), a Mr. Hinx, or be as fast and swift as to battle with a Mr. Slate. I want to see a man fit enough to crash through walls and leap from heights (and survive), while chasing down a bombmaker....
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yes, indeed. Craig nailed it when he told Simon Waterson that he had to 'look like I'm capable of killing somebody' - and not in the Harold Shipman sense.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, indeed. Craig nailed it when he told Simon Waterson that he had to 'look like I'm capable of killing somebody' - and not in the Harold Shipman sense.

    Exactly, @Venutius , and the thing is, modern-Bond doesn't have to like "the gym", nor does the actor playing him, but both the character and the actor knows that it's necessary if they're to be believed in this role.

    Spectre came close with this concept (Madeleine asks if he exercises, and Bond replies "when I have to").

    I wouldn't mind seeing a training scene and have Bond piss and grumble about it afterwards. Bond doesn't have to like keeping fit, but if he wants to keep his double-O he knows he has to maintain a certain high level of fitness.

    And that's what makes the martinis go down a little faster.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 31 Posts: 3,152
    Yes, absolutely. I like this. That line in SP got a wry grin from me when I first saw it. Had the same response, for the same reason, with his reaction to Nomi in NTTD telling him that she was an over-achiever.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    I want a 3 pack a day Chesterfield Bond
  • Posts: 1,859
    peter wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, indeed. Craig nailed it when he told Simon Waterson that he had to 'look like I'm capable of killing somebody' - and not in the Harold Shipman sense.

    Exactly, @Venutius , and the thing is, modern-Bond doesn't have to like "the gym", nor does the actor playing him, but both the character and the actor knows that it's necessary if they're to be believed in this role.

    Spectre came close with this concept (Madeleine asks if he exercises, and Bond replies "when I have to").

    I wouldn't mind seeing a training scene and have Bond piss and grumble about it afterwards. Bond doesn't have to like keeping fit, but if he wants to keep his double-O he knows he has to maintain a certain high level of fitness.

    And that's what makes the martinis go down a little faster.

    This echoes back to what I was saying. Fit but not a Gym Rat. In the books he trained when he had to.

    Also, someone else mentioned liking the idea of Bond smoking a joint instead of a cigarette. I can't think of anything more abhorrent for the character to do. It is THE total atheists of the character as Fleming envisioned him. OK, let's just completely reinvent the character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I want a 3 pack a day Chesterfield Bond

    Not sure Bond's that into sofas.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I want a 3 pack a day Chesterfield Bond

    Using a wheelchair? Attached to an oxygen tank and mask?

    (I kid, but, a guy who smokes three packs a day would have problems running a flight of stairs, in most cases).
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    I want a 3 pack a day Chesterfield Bond
    Chesterfield, eh? Why, that's premium quality. How about some scrambled eggs in NY as well.
  • Posts: 1,987
    @Peter - any actor playing James Bond should look like a man that when he hits, he does damage. Which is one of the reasons RM never convinced me he was JB. He was too prim and dapper. But his was a different Bond and who nonetheless was very successful in the role.

  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,208
    Sadly some seem to see anyone with an athletic, muscular build as a” gym rat” It speaks volumes.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @Peter - any actor playing James Bond should look like a man that when he hits, he does damage. Which is one of the reasons RM never convinced me he was JB. He was too prim and dapper. But his was a different Bond and who nonetheless was very successful in the role.

    @CrabKey , Roger last played 007 in '85. He, and his films, were a product of a different era. I think if Roger were cast today, he'd be ordered into six months of training with a proper progressive program in place.

    There was a reason why Craig's trainer, a man with a military background, was hired (and the first thing he told Craig was quit the smokes and ham n cheese sandwiches, 😂).

    But going back to Moore: I think not training him properly was a missed opportunity. The man was tall and broad. He had the structure to have an incredibly fit physique.

    Seeing him fight in the belly dancer's room in TMWTGG showed a man who seemed much taller and broader than the goons. I don't know why they didn't capitalize on Moore's size, give him a basic fitness regiment to tighten his middle and chest, keep his fighting skills simple and clean, and he would have presented, when needed, a much more deadly version of himself (which wouldn't have taken away from his god given charm).
  • Posts: 1,987
    What attracts me to Bond is his life and style are not the same as mine. I like that fantasy for a couple of hours every few years. If I need lessons on how to behave in today's world and what is right and proper, I'll turn to Miss Manners.
  • Posts: 939
    Interestingly, the average fist fight per film is 3-4, and a few extra in Craig's era. I wouldn't want to see a John Wick style 10-minute combat, long fights are dated. He should be quick and deadly in close combat.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 31 Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    What attracts me to Bond is his life and style are not the same as mine. I like that fantasy for a couple of hours every few years. If I need lessons on how to behave in today's world and what is right and proper, I'll turn to Miss Manners.

    @CrabKey , I'm not sure I'm understanding this last post? Is someone talking about right and proper behavior?

    Personally I want to see a man who is believable in the role. One who "looks the part". I loved when Craig is topless in QoS and we see a roadmap of violence tattooed all over his body. He definitely looks the part, but he also carries the scars (externally and internally).

    Edit: @DewiWynBond , yes, 💯!!!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 31 Posts: 16,383
    peter wrote: »

    But going back to Moore: I think not training him properly was a missed opportunity. The man was tall and broad. He had the structure to have an incredibly fit physique.

    Seeing him fight in the belly dancer's room in TMWTGG showed a man who seemed much taller and broader than the goons. I don't know why they didn't capitalize on Moore's size, give him a basic fitness regiment to tighten his middle and chest, keep his fighting skills simple and clean, and he would have presented, when needed, a much more deadly version of himself (which wouldn't have taken away from his god given charm).

    He was one of the most striking people I've ever seen in real life: like a cartoon character come to life. I've never seen someone with such wide shoulders and comparatively short legs - he was all torso, like Johnny Bravo! :D

    The funny thing I always think about Roger and his relatively unconvincing fight scenes (!) is that he probably had about twice the amount of screen fights of all of the other Bonds combined, what with his various long-running TV shows where there would be the requisite two fights per episode.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »

    But going back to Moore: I think not training him properly was a missed opportunity. The man was tall and broad. He had the structure to have an incredibly fit physique.

    Seeing him fight in the belly dancer's room in TMWTGG showed a man who seemed much taller and broader than the goons. I don't know why they didn't capitalize on Moore's size, give him a basic fitness regiment to tighten his middle and chest, keep his fighting skills simple and clean, and he would have presented, when needed, a much more deadly version of himself (which wouldn't have taken away from his god given charm).

    He was one of the most striking people I've ever seen in real life: like a cartoon character come to life. I've never seen someone with such wide shoulders and comparatively short legs - he was all torso, like Johnny Bravo! :D

    Even his jaw and chin looked like it was chiselled by a comicbook artist.
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