Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited June 27 Posts: 2,266
    peter wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Blofeld is so businesslike in the early Bond films that I expected it in SP as well since it was the reboot era.

    I could see a "cuckoo" Blofeld working, but that's the later YOLT-novel Blofeld. It's like they skipped a step, or movie or two, with the character. I could even see him going cuckoo in SP after Bond scarred him.

    Or as others have suggested, they could have just made White into Blofeld after SF, after they got the rights. The scaffolding was there. ("White" is probably a code-name, like all the names in CR and QoS.)

    That might have taken us on a journey to Bond falling in love with Blofeld's daughter, which would have made NTTD very different.

    I always thought White was Blofeld in the first two films of the Craig Era, so when Spectre was announced I was hoping that this would be developed.

    I was butt-hurt when I heard the casting of “Oberhauser” went to Waltz (knowing, like we all did, where this character was going).

    Awh man I wished that was the case. I would’ve been much more shocked by the reveal of White as really being Blofeld as opposed to Waltz’ Blofeld revealing he played a hand in all the events that happened to Craig’s Bond.

    But hey, I wouldn’t trade Waltz Blofeld parading around his eyeball camera in NTTD for the world hahaha.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    I always thought White was going to be Blofeld - taking out Le Chiffre in CR in person being part of his origin story in consolidating power at the top, parallel to Bonds origin story in the rest of the film. Getting shot in the leg and kidnapped at the end of CR/beginning of QoS would also serve as to why he found things a bit more personal with Bond in contrast to the pretty cold person we were shown up to then. Was genuinely disappointed when they threw out the build-up of CR/QoS, knocked off White and had Waltz, well, waltz in and steal the stage.
    echo wrote: »
    "White" is probably a code-name, like all the names in CR and QoS.

    Mr White
    Pale King
    Madeleine Swann

    Always assumed it was a series of codenames/aliases, and not very original ones for such a secret organisation :D

    Would have been a mood change in Spectre at the Rome meeting if it turned out they all had similar codenames. Imagine Hinx walking in and only getting one line:

    "Why am I Mr. Pink?"
  • I wouldn't have enjoyed Oberhauser as Waltz still doing all his nonsense based on his bizarre childhood.
    I did remember reading a proposition somewhere on this forum though where Blofeld pretends to be Oberhauser to draw in Bond, and I think that would have been quite interesting
  • Posts: 1,985
    White as an employee of Quantum who takes control of the company, renaming it SPECTRE and he becoming ESB after being shot by Bond would have been more interesting than petulant adolescent rivalry.
  • meshypushymeshypushy Ireland
    Posts: 142
    CrabKey wrote: »
    White as an employee of Quantum who takes control of the company, renaming it SPECTRE and he becoming ESB after being shot by Bond would have been more interesting than petulant adolescent rivalry.
    Yes to this!
  • Posts: 1,985
    Bottom line: What a waste of a villain. But DAF set the stage for that. If we do see ESB again, hopefully he'll be worthy of being called a villain .
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited June 27 Posts: 4,629
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Bottom line: What a waste of a villain. But DAF set the stage for that. If we do see ESB again, hopefully he'll be worthy of being called a villain .

    I’m pretty sure we will. ESB is more or less Bond’s archenemy. Culturally, Bond’s equivalent of Lex Luthor or Joker. With the legal rights back at EON, they aren’t going to put him and Spectre away for long.
  • meshypushymeshypushy Ireland
    Posts: 142
    Personally, I would like to see a break from ESB and not just ‘ignoring the tropes for the first movie and then reintroducing them bit by bit’ but an actual break from ESB, the DB5, the bad one liners etc. They really just felt bolted on and unnecessary in Craig’s tenure, which was the first time (for me), there was the possibility of a fresh direction which just got slowly pulled back to formula. I would have preferred to see a clean break with Craig - if you’re going to screw the formula, bloody do it properly, without fear of deviating and making half assed nods to the old tropes when the creative juices / confidence run out.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    meshypushy wrote: »
    [T]here was the possibility of a fresh direction which just got slowly pulled back to formula.

    I blame Mendes.

  • Posts: 463
    Venutius wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    When Bond walks into the darkness at the end I feel that we never got that version of his Bond back.
    .Said it before but I can't help but feel that there's a much longer time jump between the events of QOS and those of SF than the four years between the actual films themselves. I can believe that the Bond of QOS eventually became the Bond of SF, but maybe not in just four years...stress of the job not withstanding, obvs.

    I like to think Casino Royale and QOS are 2006 (despite that random 2008 date on that party ticket), and since MI6 is still standing in SP but being readied for demo, I put Skyfall sometime around 2015.
  • Posts: 1,985
    As presented in SP, I don't regard ESB as Bond's arch enemy. Arch enemy suggests several confrontations over time. With no history, except a pathetic explanation of adolescent jealousy and rivalry, it all seems terribly thin and pointless.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited June 28 Posts: 693
    echo wrote: »
    What if Waltz stayed simply Oberhauser and White was Blofeld in SP?

    It would've been far better than what we got, but it still wouldn't have worked overall. Mr. White was very much his own character in CR and QOS and didn't give off megalomaniac vibes. Retcons like this never work.

    You can't introduce a supervillain four movies into a five-film arc, and if you do, you surely can't do it 2/3 of the way through the 4th film. If they really wanted to shoehorn Blofeld into the Craig era, they should have done it in the PTS of Spectre, with no mystery or ponderous buildup to a reveal that everyone had already guessed. That way we'd at least get two full bond vs. Blofeld movies.

    Overall though, they should have just saved Blofeld for Bond #7's arc. Blofeld and SPECTRE never fit into the Craigverse anyway. Quantum was a far more appropriate version of the evil organization trope.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 28 Posts: 3,152
    Always brings me back to a discussion we had in the QOS thread about the extent to which Craig's tenure ended up being shaped by Marc Forster cutting QOS's original ending. Forster said he cut the scene where Bond killed Mr. White so that EON had options about where to go in future. Yeah, not half. He can't possibly have imagined the knock-on effect of taking out a single scene which he said was 'like, a minute' long.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 6,296
    I think White/Christensen definitely had the potential to play TB-filmic Blofeld. And to play unhinged YOLT-novel Blofeld (we saw a glimpse in SP). He's that good an actor. The casting in CR was phenomenal.

    And it might have been interesting to see Bond question the loyalties of Blofeld's daughter in NTTD.

    A lot of "What if"s...
  • Posts: 4,139
    I always thought White was more a field guy than the main boss. I don't think it would have worked making him Blofeld, but I do appreciate that he was brought back. I actually think it's one of the better decisions in SP.

    Anyway, I personally hope we don't see Blofeld again anytime soon. I think making him a sort of James Bond equivalent of Joker or Moriarty with him coming back film after film cheapens the character. Without some sort of deeper connection between the two men Blofeld becomes a bog standard Bond villain. They had the opportunity to play up that idea in SP - much like in the original series and Fleming's novels, the two characters crossed each other's paths, Bond thwarting the organisations plans in CR, and said organisation ultimately being responsible for Vesper's death.

    I also hope we don't see a recurring 'evil organisation' that's not SPECTRE. Most of the time in Bond and non-Bond films/books they tend to be duller versions of SPECTRE anyway (even The Union in Benson's books ultimately falls into that for me, and that actually had some great ideas).
  • I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me. He's not the mantle of a supervillain, he's just a man in charge of an organisation. There's also the fact that Bond simply doesn't care about the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld: whether White called himself that or Oberhauser, the move of the renaming would only serve to excite the audience without adding any actual tension from the move.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 28 Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    I always thought White was more a field guy than the main boss. I don't think it would have worked making him Blofeld, but I do appreciate that he was brought back. I actually think it's one of the better decisions in SP.


    Yeah, White just doesn't feel like the same sort of person as Blofeld to me- he was sort of the middle management, career bad guy rather than the maniacal mastermind. I think I would have bought his turning into Blofeld even less.
    Oberhauser was at least conceived as Blofeld from the start, and feels like him.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me.

    I largely agree, but White seemed like it was a pre-conceived idea, even down to the codename he was using and mannerisms on show. Emotionless, cold, ruthless, etc. All signposted him being ESB and I think would have had a good payoff. Certainly better than the "Hi James, I'm your brother, Ernie!" we ended up getting :D

    But having a dead ESB, massacred Spectre, and a film named Spectre, I hope ESB and the organisation gets a rest for a while now.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me. He's not the mantle of a supervillain, he's just a man in charge of an organisation. There's also the fact that Bond simply doesn't care about the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld: whether White called himself that or Oberhauser, the move of the renaming would only serve to excite the audience without adding any actual tension from the move.

    Yes, this is why the reveal isn't a good one: Waltz reveals his real name is Blofeld, but it's really aimed at the audience and we all saw it coming a mile off. A good reveal should turn the protagonist's world upside-down, like the The Empire Strike's Back's "I am your father"; even if the audience knows it's coming, Luke is still devastated, it still makes a big impact. It's as bad as the Khan reveal in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

    I do think it might be nice to create some sort of reoccurring foe Bond, though. They wouldn't have to be a mastermind, perhaps a mercenary assassin (and we're back to Scaramanga!).
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 1,646
    Need I remind you all that even in the books, ESB is a self-invention from someone who otherwise is lesser than what he becomes. Mr. White would have been a great twist on that with a decent writer.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 28 Posts: 16,383
    I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me. He's not the mantle of a supervillain, he's just a man in charge of an organisation. There's also the fact that Bond simply doesn't care about the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld: whether White called himself that or Oberhauser, the move of the renaming would only serve to excite the audience without adding any actual tension from the move.

    Yes, this is why the reveal isn't a good one: Waltz reveals his real name is Blofeld, but it's really aimed at the audience and we all saw it coming a mile off. A good reveal should turn the protagonist's world upside-down, like the The Empire Strike's Back's "I am your father"; even if the audience knows it's coming, Luke is still devastated, it still makes a big impact. It's as bad as the Khan reveal in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

    I always think the oddest thing about the backstory in Spectre is that Bond doesn't appear to care about it. In Skyfall we can tell the house has meaning for him and is part of his history as a slightly troubled orphan, but with either Oberhauser, son or father, I don't think we're given any sort of glimpse of what he has thought about them. He must have liked Hannes we presume, but he never mentions him; he certainly doesn't seem to bear any sort of grudge against Franz for killing him, or show any feelings about him at all. He hates him more for what he does in the events of the film rather than anything from childhood.
    Maybe the film was just too full with everyone having links and backstory with each other to give space to Bond's feelings, but it seems odd to give your main character this childhood connection and apparently not be affected by it in any way.
    I do think it might be nice to create some sort of reoccurring foe Bond, though. They wouldn't have to be a mastermind, perhaps a mercenary assassin (and we're back to Scaramanga!).

    Now you're talking! I honestly think rebooting the man with the golden gun, more or less the film version of the character, would not be a problem at all. Don't call the film that, just bring him back and give him a better plot this time. I don't mind if he's perhaps the head of a little network of assassins perhaps, something like that, but not a SPECTRE-style mega-corp. Or, yep, give him a spin-off!
    But yeah, I like your idea of him as a recurring foe: perhaps he appears very briefly in the first film, kills someone Bond is trying to get info from, then starts to appear more often, until it comes to a head in the third film or so where he's the main baddie.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 1,646
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited June 28 Posts: 693
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 28 Posts: 3,152
    There was more in some of the earlier SP drafts about Bond and both Oberhausers. Also an explicit explanation of Franz's mental illness.

    Stockmann: 'What's the term, Doctor, for someone who focuses all their misfortune and
    woe upon a single individual?'

    Madeleine: 'A Delusional Paranoiac.'

    Stockmann: 'That has a ring to it, don't you think? Delusional paranoiac. It's a
    term I've heard before. Because at one point in my life I too believed there was one, single person who I could blame for everything. All my torment, all my unhappiness, my pain. I told the doctors. And do you know that they did? They put me in a straitjacket. Gave me electric shocks…it’s a good story so far, no?

    Bond: ‘Gripping…’

    Delusional paranoia is a real condition, so there'd probably have been pushback for demonising mental illness, but at least it would've avoided giving the impression that Blofeld was motivated just by 'adolescent jealousy and rivalry', as Crabkey put it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 28 Posts: 16,383
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    When you say give him the ego, do you mean have him change his personality to become Blofeld? I don't know if you can turn a character into a different one, certainly enough fans complain about Quantum being changed into a subset of Spectre between films, I think we'd never hear the end of it if they'd changed White into Blofeld.
    Also it just becomes a rebranding exercise: one character we already know gets a new name- I'm not sure that adds much. At least in Spectre as we got it we were given a new character.
    Venutius wrote: »
    There was more in some of the earlier SP drafts about Bond and both Oberhausers. Also an explicit explanation of Franz's mental illness.

    Stockmann: 'What's the term, Doctor, for someone who focuses all their misfortune and
    woe upon a single individual?'

    Madeleine: 'A Delusional Paranoiac.'

    Stockmann: 'That has a ring to it, don't you think? Delusional paranoiac. It's a
    term I've heard before. Because at one point in my life I too believed there was one, single person who I could blame for everything. All my torment, all my unhappiness, my pain. I told the doctors. And do you know that they did? They put me in a straitjacket. Gave me electric shocks…it’s a good story so far, no?

    Bond: ‘Gripping…’

    Delusional paranoia is a real condition, so there'd probably have been pushback for demonising mental illness, but at least it would've avoided giving the impression that Blofeld was motivated just by 'adolescent jealousy and rivalry', as Crabkey put it.

    That sounds really interesting, thanks. I keep meaning to seek out those earlier versions.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 1,646
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    Very good point and I agree prestige is distracting from the story now. Let's hope they re-route again, and they likely will for budget. Establish your man, and the talent will come calling.

    Just to further my White-as-ESB argument ... Perhaps White goes through the trouble of the efforts of the novels to change his name and establish more credibility as a way of working up in his organization - he wants more, but doesn't have the status of the politicians and oligarchs he works with, so he decides to fake it. It breeds resentment and gives him motivation, makes it interesting. Would be fascinating to have a story where Bond actually starts to intercept Blofeld as he comes up, rather than having him established as some comic character already. Put the pieces together.

    Would have loved a scene like this - Spectre, they hire a name talent to play Spectre's leader, with Mr. White serving him. Bond's investigation of White slowly reveals he's mysteriously positioning for some big move, but Bond doesn't know what. Finale scene is Bond defeats the big-name actor villain, only for it to actually be part of Mr. White's plan. Move could end with Bond narrowly escaping, or simply already being captive. Then Craig's NTTD would have been the Garden of Death and TMTGG novel stuff, almost an echo of Skyfall's betrayal and well within the Craig era themes.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    So you’ve finally seen NTTD, @slide_99 ? Not just YouTube clips, but you’ve seen the film from start to finish.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 1,646
    peter wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    So you’ve finally seen NTTD, @slide_99 ? Not just YouTube clips, but you’ve seen the film from start to finish.

    I also kind of despise NTTD :) but I did see it opening week.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    LucknFate wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    So you’ve finally seen NTTD, @slide_99 ? Not just YouTube clips, but you’ve seen the film from start to finish.

    I also kind of despise NTTD :) but I did see it opening week.

    Exactly, you actually saw it to form your own opinion. That's fair, and I respect that (as someone who has slid the film into the number one spot on my list).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    https://nofilmschool.com/hollywood-restart

    Interesting little article from this smart fella (and a solid writer).

    But I’ve said here that I’ve heard starts and stops were happening at EoN HQ, and I believe it more than ever; my latest project was supposed to shoot in the UK (Norfolk), in October of ‘23 during the strikes. Delayed to November. Shelved until spring; then June 24/24 (an actual start date!), then late July. We’ve now been pushed into September. Supposedly our cast has stayed with us (I just recently found out), but I’ve never had this many twists and turns and ups and downs.

    It’s really bloody ugly out there.
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