The Living Daylights vs. Licence to Kill

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    LTK is a shamefully underrated Bond movie and I'd say its better than TLD simply on entertainment value alone. By the end of the film and realising that Dalton was to never return, its damn near heart breaking. However, the biggest wtf? Moment for me was when Lupe charged into the hotel where pam and q were and was trying to get them to help Bond; Lupe's line of, "if anything happened to him, I don't know what I'd do. You see, I love him so much"...
    Every time I watch that scene I burst out laughing. The absurdity of Lupe coming off as that madly in love with Bond after two brief 10 second encounters and pretty much a one night stand, her level of emotion for Bond is just so jarring.

    Anyway, both Lupe and Pam were Hhhhhott, a considerable improvement over the yawn casting of D'abo.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    LTK is a shamefully underrated Bond movie and I'd say its better than TLD simply on entertainment value alone. By the end of the film and realising that Dalton was to never return, its damn near heart breaking. However, the biggest wtf? Moment for me was when Lupe charged into the hotel where pam and q were and was trying to get them to help Bond; Lupe's line of, "if anything happened to him, I don't know what I'd do. You see, I love him so much"...
    Every time I watch that scene I burst out laughing. The absurdity of Lupe coming off as that madly in love with Bond after two brief 10 second encounters and pretty much a one night stand, her level of emotion for Bond is just so jarring.

    Anyway, both Lupe and Pam were Hhhhhott, a considerable improvement over the yawn casting of D'abo.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Never mind the double posts, I get that often enough

    Just going back, said it before maybe that when I went to see Daltons second outing way back in '89, it was surprising to see the difference in the Bonds that had gone before it, from a usual quiet, phlegmatic tone we were introduced to a much darker edge and instances unheard of in the franchise up to then, Bond had suddenly jumped from a Parental Guidance to a '15' certificate and I was eager to see what they had put together at the time.

    Dalton, 42 at the time of release, still looked the part more than Moore ever did especially in his later releases and his hard edged reality was a welcome relief from the campiness of what had gone before, still think the ending at the Sanchez house was lame, the tanker truck chase gets a bit dull the 50th time you see it but it's always worth the wait to see Robert Davi go up in flames near the end.

    Real shame that the franchise was delayed for so long thereafter and Dalton never was able to play the part again, in hindsight even if he had chosen to get involved with Goldeneye I think he would of looked slightly out of place and Brosnan was more tailored for the role.
  • @Baltimore_007 Dalton was actuallty 45 at the time. Some sources say 43. And don't forget to vote on your favorite guys.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I was and still am always impressed when I see Dalton in his sniper gear. He looks like a genuine assassin. The pulled up collar, the stone look on his face and him equipping the rifle, ready for action. I'd like to see more stuff like that, as in Bond on a mission and actually executing a clean, silent kill.
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 370
    LTK is a shamefully underrated Bond movie and I'd say its better than TLD simply on entertainment value alone. By the end of the film and realising that Dalton was to never return, its damn near heart breaking. However, the biggest wtf? Moment for me was when Lupe charged into the hotel where pam and q were and was trying to get them to help Bond; Lupe's line of, "if anything happened to him, I don't know what I'd do. You see, I love him so much"...
    Every time I watch that scene I burst out laughing. The absurdity of Lupe coming off as that madly in love with Bond after two brief 10 second encounters and pretty much a one night stand, her level of emotion for Bond is just so jarring.

    Anyway, both Lupe and Pam were Hhhhhott, a considerable improvement over the yawn casting of D'abo.
    I always read that scene as Lupe pretending that she loved Bond as a way of leaving Sanchez. At the end of the movie you can see she clearly doesn't when she seems happy to hook up with el Presidente!
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Yeah, Lupe's affections will go to anyone it seems. At the start of the film, she's in bed with another man, then back with Sanchez (against her will), then with Bond and then by the end of the film she wants to be with Bond but when Bond blows her off and suggests El Presidente she's forgotten all about Bond. Still, Lupe's decleration of her love for Bond makes me cringe to the point all I can do is laugh.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    Lupe is not a bad character at all. She's the bored mistress, somewhat insecure and most likely in Sanchez' possession since she was still very young. Sanchez dominates her. Bond shows a different kind of passion. She's attracted to that. He might offer her a way out although she'll soon discover there's a lot she doesn't want to abandon. In the end, Bond was just another crush; he might have been a real man but she's too spoiled to leave the life of wealth behind. She'll happily settle for El Presidente.

    But yes, the "I love him so much" line was a spine chiller.


  • But yes, the "I love him so much" line was a spine chiller.
    But it was delivered in exactly the way that it was supposed to be. I remember someone on alt.fan.james-bond used to continually use it as evidence that Talisa Soto was a terrible actress, but the idea was that *Lupe* was the terrible actress. I laugh with the film at that point, not at it.

  • Posts: 1,894
    TLD is one of my favourite films. I consider it - along with FRWL and FYEO - to be part of the Cold War trilogy, the three films in the franchise that really emphasised Bond as a spy.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    I would add OP to the best Cold War outings (FRWL, FYEO, TLD).
  • Posts: 1,894
    OP is not in the same category as FRWL, FYEO and TLD. It doesn't really focus on the spying aspects; instead, it concentrates on the 'kooky' aspects of Indian culture.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited August 2011 Posts: 15,713
    OP is not in the same category as FRWL, FYEO and TLD. It doesn't really focus on the spying aspects; instead, it concentrates on the 'kooky' aspects of Indian culture.
    Well I have a different opinion on OP - IMO it's part of the ultimate Cold War thrillers with FRWL, FYEO and TLD. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
  • edited August 2011 Posts: 1,894
    Don;t get me wrong - I think Orlov's plot to force a withdrawal of NATO forces is absolutely brilliant. But all the stuff in India is unnecessary. Orlov's scheme should have been the focus of the whole thing, rather than a sub-plot.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited August 2011 Posts: 13,355
    Don;t get me wrong - I think Orlov's plot to force a withdrawal of NATO forces is absolutely brilliant. But all the stuff in India is unnecessary. Orlov's scheme should have been the focus of the whole thing, rather than a sub-plot.
    I've always thought this to be Octopussy's main problem. It's as if for some reason India is forced into the film and it isn't needed. The fantastic Cold War plot is interesting enough by itself. India is just padding. To go even further off topic I could see this happen with Bond 23.

    Anyway, back to The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    For some reason this popular Bond thread has languished in General Discussions. So I have moved it to Bond Movies..where it belongs. :-D
  • TLD first - top Bond film and should be seen as a classic.

    LTK - top Bond film and should be seen as the blueprint for what DC and his band of merry men have copied so far. DC has aped TD's Bond since he took on the mantle.

    Bring on a DC original in Bond 23 please.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    Sorry to bring up an old thread but I wanted to see how voting turned out. So I guess after all this time it's safe to say TLD wins the poll. I had a feeling it would but Im still happy to see LTK got so much support. 41% isn't bad. I though it might be a squash. Time has been suprisingly good to LTK, considering how 80s it was. Maybe in 10 years it'll grow even more popular.
  • was there an overall winner, maybe I missed something amid all the excitement

    I was under the impression from last we looked that License To Kill was ahead in this, and now lo and behold Daylights got the vote, I would of voted in favor of Daylights, let's face it, both are Daltons work but his debut film for me will always be his best, it's admittedy a bit dull along the way especially when he's in central Europe, but livens up when Bond gets to Afghanistan and it has real Fleming character to it, LTK goes a bit haywire with sharks, exploding heads, fork lift murders and Bond sniffing around a cocaine factory without getting any ill effects, and there's only Mexico and Florida in the way of locations, Caroline Bliss gets about eight seconds in her second Moneypenny appearance although Q has a wider scope than usual to get involved in the actions bits, Robert Davi was menacing enough and believable as the nasty Sanchez, but all told it's hardly a classic Bond and was a relative failure at the box office in Summer 1989, and it's a pity Dalton left on this note and wasn't involved again thereafter due to legal disputes and all that went on until Goldeneye came about etc

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Ahh.... TLD, yes. :)
  • Posts: 278
    One thing certain, both films are better than anything (with the exception of CR) since and if every new Bond film were as good as both of these films then I for one would never have a problem with the quality of the films.
    I've actually watched both of these films over the last couple of weeks and am reminded how superb they are.
    In my eyes Bond films historically have always worked better when they have a European focus.
    TLD is as people have mentioned probably the last of the real traditional Bonds and John Barry's score magnificent.
    LTK I've always had a soft spot for. Dramatically different from what went before and all pulled together by a exceptional performances from both Dalton and Davi.
    LTK is my choice (even considering my European comment abve).
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 12,837
    very hard choice. 2 great films from the best bond of all time. TLD will always be special to me because its the first bond film I ever saw, but I like LTK better. The villian is great, the plot is great, the girl is great, the locations are great, the gadgets are great, and dalton is at his best. I do like TLD as well though, I just prefer LTK because of the story and the awesome stunts.

    Dalton is the best bond, and LTK is the best film (although brosnan and TWINE come close), nuff said.
  • Posts: 278
    very hard choice. 2 great films from the best bond of all time. TLD will always be special to me because its the first bond film I ever saw, but I like LTK better. The villian is great, the plot is great, the girl is great, the locations are great, the gadgets are great, and dalton is at his best. I do like TLD as well though, I just prefer LTK because of the story and the awesome stunts.

    Dalton is the best bond, and LTK is the best film (although brosnan and TWINE come close), nuff said.

    You had me believing everything right up until the quote about TWINE :)
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 12,837
    dchantry wrote:
    very hard choice. 2 great films from the best bond of all time. TLD will always be special to me because its the first bond film I ever saw, but I like LTK better. The villian is great, the plot is great, the girl is great, the locations are great, the gadgets are great, and dalton is at his best. I do like TLD as well though, I just prefer LTK because of the story and the awesome stunts.

    Dalton is the best bond, and LTK is the best film (although brosnan and TWINE come close), nuff said.

    You had me believing everything right up until the quote about TWINE :)

    TWINE is great but nothing can beat dalton and LTK.
  • Posts: 4,762
    I watched both of these just last week, and I must say that License to Kill takes the cake for me. Dalton's 007 is even more confident than TLD, and he plays his dark side stronger than he did in TLD. Yes, I know that the script called for that, but TLD had its share of dark moments, and I think that Dalton did himself one better in those scenes in LTK. Also, the villains are better in LTK, and I think that most people agree with me on that note. As for the action, both have great fun to offer, but TLD wins with the action. However, I still prefer LTK for other reasons beyond action, like Dalton's performance, the plot, and characters.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Hmm difficult one. Originally I'd have said LTK but I think Daylights has a more "Bondian" feel to it despite the fairly weak baddies.
  • Posts: 562
    LTK takes the cake here. I love both, but LTK has a certain quality to it that I can't quite put words to, and it just edges out TLD.
  • LTK definitely is more towards my favor, but that's probably because Talisa Soto and Carey Lowell is the best Bond Girl Duo in the franchise :P
  • Posts: 11,189
    "I love James so much"

    Urgh ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    Hard to decide - TLD is the most fun film, with a more relaxed Dalton... but LTK features a rather cracking duo between Bond and Q in the field...
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