Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me. He's not the mantle of a supervillain, he's just a man in charge of an organisation. There's also the fact that Bond simply doesn't care about the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld: whether White called himself that or Oberhauser, the move of the renaming would only serve to excite the audience without adding any actual tension from the move.

    Yes, this is why the reveal isn't a good one: Waltz reveals his real name is Blofeld, but it's really aimed at the audience and we all saw it coming a mile off. A good reveal should turn the protagonist's world upside-down, like the The Empire Strike's Back's "I am your father"; even if the audience knows it's coming, Luke is still devastated, it still makes a big impact. It's as bad as the Khan reveal in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

    I always think the oddest thing about the backstory in Spectre is that Bond doesn't appear to care about it. In Skyfall we can tell the house has meaning for him and is part of his history as a slightly troubled orphan, but with either Oberhauser, son or father, I don't think we're given any sort of glimpse of what he has thought about them. He must have liked Hannes we presume, but he never mentions him; he certainly doesn't seem to bear any sort of grudge against Franz for killing him, or show any feelings about him at all. He hates him more for what he does in the events of the film rather than anything from childhood.
    Maybe the film was just too full with everyone having links and backstory with each other to give space to Bond's feelings, but it seems odd to give your main character this childhood connection and apparently not be affected by it in any way.

    Or maybe...the final showdown with Blofeld could have been in Oberhauser's childhood home in the Alps? Echoes of SF to be sure (and also OHMSS) but it would make as much sense as returning to the shell of MI6.

    SP is infuriating precisely because there are many alternate versions that people have come up with that are better than the film we got.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 28 Posts: 2,016
    I now like SP the way it is. Although, for sure, it would have been a much better film. I think if SF was a quiet financial success like CR and QoS, deeper attention would have been given to SP.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    LucknFate wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    Very good point and I agree prestige is distracting from the story now. Let's hope they re-route again, and they likely will for budget. Establish your man, and the talent will come calling.

    Just to further my White-as-ESB argument ... Perhaps White goes through the trouble of the efforts of the novels to change his name and establish more credibility as a way of working up in his organization - he wants more, but doesn't have the status of the politicians and oligarchs he works with, so he decides to fake it. It breeds resentment and gives him motivation, makes it interesting. Would be fascinating to have a story where Bond actually starts to intercept Blofeld as he comes up, rather than having him established as some comic character already. Put the pieces together.

    Would have loved a scene like this - Spectre, they hire a name talent to play Spectre's leader, with Mr. White serving him. Bond's investigation of White slowly reveals he's mysteriously positioning for some big move, but Bond doesn't know what. Finale scene is Bond defeats the big-name actor villain, only for it to actually be part of Mr. White's plan. Move could end with Bond narrowly escaping, or simply already being captive. Then Craig's NTTD would have been the Garden of Death and TMTGG novel stuff, almost an echo of Skyfall's betrayal and well within the Craig era themes.

    This would've interesting, and a bit like Koskov trying to manipulate Bond into assassinating Pushkin in TLD.

    I always thought the Tiarra Project in QOS needed more follow-up. Blofeld's big plot could have involved monopolizing the world's water supply in order to poison it with something, either the toxins from his Garden of Death or maybe even NTTD's nanobots.

    It's frustrating because there were so many interesting things they could have done with Spectre but instead they settled for the least interesting plot imaginable: mass surveillance as payback for Bond being a better skier than Blofeld when they were kids.
  • Posts: 1,985
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,646
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.

    That's oversimplifying it. Isn't that nature exactly what elevates ESB above the rest and makes him the most threatening (if done right)? Sort of the point of the character. The man who finally gets to Bond and can get away with it (for a time). A true challenge. And something different, something that would make the writers think and could actually impress an audience.

    I'm not saying I want a five-film ESB narrative, but it's a great second-third movie plot though.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    LucknFate wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.

    That's oversimplifying it. Isn't that nature exactly what elevates ESB above the rest and makes him the most threatening (if done right)? Sort of the point of the character. The man who finally gets to Bond and can get away with it (for a time). A true challenge. And something different, something that would make the writers think and could actually impress an audience.

    I'm not saying I want a five-film ESB narrative, but it's a great second-third movie plot though.

    Exactly, and although we didn’t see a Blofeld in DN, we did hear about his organization, and then he’s the brains behind FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS and DAF. Was Connery-Bond not very good at his job? Blofeld was the recurring villain for pretty much the first decade of Bond’s cinematic life.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited June 28 Posts: 1,646
    peter wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.

    That's oversimplifying it. Isn't that nature exactly what elevates ESB above the rest and makes him the most threatening (if done right)? Sort of the point of the character. The man who finally gets to Bond and can get away with it (for a time). A true challenge. And something different, something that would make the writers think and could actually impress an audience.

    I'm not saying I want a five-film ESB narrative, but it's a great second-third movie plot though.

    Exactly, and although we didn’t see a Blofeld in DN, we did hear about his organization, and then he’s the brains behind FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS and DAF. Was Connery-Bond not very good at his job? Blofeld was the recurring villain for pretty much the first decade of Bond’s cinematic life.

    And there's various ways to really make it work. ESB is also Spectre, an organization, with unknown means and ends. Where would Bond know where to stop, how would he know he got the last of them, etc. Evil organizations breed contingencies. It can be a lot of fun with a focused writer.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.

    Eh, recent films haven't shown MI6 in general to be that competent. In CR the point was to bring back Le Chiffre and the money, and neither happened. In Skyfall M died, MI6 got bombed at Vauxhall, and hacked at the bunker. In NTTD Mallory created Heracles that led to Bonds death, Leiters death and an international incident (presumably) with Japan and Russia.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 28 Posts: 9,509
    LucknFate wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.

    That's oversimplifying it. Isn't that nature exactly what elevates ESB above the rest and makes him the most threatening (if done right)? Sort of the point of the character. The man who finally gets to Bond and can get away with it (for a time). A true challenge. And something different, something that would make the writers think and could actually impress an audience.

    I'm not saying I want a five-film ESB narrative, but it's a great second-third movie plot though.

    Exactly, and although we didn’t see a Blofeld in DN, we did hear about his organization, and then he’s the brains behind FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS and DAF. Was Connery-Bond not very good at his job? Blofeld was the recurring villain for pretty much the first decade of Bond’s cinematic life.

    And there's various ways to really make it work. ESB is also Spectre, an organization, with unknown means and ends. Where would Bond know where to stop, how would he know he got the last of them, etc. Evil organizations breed contingencies. It can be a lot of fun with a focused writer.

    I’m in your camp on this one and agree it could be quite fun to explore.

    Hell, at least it’s a jumping off point to explore antagonists (one being the entity itself, it’s leader, but also all the off-shoots).

    You’re not only a mean driver, you’ve got creative juice too!!
  • Posts: 1,985
    Then the next iteration of ESB needs to be a truly formidable adversary. One whose character and initial motivations have nothing to do with Bond.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    I think we will see Blofeld early in the next era because Eon won't be able to help themselves. Hopefully they can tone down the scar, the cat, the Nehru suit, the camp.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    echo wrote: »
    I think we will see Blofeld early in the next era because Eon won't be able to help themselves. Hopefully they can tone down the scar, the cat, the Nehru suit, the camp.

    Yes, EON will probably want a big overall villain for the next era. Bring on the YOLT gold tooth, instead!
  • meshypushymeshypushy Ireland
    Posts: 142
    echo wrote: »
    I think we will see Blofeld early in the next era because Eon won't be able to help themselves. Hopefully they can tone down the scar, the cat, the Nehru suit, the camp.
    ESB needs a rest - please give us a rotating cast of villains, as per the Brosnan era. Another naff ESB and we’re on a slippery slope to parody (Dr Evil etc).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 28 Posts: 16,382
    peter wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Again... a good writer could have given White the ego he needed to become ESB like in the books. It would say a lot about the character for Bond to learn this White character went through the trouble of faking a bloodline and changing his name etc. as a clear power move or something. It could have worked. It would have been more than just a name drop for fans if you ... wrote it to be something else. Don't assume they would have otherwise stayed the course they took with Spectre if White was ESB.

    There is a good reason many thought he would become ESB from CR and then QoS. He was a powerful, intriguing, mean, witty villain we wanted to see more of. I think we've all just been let down by Spectre.

    The producers wouldn't have gone for it. Starting with SF they only wanted big stars for their villains. Bardem, Waltz, and Malek had all recently won Oscars before being scooped up for Bond. They weren't going to go back to hiring lesser-known actors for their lead roles.

    The obsession with prestige was a huge problem for the second half of the Craig era. Between Mendes, Fiennes, Bardem, Waltz, Malek, Logan, Hoytema, Sandgren, and Deakins you had a ton of Oscar-caliber talent in front of and behind the cameras, yet it resulted in worse movies because the producers lost focus on what makes Bond movies work.

    So you’ve finally seen NTTD, @slide_99 ? Not just YouTube clips, but you’ve seen the film from start to finish.

    I also kind of despise NTTD :) but I did see it opening week.

    Exactly, you actually saw it to form your own opinion. That's fair, and I respect that (as someone who has slid the film into the number one spot on my list).

    I've found myself watching it the last couple of weeks, must admit it's grown in my affections.
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think characters "becoming" Blofeld would very much disappoint me. He's not the mantle of a supervillain, he's just a man in charge of an organisation. There's also the fact that Bond simply doesn't care about the name Ernst Stavro Blofeld: whether White called himself that or Oberhauser, the move of the renaming would only serve to excite the audience without adding any actual tension from the move.

    Yes, this is why the reveal isn't a good one: Waltz reveals his real name is Blofeld, but it's really aimed at the audience and we all saw it coming a mile off. A good reveal should turn the protagonist's world upside-down, like the The Empire Strike's Back's "I am your father"; even if the audience knows it's coming, Luke is still devastated, it still makes a big impact. It's as bad as the Khan reveal in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

    I always think the oddest thing about the backstory in Spectre is that Bond doesn't appear to care about it. In Skyfall we can tell the house has meaning for him and is part of his history as a slightly troubled orphan, but with either Oberhauser, son or father, I don't think we're given any sort of glimpse of what he has thought about them. He must have liked Hannes we presume, but he never mentions him; he certainly doesn't seem to bear any sort of grudge against Franz for killing him, or show any feelings about him at all. He hates him more for what he does in the events of the film rather than anything from childhood.
    Maybe the film was just too full with everyone having links and backstory with each other to give space to Bond's feelings, but it seems odd to give your main character this childhood connection and apparently not be affected by it in any way.

    Or maybe...the final showdown with Blofeld could have been in Oberhauser's childhood home in the Alps? Echoes of SF to be sure (and also OHMSS) but it would make as much sense as returning to the shell of MI6.

    Ooh! I don't hate it!
    CrabKey wrote: »
    A recurring villain makes me wonder if the good guy isn't very good at his job.


    Yikes: don't watch the Connery 007 films then!
  • Posts: 1,985
    I revisited QoS again last night. I've seen the much criticized opening car sequence so many times it no longer bothers me, along the with the title song. It is a much shorter film, more along the lines of the early Bonds. Bond is leaner and meaner here than in later entries. The fight with Greene is actually a lot of fun. Very amped up. In the Craig series my list is CR, QoS, SF, NTTD, SP.
  • I think if they want to go for Blofeld they could what Fleming did with his Blofeld trilogy.
    Bond 26- A freelance PMC is killing intelligence assets, Bond protects an asset, thwarts some assassination attempts, and tracks the PMC back to its base where he meets Blofeld and SPECTRE
    Bond 27- An unrelated story, where SPECTRE are mentioned and they are believed to be the villains but instead the story runs as an MR adaptation
    Bond 28- A DAF inspired story where weapons are being smuggled to a dodgy regime. Bond, via entering the pipeline, finds out weapons grade uranium is also being sold to be put in a dirty bomb. SPECTRE and Blofeld get away still.
    Bond 29- An assassin sent from Blofeld, one of the world's best, chases Bond while Bond is sent to kill Blofeld.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,207
    Since it's being discussed here, this is how I would have wanted to see SPECTRE and the introduction of Blofeld handled.

    As "SPECTRE'' opens we see that the Mi-6 is now more knowledgeable of Quantum and has been trying to gather more information on their operations. While tracking known members a disturbing trend is noticed, systematically Quantum operatives are being eliminated and the worldwide organization eradicated. The Americans, Russians and Chinese are considered as possibilities but that is quickly dismissed. It's more likely a competitor, a rival.

    Bond is sent after one of the few remaining members of Quantum, Mr. White. After a game of cat and mouse Bond corners White and offers him protection. Terrified and hopeless White raises a gun to his head. Looking Bond in the eyes he pauses and takes a deep slow breath; exhaling he says a single word, "Spectre". The screen goes black to the sound of a gunshot.

    We come to find that Quantum was a renegade faction of SPECTRE operatives. With the name of the organization to go by, Bond sets out to find the head of the snake; of course this leads to ESB
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I've found myself watching it the last couple of weeks, must admit it's grown in my affections.

    I can go on about why this was a beautifully conceived and executed film, but I’m so happy to hear that you’re finding things that are elevating your opinions!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    peter wrote: »
    I've found myself watching it the last couple of weeks, must admit it's grown in my affections.

    I can go on about why this was a beautifully conceived and executed film, but I’m so happy to hear that you’re finding things that are elevating your opinions!

    I *love* the texture they added with this song:

  • Posts: 561
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I've found myself watching it the last couple of weeks, must admit it's grown in my affections.

    I can go on about why this was a beautifully conceived and executed film, but I’m so happy to hear that you’re finding things that are elevating your opinions!

    I *love* the texture they added with this song:


    I am very much pro-"No Time to Die", so this isn't a surprise, but that opening scene at Madeleine's house is *so* good. Every beat in it is just perfect. And then that cut decades later into the future with her coming out of the water — awesome.
  • Posts: 1,985
    While I like NTTD, I am not terribly enthusiastic about the film. I don't need to dwell on my perceived negatives. But, I do very much like Craig as Bond. No, I don't think he exhibits the qualities I found so engaging in Connery, but Craig is today's Bond, which I think puts a lot of pressure on the next actor. The next actor is going to be very much in that who comes after Connery role? How much do I think Craig owns the role? Last night I tried to watch Goldeneye. As much as I like Pierce Brosnan in other roles, I had to stop watching because, like RM, Brosnan never convinces me he is Bond. I see actor Brosnan playing a character named James Bond, but I never believe for a second he is James Bond. Along comes Craig who, like SC, owns the role. Bond 7 will have his work cut out for him.
  • edited June 29 Posts: 1,340
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I revisited QoS again last night. I've seen the much criticized opening car sequence so many times it no longer bothers me, along the with the title song. It is a much shorter film, more along the lines of the early Bonds. Bond is leaner and meaner here than in later entries. The fight with Greene is actually a lot of fun. Very amped up. In the Craig series my list is CR, QoS, SF, NTTD, SP.

    It's short and It has a lot of action.
    Is it the best Bond movie ever? No but it's the kind of movie Statham should have on his resume.


  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 29 Posts: 2,016
    QoS has always been a favorite of mine. The ultra-raw intensity of Craig's Bond ended in this film...sadly, of course.
    I still enjoy him in SF, SP & NTTD for sure. But I missed that unhinged tenacity of his CR/QoS Bond.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.
  • edited June 29 Posts: 4,139
    QBranch wrote: »
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.

    One cinematography moment in QOS that always irks me in a weird way is when Green and his men enter the hotel for the meeting with the General. For some reason it was decided that one of these shots should focus on some bowling balls in the foreground with them walking in the background. For other reasons it was decided to leave this in the final edit...

    QOS actually has some good looking cinematography, but it's things like that and the cross cutting to the horse race/Tosca opera during which really give me first year Film School student vibes. Like it's consciously trying to be clever/well composed but it's ultimately meaningless.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    007HallY wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.

    One cinematography moment in QOS that always irks me in a weird way is when Green and his men enter the hotel for the meeting with the General. For some reason it was decided that one of these shots should focus on some bowling bowls in the foreground with them walking in the background. For other reasons it was decided to leave this in the final edit...

    QOS actually has some good looking cinematography, but it's things like that and the cross cutting to the horse race/Tosca opera during which really give me first year Film School student vibes. Like it's consciously trying to be clever/well composed but it's ultimately meaningless.

    The cross-cutting used to annoy the hell out of me, especially when, for half a second or so, we see an Italian man look up in confusion or anger after someone got shot by Mitchell. Yes, collateral damage is tragic, but you either explore it thematically, or you don't. This almost subliminal flash takes me out of the chase every time because I'm expecting a follow-up scene which I know I won't get. Yes, the editing of QOS is a compilation of strange choices which I have now, probably from seeing them so often, grown a weird liking for -- almost like Stockholm Syndrome. ;-)
  • Posts: 4,139
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.

    One cinematography moment in QOS that always irks me in a weird way is when Green and his men enter the hotel for the meeting with the General. For some reason it was decided that one of these shots should focus on some bowling bowls in the foreground with them walking in the background. For other reasons it was decided to leave this in the final edit...

    QOS actually has some good looking cinematography, but it's things like that and the cross cutting to the horse race/Tosca opera during which really give me first year Film School student vibes. Like it's consciously trying to be clever/well composed but it's ultimately meaningless.

    The cross-cutting used to annoy the hell out of me, especially when, for half a second or so, we see an Italian man look up in confusion or anger after someone got shot by Mitchell. Yes, collateral damage is tragic, but you either explore it thematically, or you don't. This almost subliminal flash takes me out of the chase every time because I'm expecting a follow-up scene which I know I won't get. Yes, the editing of QOS is a compilation of strange choices which I have now, probably from seeing them so often, grown a weird liking for -- almost like Stockholm Syndrome. ;-)

    Usually it's a case with editing where certain shot choices become clearer on rewatches because the film flows and everything kinda blends together naturally... with QOS it's because you can't actually make everything out.

    The other scene that always confused and annoyed me is when Bond, M and Tanner are walking through MI6. There's a weird disregard for the basic rules of cinematography (the 180 degree rule mainly) and it's the weirdest thing trying to track where they're moving from shot to shot as the camera seems to radically shift position and the shots are so quick.

    It's why I always suspect that a lot of the editing problems may well come down to how this film was shot. Actually some of the action sequences seemingly shot by the Second Unit are a lot better pieced together.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    007HallY wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.

    One cinematography moment in QOS that always irks me in a weird way is when Green and his men enter the hotel for the meeting with the General. For some reason it was decided that one of these shots should focus on some bowling balls in the foreground with them walking in the background. For other reasons it was decided to leave this in the final edit...

    QOS actually has some good looking cinematography, but it's things like that and the cross cutting to the horse race/Tosca opera during which really give me first year Film School student vibes. Like it's consciously trying to be clever/well composed but it's ultimately meaningless.

    The tomato lady!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Not enough is said about the QOS cinematography and camera positioning - I could probably write an essay on it if time wasn't like a bullet.

    One cinematography moment in QOS that always irks me in a weird way is when Green and his men enter the hotel for the meeting with the General. For some reason it was decided that one of these shots should focus on some bowling balls in the foreground with them walking in the background. For other reasons it was decided to leave this in the final edit...

    QOS actually has some good looking cinematography, but it's things like that and the cross cutting to the horse race/Tosca opera during which really give me first year Film School student vibes. Like it's consciously trying to be clever/well composed but it's ultimately meaningless.

    The tomato lady!

    @mtm
    I really don't like that moment. It seems intended for comedy? I mean, the woman is lamenting her broken jars, like in some old Laurel & Hardy flick. But that feels tonally awkward given the seriousness of Bond chasing Mitchell.
  • Posts: 4,139
    Oh yeah, the Tomato Lady! I always thought that was just a way of getting in some humour.

    I actually don't mind that to be honest. It's not the best placed moment tonally (a lot of the time the double taking pigeons or drunk men looking at their wine bottles in disbelief are placed as a sort of cathartic moment of humour after a big Bondian scene -ie. when Bond is riding his inflated gondola down Venice after being chased, or when the Lotus exits the water) but it's not unprecedented for Bond and as a quick moment it's fine for me.

    Something like a random cut to the aftermath of the shooting at the horse race as Bond leaps from the roofs in that QOS chase, for me, is more distracting.
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