Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,859
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Today I had an interesting conversation with my Gen Z students. I asked what characteristics define their generation. "We don't care about anything." I pressed a little more, but nothing. Their interest in DC and Marvel films is declining: too many and too repetitious. Bond? Some knew of him and others didn't. Couldn't remember if they'd seen a Bond film. What might get them into the theater? A hot, young Bond. According to one, if they make the film and it's good, it'll probably be successful.

    Some knew of him and others didn't. This is what I encounter as well. Having said that, how could ANYONE not know who James Bond is?!?!?!?!!?!?!!?
  • Posts: 4,139
    I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who hasn’t heard of James Bond. Quite a few who haven’t watched the films, and a few who don’t like them. But it’s a bit like not knowing who Dracula or Sherlock Holmes is. It might be a very vague bit of pop culture for certain people, perhaps not often thought about or remembered in the moment, but it’s there somewhere.

    Then again I can’t speak for everyone.
  • Posts: 1,985
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who hasn’t heard of James Bond. Quite a few who haven’t watched the films, and a few who don’t like them. But it’s a bit like not knowing who Dracula or Sherlock Holmes is. It might be a very vague bit of pop culture for certain people, perhaps not often thought about or remembered in the moment, but it’s there somewhere.

    Then again I can’t speak for everyone.

    Several weeks earlier another student said he didn't know who The Beatles were. That sort of thing doesn't bother me because as a 16 year old I wouldn't have known much about the icons of my parents generation.

    For those of us who grew up in the 60s, it was a staggering decade. And I get why younger generations say, "Shut up. Get over it. Move on." That's fine. Which icons and events influenced those later generations? For me the 60s was the most impactful decade of my life. What defines an X or Millennial? What decade has been most impactful in their lives?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The thing that will always make 60s Bond special was that at the time it was all brand new. It broke a lot of rules while at the same time set new ones. But like any franchise, it had become an institution over time so it’s no longer perceived to be this “new” ground breaking thing, because it can’t be.

    The closest the Craig era came to being a trendsetter was with SKYFALL. The John Wick movies owe their existence to visual aesthetics that Roger Deakins established.

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  • edited October 18 Posts: 1,340
    Oh, "the Chuck Norris scene"





    Yes, I think Skyfall is a Proto-John Wick, but who knows? Both of them may be copying third parties.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I would have thought having silhouettes fighting against a backdrop was really Deakins giving a nod to the well known James Bond title sequences by making it an actual set piece within the film. It played so well that the John Wick filmmakers ran with it, the rest is history.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 19 Posts: 420
    Oh, "the Chuck Norris scene"


    Exactly, or even Wesley Snipes in "The Art Of War" a tepid B movie which came out in 2000, long before Skyfall

    Yes, I think Skyfall is a Proto-John Wick, but who knows? Both of them may be copying third parties.

    True dat, Chuck (or the Director) may have got the idea from some Hong Kong or Japanese martial arts movie.

    I don't really see any connection between James Bond and John Wick myself.

    To me the opening sequence of the film "JCVD" in 2008 was the moment that sign-posted the road back from the excesses of the Bourne franchise era of quick cutting /shaky cam in action movies. (A trend Bond was perfectly happy to imitate in "Quantum of Solace".)

    But, as you say, who knows, that's just from my personal experience, and there are an awful lot of movies I haven't seen, which may have been the origin of artistic concepts I attribute to movies I have seen
    I would have thought having silhouettes fighting against a backdrop was really Deakins giving a nod to the well known James Bond title sequences by making it an actual set piece within the film. It played so well that the John Wick filmmakers ran with it, the rest is history.

    Yes, I agree, that seems much more likely
  • Posts: 1,340
    There may be a trend in recent years to make movies look prettier. 20 years ago no one cared about movie photography. It was too "arty"
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    Cinematography has always been important, but up until big flatscreen TVs became predominant Joe Public didn’t really notice. Now that we’ve got very big, very expensive TVs that use things like Dolby Vision as selling points, everyone is a bit more aware of the picture.
  • edited October 19 Posts: 4,139
    I can see the similarities between SF and John Wick, and the latter may well have been influenced by Bond. But it’s also worth saying movies always take things from other movies. It’s the way you create something. It’s a bit like Silva’s plan to get captured only to escape - a lot of people would say it was first done in The Dark Knight with Joker (it was definitely a plot trope that showed up in movies for a few years afterwards - Star Trek, Avengers, SF etc). I always say it’s basically a riff on Hannibal Lecter’s escape from Silence of the Lambs (there’s even interview scenes between the villains and the heroes in all of them where the villain, usually in a glass prison, gets the upper hand psychologically).
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    Skyfall wasn't a trend-setter. If anything, it was one of the biggest examples of trend-chasing in the franchise, along with Moonraker and QOS. People were calling it The Dark Bond due to how derivative it was of Nolan's Batman movies.

    The only way the Bond series can set the trends is if B26 does its own thing without caring what other franchises are doing. A return to the fun, colorful style of the 60s movies would be the complete opposite of what's popular at the moment, but I don't know if the producers have the guts to do that.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Skyfall wasn't a trend-setter. If anything, it was one of the biggest examples of trend-chasing in the franchise, along with Moonraker and QOS. People were calling it The Dark Bond due to how derivative it was of Nolan's Batman movies.

    The only way the Bond series can set the trends is if B26 does its own thing without caring what other franchises are doing. A return to the fun, colorful style of the 60s movies would be the complete opposite of what's popular at the moment, but I don't know if the producers have the guts to do that.

    It would be interesting if Eon truly took their inspiration from DN for Bond 26. A straightforward, one-setting film set in Jamaica, or some equivalent (Bermuda?).

    I'm sure it was refreshing for '60s audiences that they basically opened the film with casual, consensual sex between Bond and Trench. In many ways, Trench was more thought-out as a character and Bond's equal than so many of the women who followed her.

    Now there would be things they would have to jettison--"fetch my shoes," the yellowface in particular.

    But it's an idea at that.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 19 Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Skyfall wasn't a trend-setter. If anything, it was one of the biggest examples of trend-chasing in the franchise, along with Moonraker and QOS. People were calling it The Dark Bond due to how derivative it was of Nolan's Batman movies.

    The only way the Bond series can set the trends is if B26 does its own thing without caring what other franchises are doing. A return to the fun, colorful style of the 60s movies would be the complete opposite of what's popular at the moment, but I don't know if the producers have the guts to do that.

    It would be interesting if Eon truly took their inspiration from DN for Bond 26. A straightforward, one-setting film set in Jamaica, or some equivalent (Bermuda?).

    I'm sure it was refreshing for '60s audiences that they basically opened the film with casual, consensual sex between Bond and Trench. In many ways, Trench was more thought-out as a character and Bond's equal than so many of the women who followed her.

    Now there would be things they would have to jettison--"fetch my shoes," the yellowface in particular.

    But it's an idea at that.

    I keep coming back to some kind of show down with a Scaramanga -type (if not Francisco himself).

    @mtm and some of his ideas on this was like a brainworm (and not the type that eats portions of a Kennedy brain (RFK jr reference, not anything more macabre than that)), and I can’t shake it.

    A talented, young James Bond 007 has twice now, jeopardized missions, when Francisco rears his ugly head. Perhaps Mi6 get information that this mysterious, yet famous assassin (famous by reputation), has been hired to take out an important player on the world stage (perhaps this woman, or man, is in charge of a peace treaty, and the organization that hired Scaramanga doesn’t want the treaty to be passed).

    Bond is basically sent on a suicide mission against a man considered more dangerous than he is.

    We’d have a very active character, who’d also be forced to use investigative skills to track down Scaramanga, which would lead to a deadly climax (with the ticking time bomb playing in the background (the target of the assassination and pushing the peace treaty forward)).

    I want to see the new man tested, especially against a foe like Scaramanga…

    Spit balling, and nothing more.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 19 Posts: 8,183
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Skyfall wasn't a trend-setter. If anything, it was one of the biggest examples of trend-chasing in the franchise, along with Moonraker and QOS. People were calling it The Dark Bond due to how derivative it was of Nolan's Batman movies.

    The only way the Bond series can set the trends is if B26 does its own thing without caring what other franchises are doing. A return to the fun, colorful style of the 60s movies would be the complete opposite of what's popular at the moment, but I don't know if the producers have the guts to do that.

    Why is being a tend setter important? It wasn’t in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s. Bond did just fine in those decades.

    And how would making the movies like it’s the 60s again make it a “trend setter”?
  • edited October 19 Posts: 4,139
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Skyfall wasn't a trend-setter. If anything, it was one of the biggest examples of trend-chasing in the franchise, along with Moonraker and QOS. People were calling it The Dark Bond due to how derivative it was of Nolan's Batman movies.

    The only way the Bond series can set the trends is if B26 does its own thing without caring what other franchises are doing. A return to the fun, colorful style of the 60s movies would be the complete opposite of what's popular at the moment, but I don't know if the producers have the guts to do that.

    Why is being a tend setter important? It was in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s. Bond did just fine in those decades.

    And how would making the movies like it’s the 60s again make it a “trend setter”?

    I think it’s a thankless task trying to point out which ‘trends’ certain Bond films use. They all have examples of that, even the 60s films, and it doesn’t mean anything about the quality of the actual film. With SF and TDK I’d say while they have similarities they’re very different films (again, plenty of films in the years after TDK had similar plot points, and I’d argue there’s nothing inherently unique that hadn’t been done before in some form in TDK anyway. That’s not a criticism incidentally).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    True, even Terence Young freely admitted he was stealing from Hitchcock.
  • Posts: 561
    I am always amused by the "Skyfall stole from The Dark Knight" takes. The big one, as had been said earlier in the thread, is that TDK didn't come up with these tropes either. The other one is Nolan cribbed a lot of things from Bond in particular for his Batman films!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    BMB007 wrote: »
    I am always amused by the "Skyfall stole from The Dark Knight" takes. The big one, as had been said earlier in the thread, is that TDK didn't come up with these tropes either. The other one is Nolan cribbed a lot of things from Bond in particular for his Batman films!

    Good point. Like Terence Young admitting to stealing from Hitchcock, both Mendes and Nolan have openly spoken of their influences. Bond influences can be seen in about half of Nolan’s resume.
  • edited October 19 Posts: 4,139
    If riffing on ideas or using similar plot points to your contemporaries/works that came before was a sign of a lack of quality then Shakespeare wouldn’t be considered a great writer. I don’t think it’s a big deal when it comes to Bond either.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    007HallY wrote: »
    If riffing on ideas or using similar plot points to your contemporaries was a sign of a lack of quality then Shakespeare wouldn’t be considered a great writer. I don’t think it’s a big deal.

    Yes, thanks @007HallY . Exactly…

    Once again, someone takes from someone. Always. We told stories by fire… the Greeks developed these stories. Shakespeare and his contemporaries cribbed from the Greeks… on and on through the history of storytelling… There aren’t original stories to be invented; just the way in which we tell them can be seen as unique and/or original.
  • edited October 20 Posts: 1,985
    True, even Terence Young freely admitted he was stealing from Hitchcock.

    Stealing what?

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    CrabKey wrote: »
    True, even Terence Young freely admitted he was stealing from Hitchcock.

    Stealing what?

    He did openly admit the helicopter fight was a homage to North by Northwest.
  • Posts: 1,985
    AH included a gyrocopter chase in the 1935 version of The 39 Steps. An homage to himself? The reference to NXNW six years later didn't seem like a blatant lift. The character Jaws two years after JAWS wasn't even subtle, nor Moonraker two years after Star Wars and CE3K.

    I prefer to see Bond films taking the lead, rather than borrowing from other successful films. Have any of us seen anything truly original in a film we haven't seen before, so there will alway be that. I expect a little more of a Bond.
  • edited October 20 Posts: 4,139
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    007HallY wrote: »
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.

    We are back to this again. It's funny how, even our conversations aren't original, lol. We loop back to the same "storylines" over and over, 😂.
    Have any of us seen anything truly original in a film we haven't seen before, so there will alway be that.

    I'm not sure what you mean here, @CrabKey ?
  • edited October 20 Posts: 4,139
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.

    We are back to this again. It's funny how, even our conversations aren't original, lol. We loop back to the same "storylines" over and over, 😂.

    I’d like to think of them more as riffs on previous conversations and using them to create a new one…

    But yes, it is quite funny 😂
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    007HallY wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.

    We are back to this again. It's funny how, even our conversations aren't original, lol. We loop back to the same "storylines" over and over, 😂.

    I’d like to think of them more as riffs on previous conversations and using them to create a new one…

    But yes, it is quite funny 😂

    ...riffs of the same old conversations, creating new ones, to circle back to the old ones again in ten days, lol...!
  • edited October 20 Posts: 4,139
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.

    We are back to this again. It's funny how, even our conversations aren't original, lol. We loop back to the same "storylines" over and over, 😂.

    I’d like to think of them more as riffs on previous conversations and using them to create a new one…

    But yes, it is quite funny 😂

    ...riffs of the same old conversations, creating new ones, to circle back to the old ones again in ten days, lol...!

    Oh it’s alright. In those ten days between that there’ll be discussions about whether any character conflict is needed in a Bond film, how slow and unmotivated EON are, and how no one who’s 14 years old cares about Bond.

    Not that I of course ever engage in such conversations and help keep them constantly circling back to each other 😂
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    007HallY wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But all films borrow from others. That’s the point.

    Again, take The Dark Knight which supposedly SF has similarities to. There’s nothing in there that hadn’t been done before, and by the director’s own words was consciously created with other movies in mind. A villain elaborately escaping from prison and psychologically gaining the upper hand from the hero during an interrogation? Silence of the Lambs, and the similar segment in SF evokes that film too. A major character being killed unexpectedly far into the story? Psycho. Even Burn After Reading from the same year as TDK did that, amongst many other examples which is how broad a plot point it is. Severine’s death in SF isn’t anything new either in that sense. Batman gets given gadgets which has similarities to a typical Bond/Q scene. The bank heist and truck chase in TDK have visual similarities to similar scenes in Heat and LA Takedown. There’s more examples, but that’s just the big ones (I’m sure when you start going deeper into the general ideas of both films they’ll start to look very similar to other movies from years previously).

    Films aren’t created in a vacuum. They’re individual works that use story and filmmaking techniques which have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Even if Bond were to take the lead (whatever that means - one can argue CR ‘took the lead’ with regards to the Bond series even with its Bourne influences) it’d still have similarities to something else, even other successful films from the same period.

    We are back to this again. It's funny how, even our conversations aren't original, lol. We loop back to the same "storylines" over and over, 😂.

    I’d like to think of them more as riffs on previous conversations and using them to create a new one…

    But yes, it is quite funny 😂

    ...riffs of the same old conversations, creating new ones, to circle back to the old ones again in ten days, lol...!

    Oh it’s alright. In those ten days between that there’ll be discussions about whether any character conflict is needed in a Bond film, how slow and unmotivated EON are, and how no one who’s 14 years old cares about Bond.

    Not that I of course ever engage in such conversations and help keep them constantly circling back to each other 😂

    Agreed, agreed, and me too, 😆!!
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    007HallY wrote: »
    I can see the similarities between SF and John Wick, and the latter may well have been influenced by Bond. But it’s also worth saying movies always take things from other movies. It’s the way you create something. It’s a bit like Silva’s plan to get captured only to escape - a lot of people would say it was first done in The Dark Knight with Joker (it was definitely a plot trope that showed up in movies for a few years afterwards - Star Trek, Avengers, SF etc). I always say it’s basically a riff on Hannibal Lecter’s escape from Silence of the Lambs (there’s even interview scenes between the villains and the heroes in all of them where the villain, usually in a glass prison, gets the upper hand psychologically).

    Silence of the Lambs came out many years ago didn’t have Lecter deliberately getting caught after a long sequence where the good guys almost lose. A good story takes from much older material and adds something fresh and new that helps stamp its own identity on it - in the 70’s Star Wars took its ideas from all over the place (several sci-fi novelists considered suing), but it did so with such panache (and ground-breaking special effects) that it felt new; years later Raiders of the Lost Ark did the same thing. Skyfall unfortunately took a criticised plot-point from a very recent, very successful film, and failed to improve upon it. It’s one of my favourite Bond films, but that ‘this was the villain’s plan all along!!!’ plot-device is its weakest point.

    Yes, all films borrow ideas from somewhere else, but ideally they don’t take from something that was a big success just a few years previously, and most importantly they do it so well and put their own stamp upon it feels new, and feels like a quite natural place for the franchise to go. Moonraker, with its laser-pistol battle in space, would be an example of chasing a trend that feels rather out of place with the franchise’s identity.

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