Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,508
    We will find out in 2030 or thereabouts when film is likely to be released

    Hopefully not, right now 2028 seems the most likely year.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 112
    JustJames wrote: »
    It's called subtlety, something we find hard to appreciate nowadays because we're so used to "DIE BLOFELD DIE" and "Its always been me James, Cuckoo!"

    You do realise that "Die Blofeld die" comes from Fleming's novel, which was published over half a century ago?
    So much for your "nowadays" claim.

    Besides, the revenge plot angle in TSWLM is not subtle; being subtle would mean that the angle is still there even when they don't talk about it. With Bond and Anya happily getting into bed together at the end of the movie the filmmakers were straight up ignoring the plot angle, not making it subtle. It doesn't make any sense for Anya to go to bed with the man who killed her boyfriend a few days earlier.

    You’re right. It isn’t subtle. But you are wrong about it being ignored, and didn’t grasp the plot events that discount your last sentence there.

    Primarily, Anya and Bond are in the same business. Her boyfriend tried to kill Bond. Bond killed him instead. Much like her promise of delayed vengeance, it is the business. Her *decision* to not kill Bond is based on her experiences in the film, including seeing precisely *how* Bond has a different, possibly better, approach to the morals and ethics of that business. Bond risked his life to save hers, which had no effect on the mission outcome. He did it to save *her*. In addition to whatever else they had got up to prior to her realising it was Bond that had killed her boyfriend, she changes her opinions and intent regarding Bond. She *also* is fully aware that he is someone who lost his significant other to ‘the business’ and that that is why he accepts the threat of her vengeance calmly — it’s what he would have done, and did do, in her position. Her opinion over that also changes, because that was a circle of vengeance and tit-for-tat, which the whole *point* of this story is about. That’s how the world would be destroyed. Avoiding that attitude is why XXX and OO7 are working together. Why Soviet and Western crews ally up throughout the finale.

    It’s the whole point of the film.

    The obvious fact it isn’t being ignored, is that she pulls the gun on him in the luxury escape pod, and Bond himself shows that he considers it possible that she will kill him.
    Then it’s champagne corks popping and keeping the British end up, because the delayed vengeance plot has been resolved by events in the story.

    That and he’s James Bond.

    As you can see, TSWLM is as deep as anything mustered in the modern era, it just had more fun doing it. The same is true of the quasi-retread that is TND.

    It's a very interesting analysis for sure, but I fear you put more thought in it than the filmmakers did. IMO them shagging each other at the end was a step too far; had they just parted their ways it would have made it resonate better (again, IMO).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,715
    JustJames wrote: »
    It's called subtlety, something we find hard to appreciate nowadays because we're so used to "DIE BLOFELD DIE" and "Its always been me James, Cuckoo!"

    You do realise that "Die Blofeld die" comes from Fleming's novel, which was published over half a century ago?
    So much for your "nowadays" claim.

    Besides, the revenge plot angle in TSWLM is not subtle; being subtle would mean that the angle is still there even when they don't talk about it. With Bond and Anya happily getting into bed together at the end of the movie the filmmakers were straight up ignoring the plot angle, not making it subtle. It doesn't make any sense for Anya to go to bed with the man who killed her boyfriend a few days earlier.

    You’re right. It isn’t subtle. But you are wrong about it being ignored, and didn’t grasp the plot events that discount your last sentence there.

    Primarily, Anya and Bond are in the same business. Her boyfriend tried to kill Bond. Bond killed him instead. Much like her promise of delayed vengeance, it is the business. Her *decision* to not kill Bond is based on her experiences in the film, including seeing precisely *how* Bond has a different, possibly better, approach to the morals and ethics of that business. Bond risked his life to save hers, which had no effect on the mission outcome. He did it to save *her*. In addition to whatever else they had got up to prior to her realising it was Bond that had killed her boyfriend, she changes her opinions and intent regarding Bond. She *also* is fully aware that he is someone who lost his significant other to ‘the business’ and that that is why he accepts the threat of her vengeance calmly — it’s what he would have done, and did do, in her position. Her opinion over that also changes, because that was a circle of vengeance and tit-for-tat, which the whole *point* of this story is about. That’s how the world would be destroyed. Avoiding that attitude is why XXX and OO7 are working together. Why Soviet and Western crews ally up throughout the finale.

    It’s the whole point of the film.

    The obvious fact it isn’t being ignored, is that she pulls the gun on him in the luxury escape pod, and Bond himself shows that he considers it possible that she will kill him.
    Then it’s champagne corks popping and keeping the British end up, because the delayed vengeance plot has been resolved by events in the story.

    That and he’s James Bond.

    As you can see, TSWLM is as deep as anything mustered in the modern era, it just had more fun doing it. The same is true of the quasi-retread that is TND.

    It's a very interesting analysis for sure, but I fear you put more thought in it than the filmmakers did.

    Tend to agree. if they'd wanted to play up the 'I'll kill you after' angle then have it come up during the climax; and when he comes to Atlantis to rescue her there's your opportunity to show Anya being confused that Bond would come to save her when he knows she'll kill him- but none of that is there. I think it would make it a bit stronger, but regardless the filmmakers don't seem very interested in it, as you say.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2 Posts: 3,187
    Yes, as head canon there's some great stuff in what JustJames posted, much of which would've added nicely to the film (as would Anya being confused by Bond coming to save her when he knows she'll kill him), but...I don't see it in there either, tbh. I wish I did!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,992
    We will find out in 2030 or thereabouts when film is likely to be released
    Then I'll be retired and finally able to catch up on the Who should/could be a Bond actor? discussion. Looking forward to it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,715
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, as head canon there's some great stuff in what JustJames posted, much of which would've added nicely to the film (as would Anya being confused by Bond coming to save her when he knows she'll kill him), but...I don't see it in there either, tbh. I wish I did!

    Yeah I can kind of imagine a nice moment where Anya sees Bond and says something like "why would you come for me when you know I will kill you?", something explodes, the whole base rocks and water showers on them, and Bond juts out his jaw, grabs her hand and says "Come on, you can kill me later" :D
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2 Posts: 3,187
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I can kind of imagine a nice moment where Anya sees Bond and says something like "why would you come for me when you know I will kill you?", something explodes, the whole base rocks and water showers on them, and Bond juts out his jaw, grabs her hand and says "Come on, you can kill me later" :D
    Perfect - that would've been great, mtm. I'll now head canon that as a deleted scene! :D
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    edited January 2 Posts: 112
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, as head canon there's some great stuff in what JustJames posted, much of which would've added nicely to the film (as would Anya being confused by Bond coming to save her when he knows she'll kill him), but...I don't see it in there either, tbh. I wish I did!

    Yeah I can kind of imagine a nice moment where Anya sees Bond and says something like "why would you come for me when you know I will kill you?", something explodes, the whole base rocks and water showers on them, and Bond juts out his jaw, grabs her hand and says "Come on, you can kill me later" :D

    Brilliant. Such a simple change, and that would elevate TSWLM from a good movie to a great one.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,417
    Nobody wants a crybaby Bond. That's all.

    Look at the craig era. The formula dried quickly.


    You have all the time in the world.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,508
    If Amazon is worried Bond isn't a hero anymore, then perhaps the best option is to pull a Mattel with Barbie and let someone shine a spotlight on it. people were shocked that Mattel were willing to address how Barbie is a source of unrealistic beauty standards, but it turns out that was far more popular and probably sold more new dolls than any more traditional toys to life movie could have.
  • edited January 3 Posts: 4,372
    To be fair they've done the whole 'meta commentary' (if you can call it that) about Bond's relevance in SF and GE. There are other points in the series where they've sort of done that too. I'm thinking of Volpe in TB sarcastically chiding Bond about being able to turn any woman just by sleeping with them (which I always assumed was a reference to criticisms about how silly that aspect of Bond films/books are). I also find Barbie an awfully cynical film when it comes to 'addressing' these issues about its product (Mattel have always been fine with pseudo feminism being connected with Barbie and poking fun at themselves. That said I have no doubt there's a lot the filmmakers were told specifically not to mention about the company - this is, after all, a company that's been accused of using child labour in many of their factories abroad. So that internal criticism about themselves has always felt very hollow to me. That and I just found it a bad movie). Bond I think is a lot better about these sorts of things.

    Anyway, as to how Bond 26 could tackle questions of Bond's heroism - I'd say Bond is a flawed character whose vices are double edged swords for himself and others. The Brosnan and particularly the Craig films did a great job of leaning into that with things like Bond being responsible for the deaths of certain women, showing us his heavy drinking at points in his career. But ultimately it comes down to Bond doing heroic and selfless things, defeating the villain, saving the day etc. Just keep that general approach and I think they should be fine.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,508
    I think that Volpe line was a direct quote from a harsh review that one of the previous films had got. I could be wrong, but I remember hearing that somewhere.

    However honourable or cynical Mattels intentions, it hard to argue that the message of "what was I made for" and the use of the toys to reflect the respective genders place was something that resonated massively with general audiences. They call it metamodernism I think, and I bring up this example because a lot of the time people will say "oh you could never do THAT in a Bond film anymore" when it comes to some of the cheesier stuff, like the eyebrow arching, slightly silly one liners, directing action scenes with a comedic bent etc. But I think you could absolutely still do that stuff, if it's handled corrected and presented as the superficial outward appearance of Bond's life, exotic, thrilling etc. Just as Barbie land appears idyllic on the surface. You could have your cake and eat it essentially, and have the silliness in a modern context that still works dramatic and doesn't devolve into self-parody.
  • edited January 3 Posts: 4,372
    Didn't know that about the Volpe line. Interesting.

    It depends on exactly what they do with Bond in this instance I suppose. I think all that outward stuff like the outlandishness, humour and self awareness is always there to some extent with these films. It was certainly there in Craig's last three quite overtly I'd say (by SF we get great moments like Bond adjusting his cuffs after leaping onto a train, and the double joke of 'he's keen to get home'/'health and safety, carry on', which I can definitely imagine in a Moore or Brosnan film). I don't think there's quite that sense that Bond can't do those things nowadays, and in effect the last few films have 'had their cake and eaten in two' in the way you described. So I'm not sure exactly what this metamodernism would look like or how it would all differ to what Bond has done in the past.
  • edited January 3 Posts: 1,500
    Kingsman and The man from UNCLE were very self aware.

    I think that self-parody cannot be ruled out if it is done well.

  • edited January 3 Posts: 4,372
    An issue I have with the Kingsman films are that while they're fun to watch and definitely have that heightened style to them, I always find there's little sense of genuine danger when compared to Bond movies. The action is so stylised in that almost cartoonish way that everything feels a bit superficial after a point, again fun as it is. Bond I think is much better at blending that absurdity with something that feels real, and for all its style and comedic beats it's never quite been as cartoonish. I don't think Kingsman's style is quite the route Bond should go, but I like self aware Bond gags/moments (again, some were the highlights of SF in my opinion)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,715
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't think Kingsman's style is quite the route Bond should go, but I like self aware Bond gags/moments (again, some were the highlights of SF in my opinion)

    One of my favourite is quite subtle: in the PTS when Bond and Eve are chasing the Audi, they pass a line of police motorbikes who all fire their engines up and give chase as the car passes. It's not exactly overt and maybe not intentional, but it seems such a pleasingly cheesy nod to the way Bond chases of old were shot that I can't imagine they weren't having a little fun doing that.
  • edited January 3 Posts: 4,372
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't think Kingsman's style is quite the route Bond should go, but I like self aware Bond gags/moments (again, some were the highlights of SF in my opinion)

    One of my favourite is quite subtle: in the PTS when Bond and Eve are chasing the Audi, they pass a line of police motorbikes who all fire their engines up and give chase as the car passes. It's not exactly overt and maybe not intentional, but it seems such a pleasingly cheesy nod to the way Bond chases of old were shot that I can't imagine they weren't having a little fun doing that.

    It's a very old school moment. Hell, go back far enough to silent comedy films and you have similar moments where police are passed by Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin speeding or doing something odd and they give chase in that elaborate way.

    I get what you mean. It's moment/gag the audience register, silly as it is, but it all feels natural and in tone for the film. It's one of the things I think SF does exceptionally well, and all Bond movies do to some extent. It's a film that has that element of heightened reality to it - Bond can hijack a digger on a train, leap and adjust his cuffs after etc. but it doesn't feel jarring or out of universe. It's all just part of that Bondian experience. I wouldn't want to lose that Bondian vibe for something too cartoonish or self aware like Kingsman or other franchises that, honestly, aren't quite as good as Bond in my opinion.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 3 Posts: 3,187
    Loved Bond straightening the cuffs, groaned a bit at 'He's in a hurry to get home.' Still, could be worse - had it been the '70s, that same couple would've become part of a running gag: on holiday in Rome and in just the right spot for Bond to say 'good evening' to them as he parachuted in after the SP car chase, etc. Probably.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,216
    I agree @007HallY For me, I only really enjoyed the first Kingsman. The rest are just Vaughn going into monotonous, cartoonish mode. If Vaughn wants stylish action scenes, why not do it less outlandish? Or better still he should take inspiration from directors like Sam Peckinpah & John Woo.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 3 Posts: 16,715
    Venutius wrote: »
    Loved Bond straightening the cuffs, groaned a bit at 'He's in a hurry to get home.'

    I agree, but I tend to think the groanworthiness of it was sort of the reason for it. Kind of like it was embracing those old naff gags of Bond films and proudly going for it without irony or being ashamed of it. I kind of loved how rubbish it was! :)
  • edited January 3 Posts: 2,053
    Most, if not all, of the elements from that novel are in the film, they just replaced the actual story and tone in favor of a more cinematic plot that raises the stakes.

    Replacing the story. That says it all.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,187
    mtm wrote: »
    I agree, but I tend to think the groanworthiness of it was sort of the reason for it. Kind of like it was embracing those old naff gags of Bond films and proudly going for it without irony or being ashamed of it. I kind of loved how rubbish it was! :)
    Yes, I'm sure that's what it was. It did work as that and I can see why people laughed and liked it. I was still completely locked in to CR/QOS blunt instrument/black humour Bond at the time and was dead set against any reversion. I'd heard the rumours about SF being a lot lighter than CR/QOS, more gags, etc, so I was maybe a bit too alert for such things. As knowingly lame gags go, it's lasted better than 'got in some deep water', at least!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited January 3 Posts: 8,260
    I knew even as far back as CR’s release that Eon would eventually return to the old Bond tropes with Craig. I didn’t think they would try doubling down on the tone of CR first with QOS though. My guess at the time was that in the second film they might introduce Moneypenny, then Q and gadgets in the third, or the other way around. Eventually we’d have Craig involved in world stakes missions towards the end.

    That’s why I felt QOS was a misstep in many ways. CR made a great debut film, but it wasn’t sustainable as a formula for multiple films. Having a five film run with only the tone of CR/QOS would have made Craig’s run feel too monotonous. That’s why SF was such a hit as it embraced those old tropes with absolute pride, it felt refreshing after the glum QOS.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,417
    QoS really wasn't necessary to Bond's story. You could jump straight from CR into a straightforward mission, say SP.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 3 Posts: 3,187
    Years later, I saw an interview from the QOS promo tour with Craig and Forster where Dan said he wanted to bring Moneypenny and Blofeld back in the next film and in a later interview Forster said that if he'd accepted EON's offer to direct what became SF, he'd've wanted it to be much lighter than QOS, with lots of old-style Bond gags. So, yes, it looks like the change of direction post-QOS was always going to happen. I had no sense of that at all at the time. I loved what they'd achieved with CR and QOS and wanted Dan's run to maintain the style and tone of those.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,715
    I knew even as far back as CR’s release that Eon would eventually return to the old Bond tropes with Craig.

    I think they literally said it at the time, didn't they? That they'd bring in more of the Bond tropes as the films went on. For all the talk of them 'not having enough of a plan' which people always complain about, that is something they said they intended to do from the start and carried out.
  • I just hope EON don’t revert to the jokey Bond
    of the Moore and Brosnan eras. Please keep getting Bond right please in the vein of the Craig era.
  • Posts: 2,011
    I just hope EON don’t revert to the jokey Bond
    of the Moore and Brosnan eras. Please keep getting Bond right please in the vein of the Craig era.

    I think that's what the series needs. It be a breath of fresh air.
  • edited January 4 Posts: 4,372
    I think it depends. Craig's Bond had much more of a blunt, harder edge (and was more sarcastic in his humour) than the others. Even then he's much more relaxed during SP and even NTTD. Still very much Bond, but I don't think any actor should try and imitate his take. It's also worth saying Bond will always be jokey to some extent (he's not really Bond if he doesn't have those quips or wryness to him).

    I think there'll be something fresh about the new Bond. But it won't just be a simple case of 'doing what Moore or Brosnan did' either.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 4 Posts: 8,508
    I wonder if we'll get an official announcement in 2025 about the status/development of the film?

    I'm half expecting to read a headline that says EON are being taken to court for some breach of contract and the hole were in will only get deeper if that happens.
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