Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 3,276
    peter wrote: »
    A flawed character is always more interesting, I think.
    I agree. One of the reason I think 'First Blood' is one of the best movies that came out of the 80's isn't because of the action, but because it's one - if not the best movie - about PTSD.
    peter wrote: »
    If Bond just zipped in and out of adventures, always being right, the films would lack tension and suspense and would quickly lose appeal.
    That I don't agree with. There just have to be something else. Take MR for example (or most of the classic Bond movies). Bond doesn't change much and is exactly like you describe. But those Ken Adam sets, the Barry score, the action, the cinematography and Lonsdale doing his lines, make up for it. For me Bond was never the most exciting character, because I knew exactly what I could expect from him. It was the villains, henchmen and ladies that took center stage in terms of new character appeal.
    peter wrote: »
    Never make the story easy or convient for the hero. Make them suffer and when it looks like all the chips are stacked against them, that's when they deliver and come out on top.
    Yes, that is what you learn at drama or screenwriting school. Every protagonist has to be John McClane. But even though it can be clichéish that model usually always works.
    peter wrote: »
    the Pushkin scene in The Living Daylights
    His tactics may be uncomfortable. They may skirt a fine line, but they're still inside the border of fair play for a hero.
    Probably one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Slick and intense. And it is touching that border you mention that I find especially interesting. Like when Bond deals with Dr.Dent in DN or Kaufmann in TND.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @Daltonforyou

    When I’m teasing someone, I always leave an lol. So I do follow my own advice.

    Last night I saw you responded with an exclamation point to my little observation. So, I facetiously was asking what was in the water yesterday cuz, apart from your reply, people were getting testy about anything, it seemed.

    I, and others, found the “could you…” turn around line humorous. Ii saw the scene as being written with humour.

    I said as much; that I think this line was a joke.

    You said it wasn’t a joke (!), and I disagree. It wasn’t meant to be taken as Bond being serious. He could care less if Paloma watched him undress (Christ, he even said it with a wry smile).

    If you disagree and thought Bond wasn’t making a joke, so be it, Dalton.

    And I don’t care if Bond licked his fingers. He was miles and years away from his life in the service. He was living off the grid in Jamaica. I liked seeing the human Bond in his habitat of choice. Licking his fingers after wolfing down street-meat. It doesn’t bother me. I loved it.

    You dislike it. You have criticisms. Fine, I ain’t trying to change your mind.

    I simply made an observation that you didn’t like: that the scene with Paloma was humorous and his line of asking her to turn around was a joke. You don’t agree and that’s that, isn’t it?

  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 5 Posts: 9,509
    @Zekidk don't you think that even in Moonraker, Bond isn’t perfect. He makes choices that get others killed (Corrine). They may not have gone deeply into the repercussions of Bond’s actions, but even in Moonraker he isn’t a perfect Superman. He makes mistakes and gets caught by the baddies more than once.

    But I agree with you that there’s more to a film than the lead protagonist’s flaws (the big baddie is huge, and is the catalyst to the story, and the obstacle-creator for our hero).

    Like you I’m a big fan of the Pushkin scene, and, yes, it bumps up against that line. Wonderfully crafted scene and Dalton is at his best.

    EDIT: EXCUSE DOUBLE POST.
  • Posts: 3,276
    @peter
    I don't necessarily consider making some bad decisions a character flaw unless it has become a trademark for the character. For me Bond was pretty much Bond, the same kind of larger-than-life character, up until the reboot in 2006. But I do welcome those moments of surprise (the scenes I mentioned, and there are several others) that make me reevaluate him, although I never asked for it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @peter
    I don't necessarily consider making some bad decisions a character flaw unless it has become a trademark for the character. For me Bond was pretty much Bond, the same kind of larger-than-life character, up until the reboot in 2006. But I do welcome those moments of surprise (the scenes I mentioned, and there are several others) that make me reevaluate him, although I never asked for it.

    I hear you, @Zekidk , although I do think that even as far back as Lazenby they started to incrementally grow and stretch the character of Bond to be a little more flawed, not quite as superhuman as the very cool and almost unflappable Connery era.

    But I can see how by 2006, they really leaned into exploring the various traits of the man, including pinpointing and calling out his flaws (namely his arrogance that is so big, it couldn’t fit in the same elevator as Ms. Lynd).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    The casting of CR was so important, and they got it so right.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    The casting of CR was so important, and they got it so right.

    💯
  • Posts: 1,985
    Among the things I liked about Bond when the series first appeared was the humor. I loved Connery's droll delivery in DN, "They were on their way to a funeral." As the series progressed, the humor became more pronounced. In terms of delivery, my preference has always been Connery. His delivery has always worked better for me than Moore's and the writing seemed sharper. For me the humor in Connery's films was witty, whereas the humor in the Moore films often seemed juvenile. For example, when Tee Hee fumbles the watch in LALD, Bond says, "Butterhook!" That line falls with a thud. Someone else may see it differently.

    Humor can be timeless, but also trapped in time. I can still watch a production of Moliere's Tartuffe and laugh out loud. Whether produced as it would have been in 1664 or set in 2024, without changing a line, the play is still funny.

    I am a big fan of Airplane and so much of it works well today, but some of what's going on in that film escapes audiences today. Some of us know who the guy in the cab is and why the wait is funny. Once explained, can the uninformed appreciate the humor?

    I like absurdist humor, clever and witty, the pratfall, etc. But humor is subjective. Jerry Lewis had his fans, as did Sam Kinison, and Gilbert Gottfried, three comedians I would not have watched if given a free ticket. Scream humor eludes me. But Steven Wright, I find funny. Some of the standup I've seen on Netflix works well.

    I didn't find much amusement in the Craig series. But then the entire arc was rather dark and didn't lend itself to amusement. Felix's 'gut feeling' of impending death didn't land well. But there were some good moments in CR.

    As Steve Martin has said, "Comedy is serious business." I look forward to a new Bond who's not as psychologically burdened as Craig's Bond. Not looking for the kind of vulgar juvenile humor that would make schoolboys giggle. My favorite kind of humor is that which doesn't immediately land. It's the type of thing that takes a second or two to think about and then it hits you. That may be too much for those who need cheap and easy instant gratification.

    And of course there's the clever editing transition from one scene to another. But that's another discussion.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited October 5 Posts: 4,629
    After watching Joker: Folie a Deux, Todd Philips has said that this is why Joker 1 & 2 were made with a bit of satire. He says he can't make comedies anymore because people are offended by them. So, humor is like cartoons, is often of it's time. So, a lot of Bond material can truly be of it's time, because Bond is (usually) as modern of a character as you get. For better or worse.

    While asking where does Bond go after Craig, hopefully it's NOT with CINEMATIC spinoffs. Keep Bond spinoffs in the literary world. Joker 2 proves this. While I liked it more than most apparently people did, there is a reason it's not getting good reviews/box office. WB and DC should have done a different villain, as this is almost too unique for a mainstream audience. See my full review on the Last Movie You Watched thread. However, my point is that adult Bond should remain EON's main focus for the time being. Even IFP needs some reminders of that if we don't get an adult Bond novel soon. However, I'm still ok with Bond literary spinoffs. Lastly, I can see why fans don't want spinoffs of certain characters. While I hope that Blofeld gets a modern day spinoff novel, I won't debate fans on why my opinions are right. There's a fair reason for why certain characters (from Batman, Bond and various other fictional characters) should just be supporting characters.
  • Posts: 1,985
    There was a time when Blofeld was an interesting character. SP & NTTD ended that.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There was a time when Blofeld was an interesting character. SP & NTTD ended that.

    Nah, YOLT and DAF did that long before SP came along.

    The best Blofeld was the faceless entity in FRWL, but especially TB.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 5 Posts: 3,152
    I wonder if the 'Brofeld' malarkey has lessened the interest in seeing more of Blofeld in the next guy's run or if people actually want a new take on Blofeld in order to push the foster-brother version down the memory hole to some extent? I can see the appeal of both approaches, tbh!
  • peter wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There was a time when Blofeld was an interesting character. SP & NTTD ended that.

    Nah, YOLT and DAF did that long before SP came along.

    The best Blofeld was the faceless entity in FRWL, but especially TB.

    Completely agreed.

    Though I’d say that Telly Savalas is really the only version that delivers on the promise of those earlier films, even if my biggest gripe with him is that he’s perhaps a bit too “American” for the part.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There was a time when Blofeld was an interesting character. SP & NTTD ended that.

    Nah, YOLT and DAF did that long before SP came along.

    The best Blofeld was the faceless entity in FRWL, but especially TB.

    Completely agreed.

    Though I’d say that Telly Savalas is really the only version that delivers on the promise of those earlier films, even if my biggest gripe with him is that he’s perhaps a bit too “American” for the part.

    Agreed. I love Telly. But he did skew too American.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I think Telly's terrific, I don't mind his being American at all. The one fault I'd have with his Blofeld was that he was perhaps a little too unhinged: obsessed with being a Count and a weird, really quite nuts plan about foot & mouth and pretty girls spreading poison? Poison we never even see work, maybe it's made up. It's a bit kind of sad in a way- like the Blofeld who used to have an empire which could consult on the Great Train Robbery, kidnap space rockets and bring down Vulcans is now stuck on top of his mountain with a few guys in orange and a mad maiden aunt. He's the creepiest Blofeld but he's sort of at rock bottom and basically going through some sort of nervous breakdown.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I even like Gray's Blofeld. I find him incredibly underrated.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Since we’re on the topic of Blofeld…

    OHMSS > TB > FRWL > YOLT > NTTD > SP > DAF > FYEO
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    An interesting take on Telly @mtm… never looked at him that way, but I like what you’re seeing.

    @FoxRox , 😂 thanks for including FYEO Blofeld— I forgot about him!!

    @DarthDimi — you’re a unique man with unique tastes and that’s why we appreciate you!!
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Glad to see some Telly Savalas Blofeld fans! Ironically @peter @mtm @DarthDimi @FoxRox Richard Maibaum said that Telly’s Blofeld should have had a European accent. Also it’s great to see that Blofeld can have a future in the franchise. I see a proper introduction to him next time. Book, movie or game.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @peter
    We aim to please. ;-)

    Seriously, though, I like the fire burning inside Gray. When his Blofeld gets angry, he's giving it his all. "Up! Not down!", he says with a fury rarely seen outside a Greek tragedy.

    Let's face it, the water we're swimming here is far from clean. The best Blofelds, in my opinion, can be "seen" in FRWL and TB. When the mystery curtains were dropped next, and Count Orlok's cousin turned out to be Blofeld, I was slightly disappointed. In turn, Telly was excellent because he played the role with a cool confidence that was hard to ignore. Poor Charles Gray, however, a really good actor as well, was given the kind of material that would have sent my bladder into a frenzy. Blofeld stroking his pussy while dressed up like every man's scariest nightmare of a rich and dominant mother-in-law, is an image that inevitably has come up a gazillion times when people converse with their psychologist. Dummy Blofeld from FYEO was a wheelchair bound crazy person whose last words, before being dropped into a large industrial chimney, were "Mister Boooooo---". And Waltz went "cuckoo!", leaving a first impression that no grownup ever could hope for.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Telly's terrific, I don't mind his being American at all. The one fault I'd have with his Blofeld was that he was perhaps a little too unhinged: obsessed with being a Count and a weird, really quite nuts plan about foot & mouth and pretty girls spreading poison? Poison we never even see work, maybe it's made up. It's a bit kind of sad in a way- like the Blofeld who used to have an empire which could consult on the Great Train Robbery, kidnap space rockets and bring down Vulcans is now stuck on top of his mountain with a few guys in orange and a mad maiden aunt. He's the creepiest Blofeld but he's sort of at rock bottom and basically going through some sort of nervous breakdown.

    That’s an interesting take. To me that sounds like the Blofeld in Fleming’s YOLT, which is in a way quite fitting.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    I do want to wish Blofeld performer Donald Pleasence a happy birthday today. Thanks for the great performances, you are missed. As for who could play Blofeld in the future, I did think Peter Sarsgaard at one point. I do want a more physically active Blofeld again.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I went to the same school as Donald Pleasance. I may have mentioned that 413 times before...cough...
  • I could go without seeing Blofeld on screen again if I were being honest. I think so much has been made about the character and the impact that he’s had on Bond’s life (both in the novels and the films) yet despite all that I don’t find him to the the ultimate Bond baddie. I’d probably say that’s Goldfinger.
  • Posts: 1,985
    For me it's always about who owns the role. Who takes it and does something memorable with it. I like the off screen voices, but they are not characters in the usual sense. The FYEO mannequin is a muppet out of something like Austin Powers or Johnny English. What a sad decision by EON to allow that. The worst and least convincing of the so called serious Blofelds is CG. Completely miscast and unbelievable. DP? Overwrought, humorless, with almost no personality. Waltz, who arguably should have been the best Blofeld, is simply not interesting. And though the absolutely stupid writing decision wasn't his doing as an actor, it adds nothing to the character. For me, the best Blofeld is the one who is probably the most obviously miscast. TS. He is big and imposing. Visually he seems threatening. A fun performance, and likable in an odd sort of way. After the debacle of SP and NTTD, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Blofeld is Bond's father. (Of course I am joking.) A great Bond film is when all the casting pieces fit. But when one actor is obviously a bad fit, it can take you right out of the film. I want to focus on the film, not be distracted by a bad casting choice. When we see ESB again, will he or should he be scarred? And should Irma appear with him?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    CrabKey wrote: »
    For me it's always about who owns the role. Who takes it and does something memorable with it. I like the off screen voices, but they are not characters in the usual sense. The FYEO mannequin is a muppet out of something like Austin Powers or Johnny English. What a sad decision by EON to allow that. The worst and least convincing of the so called serious Blofelds is CG. Completely miscast and unbelievable. DP? Overwrought, humorless, with almost no personality. Waltz, who arguably should have been the best Blofeld, is simply not interesting. And though the absolutely stupid writing decision wasn't his doing as an actor, it adds nothing to the character. For me, the best Blofeld is the one who is probably the most obviously miscast. TS. He is big and imposing. Visually he seems threatening. A fun performance, and likable in an odd sort of way. After the debacle of SP and NTTD, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Blofeld is Bond's father. (Of course I am joking.) A great Bond film is when all the casting pieces fit. But when one actor is obviously a bad fit, it can take you right out of the film. I want to focus on the film, not be distracted by a bad casting choice. When we see ESB again, will he or should he be scarred? And should Irma appear with him?

    I’d like to see him with his YOLT gold tooth and yes Irma Bunt should appear with him. Just for the sake of something different for the modern day version.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Blofeld is part of the SPECTRE trilogy and story arc that's intended to recharge and reestablish Bond later in his career for more missions. As Casino Royale did to start him off.

    That likely won't be valuable for some time. Or even during the next Bond actor's tenure.

    Scar is welcome. Better if we know the source event, even if it's not shown on screen. Irma Bunt would be a requirement I'm thinking.

  • edited October 6 Posts: 4,139
    Must admit, I’ve grown to like Pleasance’s Blofeld on my viewing of YOLT in the last year or so. He has this slight undercurrent of madness which comes through in his performance, becoming increasingly agitated with the situation around him. While the faceless Blofeld is much more imposing (and a wonderful creative decision) I think Blofeld needs that sense of madness to make him work.
  • Posts: 1,985
    I don't see Blofeld as mad in the conventional sense. For me the madness is the quest for power like we see in many multi-billionaires. Having everything never seems to be enough. Next it has to be power and influence. I like villains who are villains by nature. They know they are bad guys and are not apologetic. I don't even need a backstory explaining their villainy.
  • Posts: 3,276
    Irma Bunt would be a requirement I'm thinking.
    She was suppose to be in SP, but was written out in the final revised draft.
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