Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 3,327
    mtm wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Good points @HildebrandRarity. Yes, I believe you're right about TMWTGG having to meet it's Christmas deadline and couldn't be shifted. Something to do with all the major cinemas having already been alotted and counted for. It's also worth remembering that blockbusters like The Towering Inferno and The Godfather Part II were also released the same month as TMWTGG which must have contributed to its overall drop in tickets sold.

    I don't know whether the contract clause barring EON from adapting Fleming’s TSWLM original novel still stands, or whether the Fleming estate would feel more relaxed about giving them go ahead to use it now.

    My confidence in the writers and producers at EON is at an all time low at the moment, and as long as they remain in charge I don't think we'll see Fleming's material properly adapted on screen. They had the chance to do it big time with NTTD and the YOLT novel, but they bottled it at the last hurdle, giving us something cheap and nasty in its place.

    I would say what they did had more bottle than the YOLT novel. Fleming didn't even have Bond find out about his kid.

    Probably because Fleming realised in doing so it would be difficult for the series to continue, something that EON obviously didn’t
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    mtm wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Good points @HildebrandRarity. Yes, I believe you're right about TMWTGG having to meet it's Christmas deadline and couldn't be shifted. Something to do with all the major cinemas having already been alotted and counted for. It's also worth remembering that blockbusters like The Towering Inferno and The Godfather Part II were also released the same month as TMWTGG which must have contributed to its overall drop in tickets sold.

    I don't know whether the contract clause barring EON from adapting Fleming’s TSWLM original novel still stands, or whether the Fleming estate would feel more relaxed about giving them go ahead to use it now.

    My confidence in the writers and producers at EON is at an all time low at the moment, and as long as they remain in charge I don't think we'll see Fleming's material properly adapted on screen. They had the chance to do it big time with NTTD and the YOLT novel, but they bottled it at the last hurdle, giving us something cheap and nasty in its place.

    I would say what they did had more bottle than the YOLT novel. Fleming didn't even have Bond find out about his kid.

    Probably because Fleming realised in doing so it would be difficult for the series to continue, something that EON obviously didn’t

    Only if you’re committed to your character never growing or maturing, which most qualified writers would wisely advise against.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 418
    Minion wrote: »
    Only if you’re committed to your character never growing or maturing, which most qualified writers would wisely advise against.

    I'm not sure about that, certain types of character are better if they don't. I'm a big fan of detective fiction and I can't say I ever saw much sign of "growth" in the likes of Sherlock Holmes or Lew Archer or "Hercules Parrot" or the Continental Op. They are already mature when we meet them and although sometimes we learn more about aspects of the past that made them what they are, what they are is what they need to be, in order to facilitate the story, and they never really change. Anything else just gets in the way, as Conan Doyle found out when he mistakenly decide to have Dr Watson fall in love and get married. It got in the way of the Holmes / Watson working relationship, so she had to die...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    My confidence in the producers; meaning Barbara and Michael, are higher now. I feel more strongly positive about them after NTTD compared to after Spectre. They are not stupid, either. They know they cannot try to replicate the same magic that Daniel Craig gave us. It has to be different. I am savoring NTTD now (and cannot wait to get whichever DVD has the most commentary and bonus features), but I am excited for 2022 as we learn more about the direction EON is heading for the next film.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I love Inception a lot. But I don't need or desire Nolan directing a Bond movie.
    I honestly hope Cary returns and takes it on as a new challenge to do a different film from NTTD, different tone, different actor will dictate a lot of that ... but he is a great director, so strong visually. I do want him back.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Seve wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    Only if you’re committed to your character never growing or maturing, which most qualified writers would wisely advise against.

    I'm not sure about that, certain types of character are better if they don't. I'm a big fan of detective fiction and I can't say I ever saw much sign of "growth" in the likes of Sherlock Holmes or Lew Archer or "Hercules Parrot" or the Continental Op. They are already mature when we meet them and although sometimes we learn more about aspects of the past that made them what they are, what they are is what they need to be, in order to facilitate the story, and they never really change. Anything else just gets in the way, as Conan Doyle found out when he mistakenly decide to have Dr Watson fall in love and get married. It got in the way of the Holmes / Watson working relationship, so she had to die...

    When did Watson's wife die in the original cannon? I'm not an expert but I understand she just sort of got ignored, except for a few mentions here and there.

    It's not impossible to make a series with an unchangeable hero, but it's harder nowadays. Even I'm the novels, both OHMSS and YOLT represented points of no return for Bond. TMWTGG was never completely convincing as a return to form.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Sherlock Holmes stories: Yes, Watson's wife died.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,327
    Minion wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Good points @HildebrandRarity. Yes, I believe you're right about TMWTGG having to meet it's Christmas deadline and couldn't be shifted. Something to do with all the major cinemas having already been alotted and counted for. It's also worth remembering that blockbusters like The Towering Inferno and The Godfather Part II were also released the same month as TMWTGG which must have contributed to its overall drop in tickets sold.

    I don't know whether the contract clause barring EON from adapting Fleming’s TSWLM original novel still stands, or whether the Fleming estate would feel more relaxed about giving them go ahead to use it now.

    My confidence in the writers and producers at EON is at an all time low at the moment, and as long as they remain in charge I don't think we'll see Fleming's material properly adapted on screen. They had the chance to do it big time with NTTD and the YOLT novel, but they bottled it at the last hurdle, giving us something cheap and nasty in its place.

    I would say what they did had more bottle than the YOLT novel. Fleming didn't even have Bond find out about his kid.

    Probably because Fleming realised in doing so it would be difficult for the series to continue, something that EON obviously didn’t

    Only if you’re committed to your character never growing or maturing, which most qualified writers would wisely advise against.

    Fleming did allow the character to grow and mature though. He just never killed him off, because that would be the end of the series.

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here? Are you saying you need to kill the character off to allow him to grow and mature? And are you saying Fleming wasn't a qualified writer?
  • CJF should definitely be invited back. He says he claims to have an idea for a reboot idea so let's see. Actor wise I haven't a clue where they go. Tom Hardy almost seems too obvious. Is Tom Hiddleston too tall for the role? Of course the actor doesn't need to be called Tom. I'm obviously biased as that's my name.
  • Posts: 3,327
    I love Inception a lot. But I don't need or desire Nolan directing a Bond movie.
    I honestly hope Cary returns and takes it on as a new challenge to do a different film from NTTD, different tone, different actor will dictate a lot of that ... but he is a great director, so strong visually. I do want him back.

    After the disaster that was Tenet, I wouldn't want Nolan near Bond. Before Tenet, yes, but not now.

    For all NTTD's faults, I wouldn't say the direction was one of them. I liked the way it was shot. So I'd be up for Cary returning, just not the writers.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,366
    mtm wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Good points @HildebrandRarity. Yes, I believe you're right about TMWTGG having to meet it's Christmas deadline and couldn't be shifted. Something to do with all the major cinemas having already been alotted and counted for. It's also worth remembering that blockbusters like The Towering Inferno and The Godfather Part II were also released the same month as TMWTGG which must have contributed to its overall drop in tickets sold.

    I don't know whether the contract clause barring EON from adapting Fleming’s TSWLM original novel still stands, or whether the Fleming estate would feel more relaxed about giving them go ahead to use it now.

    My confidence in the writers and producers at EON is at an all time low at the moment, and as long as they remain in charge I don't think we'll see Fleming's material properly adapted on screen. They had the chance to do it big time with NTTD and the YOLT novel, but they bottled it at the last hurdle, giving us something cheap and nasty in its place.

    I would say what they did had more bottle than the YOLT novel. Fleming didn't even have Bond find out about his kid.

    Probably because Fleming realised in doing so it would be difficult for the series to continue, something that EON obviously didn’t

    It’s not going to continue, it’s going to restart. The ending was a bit of a clue! :)
  • Posts: 15,114
    Sherlock Holmes stories: Yes, Watson's wife died.

    When dies she die?
  • Posts: 7,507
    CJF should definitely be invited back. He says he claims to have an idea for a reboot idea so let's see. Actor wise I haven't a clue where they go. Tom Hardy almost seems too obvious. Is Tom Hiddleston too tall for the role? Of course the actor doesn't need to be called Tom. I'm obviously biased as that's my name.

    I really hope they don't go with Hiddleston. :-&
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,366
    I’m in two minds about CJF coming back: it’s a good film, the drama is handled especially well but I thought the direction wasn’t always perfect and honestly I missed the Bond style and sophistication that Mendes brought. Plus the action wasn’t always especially well-handled (I got confused in the Cuba fight) or particularly inventive (the Norway chase just comes down to Bond bashing his car against the sides of the other cars over and over), and there’s nothing in the way of big Bond moments that celebrate his unique way of getting things done and make you smile. Even the unveiling of the V8 in it garage is almost a note for note remake of the similar scene in Skyfall (almost literally in terms of the music!) and yet felt much flatter to me, whereas the Skyfall scene was joyous. There are no really bold moments of directorial flare, which I think we certainly would have got if Boyle had done it; whether you think that’s good or bad is up to you of course.

    I wouldn’t be upset if he came back, but equally I wouldn’t feel it was a massive missed opportunity if he didn’t.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    mtm wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    I don't know whether the contract clause barring EON from adapting Fleming’s TSWLM original novel still stands, or whether the Fleming estate would feel more relaxed about giving them go ahead to use it now.

    A Bond movie told from the perspective of another character who meets James Bond would certainly be a unique and interesting way to introduce a new James Bond into the world.

    I like that, I could imagine that feeling quite fresh, yeah.
    Thanks @mtm. I think by having Bond himself not appear until maybe two-thirds of the way through the movie, like Fleming's original TSWLM book, it would be a fresh way of introducing a new actor playing Bond. That way they can skip the whole origin story and a repeat of the same 007 being assigned a mission trope in London. They don''t even need to go two-thirds of the way, one-third would be perfectly fine. (Think Bond's introduction in Dr No reimagined and further in as an example) Though I understand that Fleming was not happy with the book and attempted to suppress elements of it where he could: he blocked a paperback edition in the UK and only gave permission for the title to be used when he sold the film rights to Saltzman and Broccoli, rather than any aspects of the plots. However, it still remains one of the original Fleming stories (aside from MR, DAF, YOLT and TMWTGG) that was not adapted faithfully to the screen, and that's untapped potential in my eyes. Though I'm not specifically saying EON should follow the book too closely, I'm simply saying they could adapt elements of the novel structure the same way they used CR for the basis of their Craig reboot, adding more action and flesh to the bones.

    With regards to Nolan, I think we might be getting slightly off track here. Even Nolan himself said "They seem to be doing fine without me" when asked about being the next Bond director. In all likelihood, they're bound to ask Fukunaga back to launch their next 007 going forwards. Personally, I think Nolan would only come on-board if their next Bond crashed and burned. If they cast wisely, I don't see that happeing. But there's a big "if" inserted as a caveat.
  • bondsum wrote: »
    Even Nolan himself said "They seem to be doing fine without me" when asked about being the next Bond director.

    Oh, he said that many years ago, long before NTTD. He has always implied that he was waiting for the Craig era to end, because he wants a clean slate.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,287
    echo wrote: »
    Ugh, no Nolan. That's just asking for more franchise bloat.

    Bond 26 should be sleek and swift...I don't want to see any holdovers of actors, not a one. And I don't want any Vesper or Madeleine mentioned or even contemplated. You need M of course. But Q and Moneypenny only as needed.

    Think of it as an alternate universe Bond.

    I think so too. Cut the run time, cut the bloat, cut the emotional baggage, trim the support characters back a bit, and create a good villain.

    Even cut the budget back a bit, perhaps. Nice and lean.

    Still I’m not Eon and they can do whatever they want

    In retrospect, I prefer the emotionally-disengaged Bond of CR, moments like:

    M noting Bond's emotional detachment after Solange's death

    "The bitch is dead" and of course

    "Bond, James Bond."

    Where this era went awry was when they started doing direct sequels.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    bondsum wrote: »
    Even Nolan himself said "They seem to be doing fine without me" when asked about being the next Bond director.

    Oh, he said that many years ago, long before NTTD. He has always implied that he was waiting for the Craig era to end, because he wants a clean slate.
    I believe it was put to him after Craig hinted SP would be his last. The interviewer asked him: "...Mendes will be stepping down... is it time perhaps this is your next thing: the Nolan Bond where he travels back in time or...?" Nolan laughed at that, possibly at the travelling back in time example that was given.

    On another footing, if the next Bond is Tom Hardy, then I believe it will be Nolan as the next director. Taking a sample of what Nolan said himself: "Over the years I've met with Barbara and Michael who are just the most incredible people and most incredible producers. But that's part of the problem. They're such incredible producers, they do great on their own. I'd love to work with them at some point but it would have to make sense. I put it this way, somebody else asked me this question recently and I said I'd have to be needed. You know, I mean there's no point in turning up to just say action and cut, and I think they've got a really good thing going and I Iove going to watch those movies." Nolan was then asked when given that opportunity had he given it any thought about what he'd want to do with the character that hadn't been done before and what hadn't been mined, and he responded: "Absolutely. I've put myself to sleep for the last 40 years trying to figure that out..." Of course, Nolan wouldn't reveal anything as they were the only cards he held.

    Okay. Let's for a minute assume it is Nolan taking on the franchise. What's that "unmined" and unexplored James Bond he could be talking about, and how would you like to see that being utilized in Bond 26?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,366
    It's beyond me. Bond isn't that complex a character or concept, so I'm certainly not jealous of them having to think up a new approach to it. I can't think of any new approaches.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Right now, I'd say classic is the new new, if that makes any sense, lol. I also don't think Bond is a complex character or concept. New approaches are also not that necessary to make a good quality film, well written, within a genre of its own. There's plenty to infuse quality in besides new and maybe subversive approaches.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,287
    Perhaps some of Bond's DNA survived and he can be cloned! Tanner stumbles upon it, takes it to M and they debate it, and then Moneypenny, Q, and Nomi all weigh in under three looming portraits of Judi Dench, Vesper wearing her necklace, and Anthony Newley.

    They can bring the entire gang back together for Bond 26! Including clone Vesper and clone Judi Dench!

    Nah. Bond 26 is likely to be a massively scaled-back production, because Covid will still be with us. And the film will be better for it.

  • Posts: 6,709
    echo wrote: »
    Nah. Bond 26 is likely to be a massively scaled-back production, because Covid will still be with us. And the film will be better for it.

    I really hope so. Just write a tight good spy thriller, and set it in London and at the white cliffs of Dover. Make it stylish, Bondian, with a cracking brass section playing the theme,..., a MR done right, of sorts, piggybacking the new private space programs by magnates. Throw in a game with M at Le Cercle. And that's that ;)
  • EinoRistoSiniahoEinoRistoSiniaho Oulu, Finland
    edited October 2021 Posts: 73
    echo wrote: »
    Nah. Bond 26 is likely to be a massively scaled-back production, because Covid will still be with us. And the film will be better for it.
    Indeed. There is no reason why a Bond films has to cost 200 million. Dr. No cost only half of a then average Hollywood production. A fewer locations and inventive use of sets, miniatures and matte paintings could do wonders. Stallone's Expendables series have been pretty epic when it comes to action scenes and none of them has cost over 70 million - and their casts are way more expensive than in Bond films (apart from established actor in lead role). Bond also has the advantage of getting product placement money - something which Stallone doesn't get, at least not on the scale of Bond films.

    But what I'd want to see? SPECTRE re-reintroduced, with its leader kept hidden a la FRWL and Thunderball. Perhaps end Bond 26 with Bond/MI6 getting a hint of some secretive private intelligence agency not averse towards fanning the flames of discord for their own monetary gain.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    I'm still going with my re-worked TSWLM format for Bond 26. Though I'd start the movie with a female operative, omitting the kitchen sink realism of the book, and have her falling more and more down on her luck until she meets James Bond when she's finally reached rock bottom. Bond can still tell our female protagonist that he is in America (or wherever) in the wake of Operation Thunderball and was detailed to protect a Chinese nuclear expert who defected to the West and who now lives in Toronto or perhaps a new Stateside location, as part of his quest to ferret out SPECTRE. This way we pick-up events immediately after Thunderball and can form our own narrative of what proceeded them. Our female protagonist can be called either Vivienne "Viv" Michel, like in the book, or have a totally new name. We can still have Horror and Sluggsy after her, but they are just two of many different miscreants that want to eliminate our heroine and stop her from talking. Instead of having our chief antagonist Sanguinetti simply wanting to burn down a motel as an insurance scam, we can have our female protagonist unwittingly uncover something far more sinister that leads to her needing to be eradicated, much like Max Shreck needing to do away with his secretary in Batman Returns. Of course, the circumstances leading up to this catalytic event can be totally different to those of Selina Kyle, or even Natalya Simonova working as a Level 2 programmer in GE. She might have simply stumbled upon a SPECTRE blackmail plot similar to those used in FRWL by SMERSH, or the proposed plans for the illegal acquisition of a futuristic weaponary plant. The most important thing is she's a woman on the run and Bond arrives at just the right moment to pick up the reins.

    Okay, I admit I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but it's start.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Unfortunately, I feel they only had one shot at reintroducing SPECTRE for modern audiences and Mendes/Logan blew it. At this point, better to let it rest.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 12,466
    I am strongly in favor of having SPECTRE sit out at least the next era or two. That was the most botched aspect of the Craig era IMO.

    EDIT: Also, more female villains again please, especially at least one new main one.
  • echo wrote: »
    Nah. Bond 26 is likely to be a massively scaled-back production, because Covid will still be with us. And the film will be better for it.

    They have filmed several films just as big as NTTD during COVID, such as M:I 7, The Matrix 4 or Indiana Jones 5 (still filming). Sure, The Matrix isn't a globetrotting film like Bond, but the other two examples are. Also, the COVID situation will only improve from now on, and by the time cameras start rolling on Bond 26 (years from now), COVID will be a a very little nuisance, if any at all.
  • EinoRistoSiniahoEinoRistoSiniaho Oulu, Finland
    Posts: 73
    Blofeld certainly was botched, but they could bring SPECTRE back during actor #(00)7's reign, led by Irma Bunt like I've suggested. But if they let it rest for a while I'm fine with that too.
    Eventually they will bring them and even Blofeld back - EON has spent too much time, effort and money to get the rights to just use them just a bit.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Minion wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I feel they only had one shot at reintroducing SPECTRE for modern audiences and Mendes/Logan blew it. At this point, better to let it rest.
    The only drawback of jettisoning SPECTRE going forwards is the lack of Big Bad and return of the multiple megalomaniac tropes. Fleming was smart enough to invent an adversary he could reuse instead of relying on new characters, much like Conan Doyle did with Professor Moriarty. Without SPECTRE driving the narrative, we could get another repeat of Dominic Greene, Brad Whitaker, Franz Sanchez or a Gustav Graves. I mean, does the same apply to Felix Leiter, a character that's already been reused but now dead? Do we have Bond existing in a total vacuum without any of his side characters going forwards? I think SPECTRE can be mentioned in a new timeline, but not necessarily shown straight away.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,366
    I really liked how much NTTD really leant into Spectre and Blofeld and all of that: because Blofeld is kind of a joke name for a mega villain nowadays, but they really owned it by not being ashamed of it at all and treating it all with deadly seriousness.
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