Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • First: I think there are plenty of Fleming elements that should be used. There are plenty of small and interesting things touched on that could be focused on for the next era. Something like Bond not taking the job seriously until it gets the better of him, or even something like the FAVTAK short story.

    Secondly, I don't think the films have had the best plots over the last 40 years. I think the films should continue to be original because there's simply too much of a barrier to copy any other sort of continuation work. There's also more volume of literary Bond so that's natural that Gardner and Benson over 20 attempts (and the other celebrities over another 6) could achieve higher highs. Over the last 40 years the best film with little Fleming influence is probably one of Skyfall, Goldeneye or The Living Daylights, and those films reach similar heights to the Horowitz and Gardner eras.
  • Posts: 1,837
    Adapt a Fleming novel as closely as one can or keep writing 100% original screenplays.
    In name only stories don't work for me, nor do screenplays that sample bit and pieces of previous films and novels as if that somehow legitimizes new works. The original YOLT was an abominable adaptation. All Safin's garden of death did was remind me of a better novel and WHATTITW reminded me of a better film.


  • edited September 10 Posts: 3,824
    The thing to remember here about wholly faithful adaptations of the 'remaining' Fleming novels is that they probably wouldn't give us a very good film. MR's a great book, but I can't see something like Drax's origin story being compelling or unique nowadays. It's been done so many times since, and not just in Bond. Even if you replaced the rocket with some other bit of tech/use the idea of a shady industrialist using it to destroy London, this has been done so many times. The climax amounts to Bond and Gala in a bunker. It's not suitable for a full adaptation in my opinion.

    There's DAF I suppose, but the villains are forgettable and I'm not sure there's enough there for a full film either. I guess you can use Spectreville, although something like TMWTGG's fun house isn't a million miles from that, and even Silva's abandoned island is very much in the spirit of it being a ghost town. Both of those ideas are far more creative and interesting riffs on the basic idea of that source material in my opinion.

    I can't see TSWLM being used either, even just as a PTS. Maybe the broad ideas can be adapted (ie. the Bond girl being caught up by chance in the villain's scheme, her falling for Bond and him eventually walking out on her, perhaps elements of Viv's character/past etc), but not faithfully. YOLT and TMWTGG are so specific with their inclusion of Blofeld that you really have to use the broad ideas rather than specific plot points (ie. M lying to Bond for his 'own good' as we see in SF, Bond recovering from something traumatic throughout the story, the villain slowly being consumed by his madness/obsession etc). I can't see the amnesia plot ever being used (it was a bit of a cliche even in Fleming's time, albeit one done in a creative way in YOLT. Anyway, the basic theme of fate always bringing Bond back to the 'spy game'/him never being able to settle down with a normal life was there in NTTD). The brainwashing/assassination subplot is another I can't see being done in a straightforward adaptation. Honestly, something like Bond being used as a pawn to kill Pushkin in TLD isn't far away from that idea (just remove the brainwashing, which again can be a bit hoakey, and it's Bond being used to assassinate an ally).

    You can maybe include broad elements of FAVTAK (I actually love the idea of a motorcycle assassination) and the other short stories... but really I think it's better just to use Fleming's work as a bouncing off point for new ideas, similar to the ways I pointed out. It's very much a skill in itself, and I think P&W and the other creators involved in the recent Bond movies have done relatively well at this. I'd go as far to say that doing this is unavoidable, and without even a trace of Fleming's work it's not a Bond film anymore.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,099
    Yes, good post, totally agree.

    I even think a faithful, period adaptation of Moonraker wouldn't be all that great. It's a pretty hokey story really, and has been riffed upon and added to so many times since that the original will seem a bit tame and straightforward in film form.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,170
    Horowitz did a great job with updating the Moonraker concept with his Alex Rider novel Skeleton Key - switching the setting to Cuba and having the CIA be involved (as well as shifting the villain from a secret Nazi to a vengeful former Soviet who was seeking retribution for his child who was killed in Afghanistan) just to add additional flavour to what is ultimately a fairly straightforward story.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 887
    To be fair though, you could say much the same about Casino Royale. That's basically about Bond playing cards at a hotel and having another ill fated tryst with a woman who dies before the end. The book gave the script good bones, though, and we got one of the best Bond films.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 10 Posts: 3,747
    To be fair though, you could say much the same about Casino Royale. That's basically about Bond playing cards at a hotel and having another ill fated tryst with a woman who dies before the end. The book gave the script good bones, though, and we got one of the best Bond films.

    Casino Royale is a faithful adaptation just like the 60s Bond films did (DN, FRWL, TB, and OHMSS), it's just that the book didn't became available until 2006 due to the rights.

    I think what could be the best example here is Licence To Kill, which adapted some scenes from Live And Let Die the book (Felix being mauled to a shark, "he disagreed with something that ate him" line, happened in a fictional island, and a villain using a religious cult), but it worked, I guess, it's more of a straight adaptation of the book than the 1973 film with Roger Moore, just replaced the Latins with the Blacks and it would be too close to the source material.
  • Posts: 3,824
    The second half of CR is relatively faithful to a point, but it adapts very heavily. The first half is nearly wholly original, and the second half changes things like Le Chiffre’s henchman using his cane gun to threaten Bond (obviously we get the poisoning instead, and that’s much more elaborate but cinematic). We have the sinking house, an added fight in the staircase, and even Bond/Vesper’s relationship is significantly changed from the page.

    The difference between CR and MR anyway is that CR’s story was relatively untouched by EON. It’s an unusual Bond novel even for Fleming. It had a freshness to it. Much of MR is in films like DAD and GE (not to mention the gambling scene in OP) and of course things like Alex Rider as mentioned. The bare bone plot doesn’t have as much freshness, at least by the second half. It’d need a heavier adaptation than CR did, and I suspect even then it’d become a different story.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    Horowitz did a great job with updating the Moonraker concept with his Alex Rider novel Skeleton Key - switching the setting to Cuba and having the CIA be involved (as well as shifting the villain from a secret Nazi to a vengeful former Soviet who was seeking retribution for his child who was killed in Afghanistan) just to add additional flavour to what is ultimately a fairly straightforward story.

    Oh right, I thought the first Alex Rider (Stormbreaker?) was enough of a Moonraker ripoff in itself! :D
    007HallY wrote: »
    The difference between CR and MR anyway is that CR’s story was relatively untouched by EON. It’s an unusual Bond novel even for Fleming. It had a freshness to it. Much of MR is in films like DAD and GE (not to mention the gambling scene in OP) and of course things like Alex Rider as mentioned. The bare bone plot doesn’t have as much freshness, at least by the second half. It’d need a heavier adaptation than CR did, and I suspect even then it’d become a different story.

    Yeah exactly: Moonraker is a pretty hoary old story about a villain trying to blow up London with a big rocket- that's almost every 60s knock off spy film as it is, let alone all the Bond films which do it: it's not a story which people haven't seen at this point. Gambling a man to death though- that is a bit fresher to an audience.
  • Posts: 1,837
    Yeah, who wants to see a story about a nut job who wants to blow up London with a rocket. We need more visually exciting stories about nano-bots and stolen computer chips with the names of every MI6 agent in the world. It's not as if computer technology hijacked or run amuck hasn't already been done to death. And please, let's have a few more villains with pock-marked faces.

    I'll take a Fleming story any day over most of the nonsense passed off as an adaptation of his work.
  • edited September 10 Posts: 1,179
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Yeah, who wants to see a story about a nut job who wants to blow up London with a rocket. We need more visually exciting stories about nano-bots and stolen computer chips with the names of every MI6 agent in the world. It's not as if computer technology hijacked or run amuck hasn't already been done to death. And please, let's have a few more villains with pock-marked faces.

    I'll take a Fleming story any day over most of the nonsense passed off as an adaptation of his work.

    We need James Bond against cookies.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited September 10 Posts: 1,921
    I think almost every story has been told before on page and screen, but what makes the same stories fresh is how different it looks in the hands of a novelist or filmmaker. Bond 26 would definitely remind us of an old Bond film or previous Bond actor or Bond novel. But for the most part, it would be fresh.
  • Posts: 3,824
    Yeah, Bond’s a formulaic series, and it’s about making those ideas feel fresh in some way. Actually I think the nanobots from NTTD is a great example. Nanobots aren’t new in films - not widely used by any means but they’re there in Bond (Everything or Nothing used them). In NTTD they aren’t bog standard weapons used to eat away at buildings though, but virus/poison spreading carriers. That’s actually a pretty unique spin on that. As I said even Fleming used cliches from his own time but put his unique spin on them (in this case the amnesia subplot after Bond gets hit on the head. It’s even there in Bond using his cigarette case to stop Grant’s bullet in FRWL). I actually agree that it’d be interesting if the next villain didn’t have a pock marked face though (perhaps someone kinda good looking like book Grant or Largo could work).

    But a faithful adaptation of MR is something else entirely. Even if they did use it for inspiration for Bond 26 it won’t be the exact same story at all.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,747
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, Bond’s a formulaic series, and it’s about making those ideas feel fresh in some way. Actually I think the nanobots from NTTD is a great example. Nanobots aren’t new in films - not widely used by any means but they’re there in Bond (Everything or Nothing used them). In NTTD they aren’t bog standard weapons used to eat away at buildings though, but virus/poison spreading carriers. That’s actually a pretty unique spin on that. As I said even Fleming used cliches from his own time but put his unique spin on them (in this case the amnesia subplot after Bond gets hit on the head. It’s even there in Bond using his cigarette case to stop Grant’s bullet in FRWL). I actually agree that it’d be interesting if the next villain didn’t have a pock marked face though (perhaps someone kinda good looking like book Grant or Largo could work).

    But a faithful adaptation of MR is something else entirely. Even if they did use it for inspiration for Bond 26 it won’t be the exact same story at all.

    Blofeld also used viruses in OHMSS, I think that's the first Bond film to tackle biological warfare.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 887
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, Bond’s a formulaic series, and it’s about making those ideas feel fresh in some way. Actually I think the nanobots from NTTD is a great example. Nanobots aren’t new in films - not widely used by any means but they’re there in Bond (Everything or Nothing used them). In NTTD they aren’t bog standard weapons used to eat away at buildings though, but virus/poison spreading carriers. That’s actually a pretty unique spin on that. As I said even Fleming used cliches from his own time but put his unique spin on them (in this case the amnesia subplot after Bond gets hit on the head. It’s even there in Bond using his cigarette case to stop Grant’s bullet in FRWL). I actually agree that it’d be interesting if the next villain didn’t have a pock marked face though (perhaps someone kinda good looking like book Grant or Largo could work).

    But a faithful adaptation of MR is something else entirely. Even if they did use it for inspiration for Bond 26 it won’t be the exact same story at all.

    It's really not. Just off the top of my head the Jessica Alba-starring Dark Angel TV series used programmable nanobot viruses twenty years ago. All these things have been done before.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Yeah, who wants to see a story about a nut job who wants to blow up London with a rocket. We need more visually exciting stories about nano-bots and stolen computer chips with the names of every MI6 agent in the world. It's not as if computer technology hijacked or run amuck hasn't already been done to death. And please, let's have a few more villains with pock-marked faces.

    I'll take a Fleming story any day over most of the nonsense passed off as an adaptation of his work.

    We're saying that a faithful adaptation of Moonraker, nothing else, would be a bit uninteresting to a modern audience who have seen it all before. As 007HallY says, the nanobots in NTTD haven't been seen before in Bond, a targeted virus bioweapon has happened a lot less than a baddie with a big rocket. It's a fair point that the hacking in SF wasn't the most original theme, but really that was just something to hang the revenge plot from. I'm sure you didn't enjoy them, this site is full of people who don't enjoy the Bond films but inexplicably want more made immediately, but we're talking about the originality and freshness of the thing, and great and classic book though Moonraker is, a very faithful adaptation of it wouldn't make for a particularly gripping blockbuster because it's all a little bit passé 70 years on- it's not the complex story. Even folks who've seen Die Another Day would wonder why they're doing the same plot beats again.
    You're right about the scars, we need to leaved scarred villains behind now.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, Bond’s a formulaic series, and it’s about making those ideas feel fresh in some way. Actually I think the nanobots from NTTD is a great example. Nanobots aren’t new in films - not widely used by any means but they’re there in Bond (Everything or Nothing used them). In NTTD they aren’t bog standard weapons used to eat away at buildings though, but virus/poison spreading carriers. That’s actually a pretty unique spin on that. As I said even Fleming used cliches from his own time but put his unique spin on them (in this case the amnesia subplot after Bond gets hit on the head. It’s even there in Bond using his cigarette case to stop Grant’s bullet in FRWL). I actually agree that it’d be interesting if the next villain didn’t have a pock marked face though (perhaps someone kinda good looking like book Grant or Largo could work).

    But a faithful adaptation of MR is something else entirely. Even if they did use it for inspiration for Bond 26 it won’t be the exact same story at all.

    Blofeld also used viruses in OHMSS, I think that's the first Bond film to tackle biological warfare.

    It's a bit weird it's mentioned but never shown. At least in Moonraker (the movie) we got to see the poison kill those scientists. I feel like it's better to establish these threats by showing them to us.
  • One thing that Moonraker perhaps touches on that makes is ripe for an adaptation is the fact that Bond mostly suspects Krebs for a lot of the book, and not Drax. I don't think the Drax reveal is particularly dramatic anyway. A lot of the book is figuring out where Drax comes into the scheme and even the extent of the scheme.

    Anyway, speaking of Alex Rider novels, Ark Angel riffs Moonraker by focusing on the Krebs thing. The story makes it seem like a terrorist attack is going to come and then we see that the terrorists and "Drax" (in this case a Russian called Drevin) are the same people. I posted a story idea where perhaps the dead German man was a part of a terrorist organisation and the first part angles on that analysis rather than on Drax himself.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    One thing that Moonraker perhaps touches on that makes is ripe for an adaptation is the fact that Bond mostly suspects Krebs for a lot of the book, and not Drax. I don't think the Drax reveal is particularly dramatic anyway. A lot of the book is figuring out where Drax comes into the scheme and even the extent of the scheme.

    It would make a nice change for the baddie in an apparently benign organisation not to be its CEO, but a villainous second in command or something, with Bond suspecting the boss before discovering it wasn't his fault at all!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,170
    mtm wrote: »
    Horowitz did a great job with updating the Moonraker concept with his Alex Rider novel Skeleton Key - switching the setting to Cuba and having the CIA be involved (as well as shifting the villain from a secret Nazi to a vengeful former Soviet who was seeking retribution for his child who was killed in Afghanistan) just to add additional flavour to what is ultimately a fairly straightforward story.

    Oh right, I thought the first Alex Rider (Stormbreaker?) was enough of a Moonraker ripoff in itself! :D

    Indeed, he was very open about his influences (and I think even the dogs on the street knew he loved Bond from early on in his career). I think what I'd take from it is that the old novels can certainly be used as a spring point but as noted above by yourself and others, we probably need to abandon the idea of a fully faithful adaptation because a lot of the things in the books are old hat at this point.

    It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do something exciting with the old reliables - your nuclear weapons, your missiles - etc. Both Ghost Protocol and Fallout did very thrilling stuff with those tropes.

    To go back to the Moonraker thing, I'd say there's a case to be made that the strongest, most adaptable aspect from it is the relationship between Gala and Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    Yes it's interesting that they decided not to use Gala Brand for DAD; almost like they'd decided to save her for later.

    I could imagine Gala being the next important Bond woman- almost like Ilsa in the Mission Impossible films: a capable, able Special Branch or DI officer or something like that who crosses paths with Bond, forms a growing attachment, but then comes and goes from his life, across several films perhaps.
    Rather than a doomed romance where someone has to die, it might be quite fun for Bond to have a will-they won't-they connection with a woman which builds a bit more than the usual instant love affair.
  • Posts: 3,824
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, Bond’s a formulaic series, and it’s about making those ideas feel fresh in some way. Actually I think the nanobots from NTTD is a great example. Nanobots aren’t new in films - not widely used by any means but they’re there in Bond (Everything or Nothing used them). In NTTD they aren’t bog standard weapons used to eat away at buildings though, but virus/poison spreading carriers. That’s actually a pretty unique spin on that. As I said even Fleming used cliches from his own time but put his unique spin on them (in this case the amnesia subplot after Bond gets hit on the head. It’s even there in Bond using his cigarette case to stop Grant’s bullet in FRWL). I actually agree that it’d be interesting if the next villain didn’t have a pock marked face though (perhaps someone kinda good looking like book Grant or Largo could work).

    But a faithful adaptation of MR is something else entirely. Even if they did use it for inspiration for Bond 26 it won’t be the exact same story at all.

    It's really not. Just off the top of my head the Jessica Alba-starring Dark Angel TV series used programmable nanobot viruses twenty years ago. All these things have been done before.

    Never heard of this show. But ultimately no ideas are truly original/new. Fresh, yes. But not wholly new. The nanobots from NTTD aren't like anything I've seen before anyway. I'm sure it'll be distinct even from that show in some way.
  • Posts: 3,254
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Yeah, who wants to see a story about a nut job who wants to blow up London with a rocket.

    I do.

    I don't care if things have been done before. That ticking clock plot device in the circus in OP worked great and was damn nailbiting when I first saw it, even though it's been done in TSWLM, GF and tons of other movies. They just need to put a new creative spin on it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    What is the creative spin you want to see on it? Or are you saying you'd like to see it done in any way? Even a boring way. Which would suggest it's an inherently unique and attention-grabbing concept by itself, which I'd disagree with.

    Because, sure, if it can be filmed in as heart-poundingly an exciting way as Fallout then I'm hardly to going to say I don't want to see it. But the conversation is about a faithful MR adaptation, not putting a 'new creative spin' on it, and the book MR ain't Fallout.
    And if we're open to the films putting big, creatively new spins on these stories, then we already have DAD.

    Quite where the line between what's acceptable as a Fleming adaptation and what isn't doesn't seem to be based upon how faithful it actually is, but just whether it's any good. I don't think sticking to a Fleming book automatically makes a good film, because sometimes they've done it and it's been great and sometimes they haven't and it's not been the best.
  • Posts: 3,254
    Like I said when responding to that very specific question... I wouldn't mind a Bond movie that has a villain who wants to blow up London with Bond trying to stop him. This can be the premise of the third act of the movie, the climax or the entire plot.
  • edited September 10 Posts: 3,824
    mtm wrote: »
    Quite where the line between what's acceptable as a Fleming adaptation and what isn't doesn't seem to be based upon how faithful it actually is, but just whether it's any good. I don't think sticking to a Fleming book automatically makes a good film, because sometimes they've done it and it's been great and sometimes they haven't and it's not been the best.

    Yeah, GF isn't a great film just because it sticks to Fleming's novel. Actually you can argue it's a great film because it deviates from the material and adapts the story successfully. Same for FRWL. That's not to say there's anything wrong with the books. Just that what makes a great film isn't always what makes a great book.

    MR is even trickier to adapt. I think they'd have to try very hard to make the climax work (again, it amounts to Bond and Gala in a bunker, hiding in a vent/getting burned slightly, and then fiddling with a computer).
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Like I said when responding to that very specific question... I wouldn't mind a Bond movie that has a villain who wants to blow up London with Bond trying to stop him. This can be the premise of the third act of the movie, the climax or the entire plot.

    Nothing wrong with ticking clocks or a villain wanting to destroy the world. As you said, just have to do something fresh with it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 10 Posts: 16,099
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Like I said when responding to that very specific question... I wouldn't mind a Bond movie that has a villain who wants to blow up London with Bond trying to stop him. This can be the premise of the third act of the movie, the climax or the entire plot.

    Which is great, but kind of missing what the conversation is about. As I said in my specific reply to your post: I'm happy to see those things too, but not as presented in the novel we're talking about. With a new and creative spin, as you said; and I agree entirely.
  • edited September 10 Posts: 1,179
    It needs more action and more chicks, as always.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 10 Posts: 3,112
    mtm wrote: »
    if we're open to the films putting big, creatively new spins on these stories, then we already have DAD.
    Even to the extent that Rosamund Pike said that Miranda Frost was called 'Gala Brand' in the script!

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,179
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes it's interesting that they decided not to use Gala Brand for DAD; almost like they'd decided to save her for later.

    I could imagine Gala being the next important Bond woman- almost like Ilsa in the Mission Impossible films: a capable, able Special Branch or DI officer or something like that who crosses paths with Bond, forms a growing attachment, but then comes and goes from his life, across several films perhaps.
    Rather than a doomed romance where someone has to die, it might be quite fun for Bond to have a will-they won't-they connection with a woman which builds a bit more than the usual instant love affair.

    +1. It would be cool to see Gala in a couple of films.

    I think there are parts of MR that would still be interesting to see on film: the blowtorch scene, for example. If they want to go for a grittier Bond a la CR, I can see those scenes happening. There's something exciting about *not* having a big set piece but yet bringing Fleming to the screen. I'm sure they could embellish it.
  • Posts: 1,837
    On the one hand here we praise the brilliance of screen writers who can conjure up all sorts of imaginative stories, but trying to tell the story of a supposedly patriotic billionaire who builds a rocket to be used on his own country, sorry, nothing there. Boring! It's not as if a real life multi-billionaire owns his own spaceship company.

    No one is saying a 100% faithful adaptation, but a lot better job could have been done with some of the titles that exist in name only.
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