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The crux of my feeling is that a reactionary, 'let's dish out justice' response on its own is useless. We have a broken society and it needs fixing. We can't bury our heads in the sand. We've been creating an 'underclass' in the UK for two or three decades now that, instead of genuinely addressing the existence of, we've preferred to vilify and ridicule. And now it's starting to come back to haunt us.
Justice does need to be done. These 'feral kids' - as most of them are in the words of a wise woman whose shop was ransacked - are not victims any more than they're culpable. But, while all of us in are UK saddened, distressed and angry victims of this, we're also culpable to some degree. And I believe that - and have for some time, sorry, guys. The questions we surely should seek to answer is why has this happened? And why do we have a Victorian-style underclass once more? If we come up merely with reactionary, simple, black-and-white answers to them, we're not trying hard enough. Nor are we if we just leave it up to the politicians, social services, police and communities leaders to do so.
By the way, all the frequenters of this forum from London I know personally are fit and well...
These people know what's wrong and what's right. They don't give a monkeys. They have I want it naaaaaaah culture. They saw the police were soft the first night and took advantage, simple as. I wanna iphone, I wanna 50 inch 3d lcd, I wanna....
I've been told some gangs were stealing to order and were being paid in cash for what they stole by ebay thieves.
I agree with you there is something wrong. But no bleedin' hearts please. The situation is so bad, I think any public meeting or march or demonstration will be used as an excuse to go and riot.
So the rule of law must be brought back with an iron fist. Zero tolerance. If this doesn't happen, no amount of community relations, funding blah blah will help. Law and order must be put back high on the agenda first.
Then we'll see what we can do about broken Britain.
These scum bags need the riot act read to them and made an example of. Their lives must be ruined and must be painful.
They must know the pain, fear and suffering they've imparted on so many innocent people.
6 months in prison won't do anything. They need a bleak future where they have no support from the state and they suffer day in day out until they die.
And now must be the time to start the debate - we've avoided it for decades. Like I said, justice must be served, but the debate and sorting out our society is just as important and urgent. Arguably more so. Because this will happen again and again. And no doubt worse. After all, cuts abound - including to the police.
Plus, just to add, myworldisenough, I'm sure you appreciate and weren't entirely suggesting this, but I think it's important to point out - just contributing money (taxes etc) to society isn't enough. We're citizens of society - we're supposed to invest ourselves and time into it too, aren't we? The 'why should I care about them because they're so far gone' argument can only lead to everything getting worse. Dickens and other social reformers/ improvers over a hundred years ago didn't stand for that and surely neither should we.
When a car's tyre blows a puncture, you patch it up immediately otherwise the car might crash; we've got to address this now otherwise 'broken Britain' will crash. Seriously...
It is time to re-establish the rule of law. We have no democracy minus the rule of law.
Order must be restored above all else and punishment meted out. Actions have consequences.
As for George's call to start an overdue debate on how to reform society. I think that discussion has been raging for centuries.
My two cents. The bigger the government the worse off our societies will be. The social welfare state is the villain here. It creates a culture of entitlement and dependancy that is unsustainable. Even here in Canada there is widespread resentment against a public service that can't be downsized, that is governed by unions that are accountable to no-one. Meanwhile sovereign debt is crushing Europe and is close to bankrupting the USA economy. We have public services with iron clad pensions and benefits and all financed by those in the private sector that have no guaranteed pensions, no job security, and who are subject to the realities of the marketplace, when the company they work for can no longer compete or the product line or division they are associated with is no longer viable.
We are building a class of entitled public servants. Government just keeps getting bigger, and sucking more and more cash out of the economy in a misguided attempt at wealth re-distribution, which only serves to depress the economy even more, resulting in more disenfranchised and aliented people who will inevitably riot when they think the deck is stacked against them, which it is. They can't get well paying government jobs. They don't want the lowest paying private sector jobs, assuming those are even available.
The solution is to drastically reduce government spending and public sector hiring and entitlements. Even the sainted FDR, heralded by liberals as the champion of the modern public service, warned against collective bargaining rights for public sector employees. FDR, himself a champion of public service, understood that the public sector should not have an adversarial relationship with the people. As time went on the unions only got stronger, cultivated political support and FDR's vision was corrupted.
We need a public service, but we only need what we actually need. Public sector layoffs and downsizing and wage freezes, even cuts, should be routine and as needed. Some respect for the taxpayers footing the bill please.
During routine, economic downcycles which are part of the market economy equation, we should not be subject to bank-rolling massive government spending and entitlement programs. The economy can't support it. The problem is, that during robust economic cycles government coffers are flush with cash as a result of more tax revenues being generated, so government starts spending and getting fatter, but when the inevitable and natural downturn comes, govenment stays fat and then must go into debt to sustain itself. The cycle repeats and eventually we end up with a government that is so bloated and so debt ridden, it has the capacity to crush the entire economy.
Cue the riots.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/less-political-rebellion-more-mollycoddled-mob/story-e6frg6zo-1226111939883
St George is right when he says that there are sections of society with no morrals. Some People come from bad backgrounds, always have and always will. But that does NOT excuse or justify the behaviour of some over the weekend. Some people may come from a poor family but don't feel the need to go out and riot.
I suspect a lot of people just don't care.
When a car's tyre blows a puncture, you patch it up immediately otherwise the car might crash; we've got to address this now otherwise 'broken Britain' will crash. Seriously... '
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Sorry ST George but I think you misunderstood. I previously stated that, I like many others have been brought up to be respectful, tolerate, law abiding, & hard working. Clearly that statement suggests I contribute in more ways than just paying taxes! However back to my point on taxes, I pay my taxes under the understanding that the taxes I pay are for my benefit, my familes benefit, my friends and my neighbours and other hard earning people or those trying to work and build a better future for themselves. I don't have an issue with my taxes paying to help society in ways that help those most needy. Moving away from taxes / money, I like others agree with your point that we have a responsibilty as a society to do more in other areas and help create a better society for all but you see it has to be a two way street and for those that want to be helped great, but for those scum that have looted and burned down peoples homes and businesses, they must be treated as the scum they are and met with the full force of the law and given the punishment they deserve.
If you want to 'care' about people within our broken society that have no regard to other people's property then be my guest. The only people I care about are decent people no matter their social-economical, ethnic or religious background who like me want to contribute positively to society, both financially and morally.
What happened was wrong, dead wrong. At least two mistakes were made in fact.
1) A minor few people made it sound as if the killing of a criminal by the police justifies countermeasures by an angry mob. Despite well-known cases of police brutality and misuse of authority, it should be said that we should still have faith in the police not shooting people just for the hell of it. We need a degree of order in our society or we might as well crawl up in trees and start throwing our own faeces at each other. The UK is not under a fascist regime. It is not a police state where drug lords rule the army and the cops. The one who died, as I've come to understand, was not exactly a saint. Did his crimes justify the taking of his life? Look, that's up the Courts to decide. Did the taking of his life justify reprisals on the innocent? By all means no!
2) Youngsters who had absolutely nothing to do with this, nothing at all, suddenly get all worked up and unite in one of the most shameful displays in Europe in the last few decades. And it's not like they only attack the police. No! They attack EVERYONE. Once you've targeted the innocent, you've lost all sympathy from me. It should be part of each upbringing of even the smallest toddler that the innocent are to be left alone. They don't harm you, you don't harm them. I must admit that this is where I let emotion win from rational thinking, but because of their attacking of innocent people, no matter what their age, I demand severe punishment. I know this line of reasoning isn't the best one, I know that especially as a teacher I should preach forgiveness and whatnot, but I can't. The 1000 or so caught rioters need to pay for this the rest of their wasted youths (and beyond?). I want them to perform supervised community service for the next bloody decade, during the weekends and of course for free. I want them presented with a bill of who knows how many million pounds and work at least 10 years to pay it back. For the next year, I would install a curfew. Everyone who's under 18, guilty or not, is home before 10.
Furthermore, I want politicians to spread the message for at least another 10 years: YOU caused this, YOU caused your own unemployment, YOU gave the UK a bad name, YOU behaved like baboons in a zoo. I want radical politicians to open up the debate of using the water canon or even live rounds next time something like this would happen. Trust me, I don't think any of this is the right solution. I don't think it would help them make amends. But it would heat up an interesting debate, allow for some highly controversial suggestions to be made, thereby hopefully installing fear in the little devils' hearts that they might have blown their own future in a few days' time. I want these idiots to live with guilt and remorse because that is the best punishment they can get I think. Also, I want the people in the streets to mention it time and time again: I know YOU, YOU were there, YOU were one of those CRIMINALS, YOU're not welcome here, buy your bread and bear somewhere else! You destroyed the very town that might have given you a job, a place to leave and much more. Now this town despises you, and it will for a long time.
Again, I'm not the wisest man when it comes to punishment. I'm much too prone to a desire for satisfying revenge and revenge, sweet as it seems at first, is never a good angle from where to act. So it's a good thing I'm not in a position where I can make a decision. I'm using this post to somewhat ventilate my own frustrations. Remember: one criminal (according to reports - I'm careful) gets shot and London and other places burn. The latter had so little to do in the end with the former, I bet half those apes can't even state the 'reason' for this looting (and there's never a good reason by the way.) It demonstrates what I've been saying for years. Our so-called civilised world is a ticking time bomb of barbarism. So much effort goes into keeping up the façade, it can fall down overnight and we're back in the stone age. And while a slightly more repressive society may not solve all problems and will no doubt create others, I'm nonetheless led to believe that something like this might have been dealt with the same night it started. However, I'm fairly certain I can be proved wrong. It's late, I'm tired and it might be better for me to stop posting here. ;;)
Thankfully all missed. Police are looking for
to question Nicklas Bendtner.
Q: What's the difference between Croydon and
Fernando Torres. A: Croydon's on fire.
Q. What's the difference between
Mark Duggan and Peter Crouch?
A. Crouch never set Tottenham alight.
off topic:
Q. What do you get when you cross
a polar bear with an Eton schoolboy?
A. A polar bear.
There are three riots I can think of in Canada that illustrate that there's no such thing as a typical rioter. We had the G20 meeting in Toronto and there was a peaceful march of several thousand protesters. Within that march some anarchists were hidden; they covered their faces and then started breaking windows, and a few people who were watching joined in. Of course, many people conflated the anarchists with all of the peaceful protesters who marched and most people aren't aware of what a small number of troublemakers there was. But the problem is even a couple of those guys can do a lot of damage; one estimate is that there were several dozen.
Then we had the hockey playoff riot in Vancouver. People were quick to say that it must have been troublemakers who came in from "out of town" because no one who lived in Vancouver would riot in their city and as we all know (people love that phrase when they want their opinion taken as fact) sports fans are decent, hardworking people. But as people were identified from cell phone pictures it became clear that a lot of clean cut, suburban kids were looting and breaking things (including, famously, an honours student who planned to go to medical school and whose father was a prominent lawyer).
Then there was the Halifax riot in the 1940's which had looting, burning buildings, and shots fired. And who were the rioters? The "best of society" - our brave and selfless men in the armed forces.
All to say that I won't venture an opinion about who the rioters were other than the fact that often it has more to do with opportunism than anything else. Stop the riots, then work on the cause.
What happened in Vancouver was pure criminal hooliganism where looting was the main objective. The criminal element had been stalking the outdoor assemblies for weeks anticipating the end of the Cup Final and came prepared to use the crowd to incite a riot and go on a looting rampage.
I think the lesson we learned in Toronto is that we can't allow full scale so-called peaceful public protest marches, because they turn out to be anything but peaceful. Such marches only provide cover for destructive malcontents. Keep the protests in one place.
===Good to see David Cameron calling for a round-up and crackdown and I see that there are public calls for the suspension of all social benefits for anyone found culpable in the looting.
On the topic here: to be honest i fully agree with the first link @PrinceKamalKahn gave:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
Thes youth aren't poor. They've got food, water, housing, clothes etc. But what they do not have is morals, discipline or a future.
One of the main problems in modern sociaty is the fact that nobody is willing to stand up to bad behaviour anymore. As I've found out personally, if you tell people to turn off their loud music, or stop harrassing others, all you get in return is aggression. Why? becouse they get away with it. The police won't do anything if you ask them to, and indeed you're more likely to get arrested yourself if you do something about it. Even I promised my girlfriend not to intervene anymore after I'd gotten into threatening situations, and was attacked by 5 youth out of nowhere (I got away pretty well with only bruses and one of them got arrested and was send to jail, at 17y/o).
So, behaving badly works, they get power they'd never get through any sort of career, and as they've got nothing else to do, harrassing is 'good fun'.
As so often these roits went quickly out of control exactly becouse of this culture: the police were far too slow and soft.
I, personally, am what you call liberal, which means I think that everybody should be given the same start. Good education, and all the human basic needs covered. But as you progress, this also means responsibility. Every man and woman should ALWAYS be held accountable for his/her deeds. That's where society has failed big time. But it isn't only the youth who lack these morals of responsibility. It's bankers too (who's paying for their risktaking? indeed!)politicians who stay on after corruption scandals, etc,captains of industry who let their companies go bust whilst taking the cash for themselves. That's all lack of responsibility, and the looters are right in one respect: If nobody's held accountable for their deeds, why should they?
@Darth, especially you, as a teacher, should hold these ideas high. I know these days society expects teachers to be lenient, but I don't agree at all. I'm very happy you don't either. Be tough on your students and you'll give them a future!
I must admit though that most of my classes consist of well educated and well raised kids. You say "Don't do that!", "Be silent!" or simply "No!", and you get away with that almost always. However, there's also always one or two out of all my groups with a lower tolerance to a teacher's dominion. Unfortunately these are groups with lower intellectual capacities. When I first started out as a teacher, I failed to understand what happened. I merely thought - wrongfully! - that their lower cognitive capacities also came with a lower upbringing, that I needed to educate them properly myself, drill them so to speak. I'm a fast learner though. You see, many of them once tried tougher courses and failed along the way. All of these 'failures' now form one group. They think of themselves as losers for not having been able to keep up with the rest and for having to settle for careers that in their views aren't quite as impressive as those of the ones who are destined to become lawyers, engineers and doctors. Part of my job therefore consists of reminding them that they haven't waisted their future, that they aren't losers, that anyone who wants to go for it can achieve wonderful things, despite not being proper university material. Even my chemistry courses can help them get there. By showering them with my enthusiasm and my belief in them, by stimulating them and reminding them that there are some wonderful jobs out there for anyone who's willing to persist, by showing them that I don't think of them as failures, I receive - in turn - a lot of friendship and respect. The friendship I don't need. I'm passed the point of thinking what so many young teachers think at the start of their career, that you have to make friends in school. You don't. You need to be a mentor, a guide, a coach, but not a friend. But earning their respect is good. It's what changes everything. And guess what. After they graduate, some of them keep sending me emails on a regular basis. A pupil I taught chemistry 4 years ago, who thought she'd be doomed to spend her life serving drinks in sleazy bars like her mother, recently graduated as a preschool teacher. She's very proud, and so am I. We worked on this thing for a whole year. She had failed chemistry the year before she came to my class. She had been a pain in the arse during September, constantly reminding me that I was going to have to fail her anyway so no point in trying and whatnot. We talked, we worked on it, it helped. Additional exercises, a bit of extra explaining here and there, and lots and lots of encouraging. Her scores for chemistry gradually went up. They were never great, but they went from poor to good. And that was enough. At the end of the school year, she thanked me with a box of chocolates. It was a cheap one and a small one, but it came from the heart and for her, those few euros did make a difference. And it came with a note saying "thank you for showing me that I'm not a failure and for making me believe that I can be a success". Those are the gifts I cherish more than all the bottles of expensive wine and champagne I receive as a pro forma gift from rich mums and dads whom I hardly ever spoke with and whose kids had no trouble at all passing. I'm not saying I don't appreciate those gifts, but they don't hold the same sentimental value. Anyway, she went her own way of course but as a believer that she could pass if she wanted to. She found extra encouragement in her love for kids and toddlers so a preschool teacher seemed the perfect choice. She will find a job, no doubt there, and next September, around the time when I return to school with bags full of chemistry and physics, she'll start playing an important role in the lives of very young kids, and she'll be great in what she does.
Of course if we could get all kids on the right track eventually, the London riots may not have taken on its current proportions. Unfortunately, we can't. Like I said before, we have lost a lot of our authority. Parents used to be angry with their kids when they came home with terrible grades and warnings for misconduct. Nowadays, more and more parents get angry with us for 'giving' their kids terrible grades and for being intolerant to misconduct. Those damned child psychologists - fools! - keep telling us that a kid needs not make any homework, kids need to play. That you can't be angry with them, you need to be patient and you need to talk, but punishment is never the solution. And if some of them fail to stay quiet during the lessons, you need to feed them pills, label them 'ADHD' and then 'endure' the mess they make for they are 'ill'... My God, in my days, not even 15 years ago, we were fed homework by the large numbers, playing was for the holidays. Be bad, be punished. We were punished in such a way that no physical pain was done, but you'd be spending your entire evening at home copying half a text book. Believe me, there were no second attempts. And ADHD was hardly understood. Troublemakers were drilled and they got there eventually, without those damned pills and without any sissy talk about how you have to endure their sudden outbursts of energy. And guess what: it helped. We're quiet, peace loving and hard working folks, me and my class mates from back in the day. Those riot shock us rather than amuse us. A harsher education, without taking on the form of terror and child abuse of course, has a higher chance for success.
No doubt some will call me out on this and say that I'm wrong. Everybody knows a case or two where harsh treatment in school turned out in failure and even drama. Even I know a case or two like that. The problem is that our too permissive methods of today, create failures by the dozens, not just two. We expose our weaknesses and these kids are no dummies. They know that you can't touch them. They know that if you say one wrong thing to them, they can get you into serious trouble. Because those friggin' child psychiatrists will choose their sides. So being a teacher isn't always a thankful job. I'm one of the luckier few, but some out there deal with potential delinquents every day. Instead of ruling a class, you're rendered at its mercy. Instead of teaching them something useful, they teach you modesty. THIS is the core problem in our educational system! THIS is where we fail. By thinking of punishment as something bad and by believing that dialogue resolves everything, they are never learned a lesson in good manners and modesty. Instead of treating 14 year olds as adults, we should demonstrate exactly what it means being one. We should show them only adults can seriously claim certain rights in life and even we, as adults, need to pay for those rights with a shipload of duties every day.
And if you read all of this, wow! ;;)
The thing is though they didn't get "worked up" about it. It was merely an excuse to "have a bit of fun" and take advantage of the situation. In the 2003 Iraq invasion I remember there was a walk out at my school where pupils were walking along the local roads en mass and the local residents were watching on with amazement. These were people aged from 12-15 years old and I don't buy that it was because of their sencere, concern about the events overseas - more an excuse to miss their Maths lessons. I remember one of my teachers made them, as punishment, all write essays about why they decided to walk out. I'm not sure what the final result was but it was certainly an effective way to address and confront the kids themselves.
I know that the situation then was a bit different to the riots a few days ago but the issue of "going along with the crowd" and "it being a bit of fun" is essentially the same one. These people at my school weren't poor people, rather fairly well off children raised in a white middle class environment. Whether we are poor, rich, black, white we are all capable of going along with a crowd. This isn't just an issue of education, upbringing etc but more about how we fundimentally behave as human beings.
People usually look for a reward in what they do, whether it be a physical reward (i.e. obtaining goods), an emotional reward (a buzz), a financial reward or a mixture of all three. This is human nature at its most primal and (sometimes) its most ugly. The fact that some of these rioters had respectable jobs and access to mobiles, Twitter etc shows this.
Infuriating comments here from some of the looters. Interesting that one of the lads states that he did it because his job app or c.v. was turned down by Comet so thats why he robbed it...well, the police will be sifting through the cctv and job apps and i would expect a knock on the door soon!!! lol
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16048571
I remember that when we moved from the middle of the country to the east, I went from a hugh school where they allready left us to part all day long to a classic, small school. Though I had to get used to the discipline, I felt it as a warm bath compared to the one I left behind. Why? Because, if we stayed between the clearly stated lines (rules) we got all the help and support we needed. Teachers tought us with passion, which is all you need as a pupil. Whereas in the old school all sorts of other factors, all made up by pupils more popular then others, made life horrible. If you weren't part of a group, or another group, or whatever reason, you'd go through hell and there'd be nobody to turn to, as nobody had any authority anymore.
As for the passion, it's sometimes hard. I've been teaching for only 7 years now but a lot has changed. I've expanded my responsibilities in our school and I've a girlfriend to look after. My grandmother's health is getting worse and since she's been like a mother to me all my life, I take it upon myself to cook for her, clean the house, do the dishes, get food and arrange the affairs of hospital visits and medicines. All of those are time consuming. When a kid in school then talks about some domestic trouble, knowing you can't really help but desiring someone who would just listen and show some empathy, you take of lot of that home. I know I shouldn't but it's hard not to. I mean, last year a 15 year old Muslim girl told me in absolute confidence that she got raped by her older brother and that her parents condoned it. She made me promise never to mention it to anyone, for her parents would beat her to death if they knew. How do you walk away from that? I couldn't. I lost sleep over it and decided not to just suck it up. I talked about this with the head master of the school, which we're expected to do by the way given the sensitive nature of the matter, and he managed to do something about it. In the end, she was glad I had broken my promise and that I had talked about it with someone with more wisdom than me. It was, however, such a delicate case, it could have easily been worse afterwards.
Sometimes, you feel like enough is enough. You tell yourself you get paid for teaching sciences, not for educating or helping the brats beyond that. But boy, when I saw the images of these riots, my mind started working again. September will come fast and sooner or later, someone will mention these riots. How do I responds to that? My opinion will be asked. What do I say? Tell them I have no opinion in the matter? Tell them I think these idiots should burn as they burnt London? Tell them I think these poor delinquents should be pardoned and allowed a clean slate for their future life? As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I can be pushed to where I desire sweet revenge more than anything else. That may not, however, be the correct lesson to teach... We, here in Belgium, are fairly close to the UK. We have a school trip to London every year! No doubt the matter will be brought up. I've given this thing a lot of thought in the past several days, yet I am still unable to find a good answer. If my kids, ages 15 - 18, ask how I feel about the riots, what is the right thing to say?
Hats off to you! and your collegues!
Well, if they start asking quiestions, why not answer in questions? How would they feel if someone came along and looted their home? They may say that's different, but it isn't. It's your lifehood that's beeing attacked. HOw would they feel if a mob turned against them while they were fencing off someone who tried to steal their mobile. I guess they'll get the point.
I heard a 16 year old boy on the news saying he did it for his little son (!) and he doesn't feel sorry. He's enjoying his plasma TV.
Thinking about it upbringing is probably a root cause and something which can effect the rich just as much as the poor. It certainly affects the way we behave as humans no doubt. I frequently talk to my 90 year old grandad about times gone by. Despite his advanced age he's as sharp as a tack and occasionally continues to make me feel small even at the age of 25 (nearly 26).
He's a firm believer in installing a little bit of fear in the classroom. Not go overboard but have a clear line between pupil and teacher. He always says to me that, in his day, if a child got cained, they would go home, tell their parents and probably receive a telling off. That would be the end of it.
I remember reading of an incident at my school where an angry parent HEADBUTTED the headteacher (a six foot former Rugby player so not exactly small).
That in itself represents one of the major problems. A lot of people don't seem to care about authority. The idea of parents actually PARENTING is sometimes seen as an old fashioned one.