DAF, AVTAK, LTK, DAD and SP - Why the last of each era is viewed upon with mixed feelings.

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    I don't know if 'a bad performance' is the reason why the last job was the last job.

    Connery said he'd come back for only one, no matter what happened. It's just a shame that after OHMSS, the series suffered from a steep quality decline because the likes of David Picker had failed to see the potential of OHMSS and instead seemed pleased enough to go for silliness, fat buffoons in the American police and nonsensical plots. So, did Connery give a bad performance in DAF? Not in my book. The film is what it is and Connery wasn't going to be told how to play Bond any more so everything just sort of happened under Hamilton's pathetic motto, "let's just have some fun."

    Moore was brilliant in AVTAK! AVTAK was not brilliant despite Moore.

    Dalton was great in LTK. LTK was great too. And LTK made money... overseas. And since our money isn't good enough for the UA hotshots, they pulled the plug. Dumbest decision ever.

    DAD is the Batman & Robin of the Bond franchise but I don't think Brosnan is necessarily bad in it. In fact, I must say I rather like what he does in the film, despite his own objections to all this nonsense. Brosnan really wanted a Casino Royale. And so did the producers. Only they had a younger Bond in mind if they were going back to the roots. I agree with that. But I wouldn't have minded seeing a fifth Brosnan film.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    Exactly my thoughts @DarthDimi :D
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    LTK - brillant.
    DAF - one of the most fun films I can think of.
    AVTAK - brillant (I'm probably alone in thinking this), truly the end of an era (the final Bond film with a mission that has no personal ties to MI6 or Bond).
    DAD - extremely loud and dumb, but a big load of fun if you switch your mind off.
  • edited April 2016 Posts: 337
    I liked AVTAK. I mean, Moore was definitely a fossil, but he was otherwise great and the rest of the film is generally quite good and entertaining.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I love AVTAK right up to the scene where Gogol makes a complaint about Zorin's act of murder regarding Bond. I mean, the PTS, the briefing, the entire segment in Zorin's castle/mansion or whatever it was seemed very Bondian. Then, we get a Toys "R" Us take on the Dirty Harry flavour from the Bond franchise.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited April 2016 Posts: 24,157
    @stun_harvesting, I'd say it's the other way around. I like Moore's rather cynical Bond in AVTAK, well acted as usual. Everything else is painful. Like someone flushed all IQ down the drain and then started production on this film. Moore's acting is the film's saving grace. Compare it to some other "acting" in AVTAK:

    [Pause]
    [More pause for absolutely no reason]
    "By the way..."
    [Another pause]
    "the preview is already in progress at the main stables."

    [Insert easy-going acting from Rog]

    [Looking at Bond's crotch]
    "No, no, those are the servants' quarters."
    [Making clumsy gesture with hands, high school level acting]
    "The stables are over here."
    [Looking at Bond's crotch again]
    "Let me escort you there."

    And people complain about John Terry. This is even worse! Also, the character's name is 'Scarpine". And he has a facial scar. Clever. Following the GF tradition perhaps? :)
  • I liked the scene where Gogol confronts Zorin.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    They did scrape the bottom of the barrel with their casting choices in AVTAK.
  • edited April 2016 Posts: 337
    @DarthDimi - Scarpine wasn't anything special, but I meant the main members of the cast. Not that Stacey Sutton was that great either, though. But Christopher Walken was brilliant.

    AVTAK worked for me. I came to the cinema for two hours of entertainment and that's what I got. I mean, I can tell that most of the film is recycled from older ones, but it's fun nonetheless.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I liked the scene where Gogol confronts Zorin.
    Oh I did, too! What I wanted to say was that was the last scene in the film that was great. Anything after that I don't care for and can do without.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @stun_harvesting, I'd say it's the other way around. I like Moore's rather cynical Bond in AVTAK, well acted as usual. Everything else is painful. Like someone flushed all IQ down the drain and then started production on this film. Moore's acting is the film's saving grace. Compare it to some other "acting" in AVTAK:

    [Pause]
    [More pause for absolutely no reason]
    "By the way..."
    [Another pause]
    "the preview is already in progress at the main stables."

    [Insert easy-going acting from Rog]

    [Looking at Bond's crotch]
    "No, no, those are the servants' quarters."
    [Making clumsy gesture with hands, high school level acting]
    "The stables are over here."
    [Looking at Bond's crotch again]
    "Let me escort you there."

    And people complain about John Terry. This is even worse! Also, the character's name is 'Scarpine". And he has a facial scar. Clever. Following the GF tradition perhaps? :)

    Patrick Bauchau happens to be a countryman of ours ;)

    I thought he did ok, didn't get a lot of stuff to do actually.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    Sure, sad-face Gogol, about to cry, with weeping voice, "That was regrettable." :-<

    Or Walken's sudden outburst, "You jeopardise mine!"

    Or even worse, that KGB guy with the funny way to say "biological freak". And then there's Dolph...

    Oh my no, this is one of worst and most redundant scenes in the entire film.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    The only thing that would ever prevent me from voting for @DarthDimi as President is his complaining about AVTAK. ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    @DaltonCraig007, you can't vote for me once I have achieved world domination. Democracy is insignificant next to the power of the Dark Side. ;-)
  • edited April 2016 Posts: 533
    So, "SPECTRE" is Craig's last movie? This is official? And as for how the last movie of each era is regarded . . . I couldn't care less. I still say that "SPECTRE" is ten times better than the travesty known as "SKYFALL". And the fact that most critics have a higher regard of the 2012 movie only justifies why I never pay attention to them.


    As for the other "last" movies, the only one I truly have a low opinion of is "DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER". But at least it's funny.

    'yo mama'

    Why is this one little line such a big deal to people, when DAD had plenty of bad dialogue? I didn't realize that an African-American slang word could make fans feel so uncomfortable. One word. Yet, they didn't mind all of the slang being thrown around in "LIVE AND LET DIE".
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    DRush76 wrote: »
    So, "SPECTRE" is Craig's last movie? This is official? And as for how the last movie of each era is regarded . . . I couldn't care less. I still say that "SPECTRE" is ten times better than the travesty known as "SKYFALL". And the fact that most critics have a higher regard of the 2012 movie only justifies why I never pay attention to them.


    As for the other "last" movies, the only one I truly have a low opinion of is "DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER". But at least it's funny.

    'yo mama'

    Why is this one little line such a big deal to people, when DAD had plenty of bad dialogue? I didn't realize that an African-American slang word could make fans feel so uncomfortable. One word. Yet, they didn't mind all of the slang being thrown around in "LIVE AND LET DIE".

    As for now SP is Craig's last, but that's not official.

    You are correct of course that SP is above the dreary SF in any department but SF sadly blinded people (50th Anniversary) through unbelievable hype and ridiculously good reviews.

    As for DAD's dialogue, I'll never get what people (here) have a problem with it. Jinx might not be the best Bond girl ever but as you said "yo mama" was ok in the context, and maybe it really does make some people uncomfortable for the wrong reasons.
  • Posts: 533
    No, she's not the "best" Bond leading lady. But I have never regarded her as one of the worst. She's like sixth or seventh on my list.
  • I did -AHEM- give a short laugh that I immediately tried to restrain when Jinx said that the first time I heard it. But I acknowledge that it is pretty dumb. Then again you are right most of the dialogue in DAD is just awful.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    edited April 2016 Posts: 1,130
    I think with the exception of Licence to Kill. the so many mixed reviews are because of the Over the top feel those films had.
    A view to kill was like another Moonraker and well these more outlandish feel gives a very polarizng results which some of the fans love and some others hate them.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Maybe one should turn it around. Maybe the causality is that the most badly regarded film is the actor's last. So maybe Connery saw the bad reviews (if there were any) and decided not to return for another film. The same applies to Brosnan. With regard to Moore: He was certainly simply too old in AVTAK. His age determines both, his retirement and AVTAK's bad reputation.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    GBF wrote: »
    Maybe one should turn it around. Maybe the causality is that the most badly regarded film is the actor's last. So maybe Connery saw the bad reviews (if there were any) and decided not to return for another film. The same applies to Brosnan. With regard to Moore: He was certainly simply too old in AVTAK. His age determines both, his retirement and AVTAK's bad reputation.

    Fine in theory.

    Except at the time DAD got reasonable reviews. At least no worse than other Bond films. It's only the fans who were disgusted and then with the coming of the Craig era that the critics put the boot in. I'm pretty sure Empire gave it 4* at the time but now it's down to 3 (still shockingly high for such a respected time). And Brosnan was then sacked and was gutted so to say he decided to move on is nowhere near the mark at all.

    I'm not sure about the original reviews for DAF (probably along the lines of 'Connery is back. Thank Christ. This is way better than the dreary last entry.') but they are irrelevant as Sean came back on a strict one picture deal and was never coming back even if the film had swept the Oscars.

  • Posts: 4,325
    Because generally each Bond starts with a taut, stripped down Bond and then as they make more money with each film the budget goes up and they start to become more ridiculous as they go on.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Because generally each Bond starts with a taut, stripped down Bond and then as they make more money with each film the budget goes up and they start to become more ridiculous as they go on.

    True. But not the case with LTK and SP is not yet the end of an era.
  • Posts: 4,325
    suavejmf wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Because generally each Bond starts with a taut, stripped down Bond and then as they make more money with each film the budget goes up and they start to become more ridiculous as they go on.

    True. But not the case with LTK and SP is not yet the end of an era.

    Yes, I'd say it's generally true. They of course did pull back from Moonraker to For Your Eyes Only. To be fair Dalton's era never got the chance to run it's course. Spectre is near the end of an era - can't see Craig doing more than one more.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    @tanaka123, yes, however after MR came a fairly stripped down Bond in FYEO, which many people agree is a step-up from MR. Budgets went down, do did the BO takes, but the film we're left with kicked off a whole new decade for Bond with memorable critical and / or BO successes such as OP and TLD.

    Also, I don't think SF and SP got more ridiculous than CR and QOS. I think the Craig films do a good job sticking by their initial mission statement which, in shorthand, means to deliver the anti-DAD. Budgets have been going through the roof lately but in SP for example, I don't think that money is used to buy us silly popcorn eye candy. I think the money is well spent. We tend to nit-pick here and call out "major plot issues" and such, but compared to almost everything we ever got before, I'd say these last four movies have been the most consistent in tone, "seriousness", "realism" and a bunch of other dangerous words the Craig bashers are no-doubt going to hate me for. ;-) My point is, the quality differences between the four individual Craig films are like the difference between a slightly overcooked and a slightly undercooked steak - they are still steaks though. The quality differences between the individual Brosnan films are like the difference between a delicious steak, some corned beef and the leftovers of last week's kebab. The quality differences between the individual Moore films are like the difference between steak, nachos and a used condom.
  • Maybe the audience is just tired of them, and when they stay in the role for long enough and get comfortable, they get more daring and usually take the film into the realm of outrageousness.
  • Posts: 4,325
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @tanaka123, yes, however after MR came a fairly stripped down Bond in FYEO, which many people agree is a step-up from MR. Budgets went down, do did the BO takes, but the film we're left with kicked off a whole new decade for Bond with memorable critical and / or BO successes such as OP and TLD.

    Also, I don't think SF and SP got more ridiculous than CR and QOS. I think the Craig films do a good job sticking by their initial mission statement which, in shorthand, means to deliver the anti-DAD. Budgets have been going through the roof lately but in SP for example, I don't think that money is used to buy us silly popcorn eye candy. I think the money is well spent. We tend to nit-pick here and call out "major plot issues" and such, but compared to almost everything we ever got before, I'd say these last four movies have been the most consistent in tone, "seriousness", "realism" and a bunch of other dangerous words the Craig bashers are no-doubt going to hate me for. ;-) My point is, the quality differences between the four individual Craig films are like the difference between a slightly overcooked and a slightly undercooked steak - they are still steaks though. The quality differences between the individual Brosnan films are like the difference between a delicious steak, some corned beef and the leftovers of last week's kebab. The quality differences between the individual Moore films are like the difference between steak, nachos and a used condom.

    I agree, I said generally.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    I'm not quite sure on that assessment. At least the used condom reminds of a blast, doesn't it? ;-)

    Anyway, I think AVTAK isn't Moore's worst, that's Moonraker by a space shot. That was over the top, had little to do with a spy story, the acting was bad, the villain too obvious etc. etc. It's more Austin Powers then Goldmember.

    DAf wasn't good, but that has more to do with the setting in which it was made, it was a hotchpotch safe the day film. And all in all it wasn't even his last film, that's NSNA.

    Is LTK worse then TLD? I don't know. I prefer the latter, but LTK is certainly not bad and I don't think it's worse. I just prefer the TLD story. LTK wasn't made like it was his last, that only came with the lawsuits.

    DAD is the only obvious one imo. ANd that is largely due to bad script writing and a director who lost his mind and was making the new CR '67. Lee Tamahori just misiterpreted Brosnan's wish.

    I also don't understand the hatred for SF and SP. I think they're both very good films. They can't all be as refreshing as CR was. It's just not possible. Saw both again on recent long haul flights, and they take you to a different world, as films should.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Despite some gripes I love all these films.
  • Posts: 108
    Because we know they are the last outings of that actor - in hindsight. Logically, you would expect an actor to go out with a bang in his last outing.

    However, only 2 of the 5 mentioned in the original question were known to be last outings at the moment they were released. So the following question also pops up:

    Were those mixed feelings present at the time of release as well?
    And were they different for LTK and DAD, than for DAF and AVTAK?
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