The Living Daylights vs. Licence to Kill

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  • edited January 2013 Posts: 553
    Just voted Licence To Kill. I am not entirely sure that TLD isn't the better film and it does strike me as the more loved amongst the fans. For this reason, and the fact that I've now read a bit of Fleming, I am always quite excited when I put on Daylights. I love the opening section of the film and the whole introduction to Kara. Then, however, I always start getting bored. Individual scenes are wonderful, but I cannot quite get into Dalton in that film, I can't warm to Kara and I really don't like the second half of the film.

    LTK on the other hand IS Miami Vice light. Lupe is crap and the score is awful. I love it though. Dalton gives possibly the best performance of the entire series in that film for me. I can't get his performance out of my head for days after seeing it. The villain is great, the plot is good, the leading lady is terrific - and has really grown on me as I have got older. The action is excellent. The film looks great on blu ray. In summary, if you can connect with Daylights it us probably the better film. For me though, it is one of the more overrated entries, whereas LTK just improves every time for me, and is now in my top five.
  • Posts: 1,386
    TLD for me, although I did read that Lee Van Cleef was on the short list of names considered for the role of Brad Whitaker and that would have elevated the movie to a whole other level in my eyes.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Easily TLD since it's my second favourite Bond film. it is very well made. LTK is not bad but actually it never felt like a Bond film to me, rather like a Lethal Weapon film or Miami Vice. I know Bond films have always adapted elements of their time and in the late 80s these drug dealing and undercover cop films were popular. Just not my cup of tee. But since I like Dalton as Bond I can still enjoy it.
  • Posts: 7,431
    TLD is second on my list too! Squeezed in between OHMSS and CR. LTK is next and quite superb too, but TLD is sensational, great scenes one after another. Yes the Afghanistan sequence, things slow down, but all Bond movies have similar scenes, so it never spoils my enjoyment, and Dalton is brilliant! Ian Flemings 007 torn from the pages!
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited February 2016 Posts: 1,984
    I recently had TLD above LTK, but well, breaking it down into the various elements, I have to give it to LTK. TLD is definitely more fluid and sustained in the first half, but it loses so much steam once it gets to Afghanistan that I generally distract myself in other ways during that part. LTK is actually at its strongest in its last quarter.

    TLD definitely has a better score and pre-title, and none of the action is as cringeworthy as the bar brawl in LTK. Otherwise, however, LTK is superior in action, particularly the consistently amazing stunts (the tanker chase finale is amazing, IMO).

    In the end, they both have their strengths and faults, but the biggest difference is that Sanchez is so much better a villain than Whitaker (or Koskov), and Dario is also better than Necros. My biggest complaint with TLD would have to be the utterly unimpressive villains, whereas Sanchez sells himself as a truly intimidating villain in every scene. The way he meets his end is also so much better (and so much more satisfying) than Whitaker being crushed by the statue.
  • For me, TLD is the definite winner. Some may cry foul, saying that clearly the villain of LTK is much better than TLD. True, but this is probably the only thing that comes to mind as a point in LTK's favour when comparing the two.

    The most major point is that the general tone and atmosphere of TLD is much more appealing. Even Dalton preferred TLD over LTK - he said that there was simply no class, no elegance in LTK. Most people would agree with that. With LTK... its intention is admirable, but it goes way overboard. The exploding head is gratuitous and unnecessary, as are a few other sequences. I would argue that LTK is the first of the truly 'American' Bond film. There is none of that classic 'British air' that really made the other films.

    If I remember correctly, the length of both films are similar. But the difference is that LTK is a revenge film, and for a revenge film it goes far too long. There is an emphasis on the narrative on the film, but that makes it feel weighed down in some parts. Some people seem to have problems with TLD's pacing, but I'd say that LTK's problems are more flagrant.

    In terms of girls, TLD wins, no contest. LTK's Pam Bouvier can't act and ends up being an incessant nagger. Has her good moments, but overall she's not a good girl, and neither is Lupe, who can't act either. Kara meanwhile acts overall much better and has clear chemistry with Dalton's Bond. They have what I think is the best romantic arc of the series. She is in the only Bond film where there is truly just one Bond girl, and her relationship goes through real ups and downs. From when Bond shot the gun out of her hand, to their first meeting and comical 'why didn't you learn the violin?!' moment, to the Ferris wheel and then to that particularly underrated scene where she sneaks chloral hydrate into Bond's drink and he explains everything. So basically, far better than anything in LTK.

    I could go into action, but I'd say overall they are about even - LTK's final tanker chase is good conceptually but a bit overrated since it goes on far too long. The suspenseful Hercules fight in TLD was far better, and, I'd argue, still the best action scene in the series yet.

    It goes to TLD without question (a 4 on my list), though LTK isn't bad (12 on mine).
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    For me, TLD is the definite winner. Some may cry foul, saying that clearly the villain of LTK is much better than TLD. True, but this is probably the only thing that comes to mind as a point in LTK's favour when comparing the two.

    The most major point is that the general tone and atmosphere of TLD is much more appealing. Even Dalton preferred TLD over LTK - he said that there was simply no class, no elegance in LTK. Most people would agree with that. With LTK... its intention is admirable, but it goes way overboard. The exploding head is gratuitous and unnecessary, as are a few other sequences. I would argue that LTK is the first of the truly 'American' Bond film. There is none of that classic 'British air' that really made the other films.

    ...

    Agreed. If LTK had a Barry score I might view it differently. The other difference is that the wardrobe and sets look cheaper/worse in LTK.

    Other than that, the action is great in both, I love the "spy" scenes in TLD (Bond and Saunders, Pushkin on his knees, Woman was a sniper scene).

    They are both touted as serious films but both suffer from Glen's signature humour which ruins the seriousness, the direction is pedestrian.

    I am fond of both....TLD is number one whereas LTK is middle rank only because of the score, and it lacks the Bond flavour
  • @w2bond
    I do think that LTK has a very 'cheap' feeling to it, but I do think that if it is any film it is somewhat more appropriate in a 'down-to-earth' Bond film like LTK.

    Sometimes I wonder if Dalton's films would have been received better if they had had a more serious and appropriate director...

    And yes the spy scenes are great in TLD. I think it's quite shocking how there isn't quite so many traditionally 'spy' scenes in Bond, considering that it's a spy series. They sort of vanished after FRWL... And I think Brosnan's films were more like big action blockbusters than spy movies. And I'm not saying one style is better than the other, just that it's odd that there isn't as much spying in a spy series.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    If you actually like the villains, which I do, one could argue that TLD is the perfect Bond film. It mixes the Fleming moments from the books with the escapist fun from the films.

    It is a Cold War spy adventure without losing typical Bond film traits such as the Aston Martin. And due to its monogamous policy and the chemistry between its protagonists, it's also quite romantic too.

    As for LTK, it is a stellar Bond film too. Not in the same way as TLD though. However, there are so many moments that scream Ian Fleming in this film. Furthermore, we get emotionally involved in this one. I'd say Dalton's expression after the spectacular tanker truck chase is the best acting we've ever seen in a Bond film.

    I just cannot pick a favourite as they both are magnificent. One day LTK is my top choice, another day it's TLD.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    @IncompetentHenchman It's also the lack of Ken Adam, plus Glen's uninspiring direction, and also that the film plots are more down to earth. All of his films don't look as exotic as those before them. Having said that, the 80's is my fav decade, the films are very well paced.

    Dalton would definitely have been more comfortable with a different director, I believe the two had clashes on set.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    If you actually like the villains, which I do, one could argue that TLD is the perfect Bond film. It mixes the Fleming moments from the books with the escapist fun from the films.

    It is a Cold War spy adventure without losing typical Bond film traits such as the Aston Martin

    @GoldenGun That's exactly why TLD is number 1 for me. It's not perfect but has a good balance of elements.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Samuel001 wrote: »
    I've always prefered Licence To Kill though both are great and two of the only true post 60's classics in my opinion.

    Yes. TD Bond films are the best of the 80's era. LTK is better. Closer to Fleming with a stronger cast, especially the villain.

  • Posts: 4,325
    I'd say The Living Daylights but I have changed my mind on this many times. TLD is a great traditional Bond film with a harder edged Bond. Let down by unimaginative villains. LTK is a great portrayal of Bond but loses some of that trad Bond feel, it feels quite like an American actioner at times, and whilst gains a more Bondian feel in Dalton's performance at the same time seems to lose a lot of Bondian feeling at the same time.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    While I do like Georgi Koskov and its actor Jeroen Krabbe, I just think he didn't act but "acted", if you know what I mean, like he was parodying someone or escaped straight out of a Monty Python sketch. It's strange because I've seen Krabbe's other works (most recent I've seen him in was Transporter 3), he was just a normal actor with normal behaviour. Don't know what was the fuss about the way they wanted Koskov to behave.

    Oh, my favourite Dalton Bond film? Simple. The Living Daylights.
  • I've probably posted this on this thread, but my vote is for TLD and I think it's better by a decent margin as well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I haven't watched TLD in a while, but every time I watch LTK it improves for me.

    TLD continues to disappoint in the latter half where it becomes an explosion ridden action fest (similar to DAD but with better special effects). The mystery/suspense/thriller aspects of the earlier half are top notch and I think they should have kept that tone throughout and tried to end it without the large set pieces at the base.

    So my vote goes to LTK for consistency of tone, despite its cheap production values.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames We should note that the Aghanistan base attack in TLD is the last time such climax happened in a Bond film. Since then we've only had Bond + the main Bond girl attacking the base instead Bond assisted by a small allied army.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @bondjames We should note that the Aghanistan base attack in TLD is the last time such climax happened in a Bond film. Since then we've only had Bond + the main Bond girl attacking the base instead Bond assisted by a small allied army.
    That is a very good point @DaltonCraig007. I didn't think about that. Perhaps they felt it was an overused remnant of the Connery/Lazenby/Moore days that they are trying to wean themselves off of.
  • Posts: 4,325
    bondjames wrote: »
    @bondjames We should note that the Aghanistan base attack in TLD is the last time such climax happened in a Bond film. Since then we've only had Bond + the main Bond girl attacking the base instead Bond assisted by a small allied army.
    That is a very good point @DaltonCraig007. I didn't think about that. Perhaps they felt it was an overused remnant of the Connery/Lazenby/Moore days that they are trying to wean themselves off of.

    That kind of ending occurs in Goldfinger, Thunderball, You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds Are Forever, The Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker, Octopussy, The Living Daylights
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I haven't watched TLD in a while, but every time I watch LTK it improves for me.

    TLD continues to disappoint in the latter half where it becomes an explosion ridden action fest (similar to DAD but with better special effects). The mystery/suspense/thriller aspects of the earlier half are top notch and I think they should have kept that tone throughout and tried to end it without the large set pieces at the base.

    So my vote goes to LTK for consistency of tone, despite its cheap production values.

    Maybe I'm just juvenile, but I like the bombastic finale. Plus, that fight on the plane is to die for.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I haven't watched TLD in a while, but every time I watch LTK it improves for me.

    TLD continues to disappoint in the latter half where it becomes an explosion ridden action fest (similar to DAD but with better special effects). The mystery/suspense/thriller aspects of the earlier half are top notch and I think they should have kept that tone throughout and tried to end it without the large set pieces at the base.

    So my vote goes to LTK for consistency of tone, despite its cheap production values.

    Maybe I'm just juvenile, but I like the bombastic finale. Plus, that fight on the plane is to die for.
    Don't get me wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with it objectively speaking. I just kind of tune out during it for some reason until the plane fight which is indeed great. I think it's because of the open setting. There's just so much going on, but it's like an episode of an adventure film like Sahara or Aladdin or something.

    It lacks, to me at least, the suspense that could have come from a more close quarters setting like the classic Adam sets.

    I'm always relieved when we get back to the real finale at Whittaker's lair, which has more of a suspenseful feel.
  • JohnHammond73JohnHammond73 Lancashire, UK
    Posts: 4,151
    Two completely different movies; on the one hand we have The Living Daylights which, in my own opinion, comes across as a proper Bond movie, traditional and with a tough, gritty Bond. Licence To Kill on the other hand, to me, feels more like a generic action thriller that we saw made in the 80's but, again, with that edge that Dalton gave to Bond.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    *Bump*

    While Licence To Kill is a fantastic film, it's edged out by a small margin by The Living Daylights, IMO. Unfortunately, while Licence To Kill has a Flemingesque narrative (and a number of Fleming references), a relationship between Bond and the villain which is up there with that of Bond and Goldfinger or Largo, Sanchez himself is one of the best villains of the franchise and another brilliant portrayal by Dalton, there are a couple of elements which means it falls behind it's better brother, IMO. While Michael Kamen's score is responsible for one of the best GB sequences in the series, John Barry's non-existence throughout the film is definitely felt. I've always disliked the fact that Q comes to assist Bond in his mission and the moment of him wearing a fake moustache feels completely against in contrast to the tone of the film. Lupe and Truman-Lodge feel like seriously underutilised characters that don't add any value to the film. The Living Daylights right from the start feels like a classic Bond film from start to finish. John Barry's swansong is unequivocally one of his best behind On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Thunderball. The opening sequence straight out of Fleming and utilising that as the anchor for the rest of the film is genius. The relationship between Kara and Bond is the most believable since Bond and Tracy or Bond and Domino.

    The weakest link of The Living Daylights and where Licence To Kill is superior is in it's villains. I love the relationship between Bond and Sanchez and how Bond manipulates him to get closer to the heart of his operation and take out his colleagues. Sanchez himself has to be of one the best foes of the series, IMO. He's seriously menacing and much like the film grounded in reality. Brad Whittaker, Koskov and Necros don't really provide much menace, although I do appreciate the way in which Koskov portrays this helpless victim when the reality is quite the opposite. While a lot of fans make point that when Daylights hits the desert it drags, I tend to disagree and personally love the finale of the film. While Kill's ending of Bond lighting Sanchez on fire with the lighter that Leiter (pun intended) gave him has to go down as one of the most brutal deaths in the series, the truck chase leading up to that moment for me is inferior to that of Daylights and the ultimate demise of Necros. The finale of both films is great, but that of Daylights always warms my heart with Bond reuniting with Kara. In summary The Living Daylights feels more Bondesque and while John Barry's score is a large part of this equation, it's summation of small elements that ultimately make it the better film, IMO.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    These were side by side for me for a long time, with TLD perhaps slightly ahead more often than vice versa.

    Lately I vastly prefer LTK, as I find it engaging throughout whereas TLD more or less falls apart after the excellent opening. The pts and sniper scene in TLD is probably better than anything in LTK, but all of LTK is better than the rest of TLD, a few scenes here and there exempted.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    I'll go with TLD. However, LTK has grown on me over the years. Once Bond and Pam reach Isthmus City, it really gets going. TLD has a more classic feel to it, but the Glen films are so bipolar for me in terms of flow. For example, outside of Octopussy, I only truly enjoy half of a film but never in its entirety. I'll always rank the 80s as my least favorite decade for the films and most of the films are in my bottom 5 in overall rankings.
  • Posts: 7,431
    As a diehard Dalton fan, i always found it difficult to pick a favourite. Love the fact they are different beasts, but equally brilliant! Feel if Dalton had done a third, it would have been different again!
    Currently i lean towards LTK, but neither film will leave my top three! Just had another great viewing of TLD today!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited May 2020 Posts: 7,136
    Quite right @Mathis1! My preference has always been shifting too. But one thing stays the same: the winner of this duel is my favourite Bond film. Currently it's LTK.

    Something else I just thought of: OP-GE is probably my favourite 5-in-a-row in this franchise. Still though, while I have soft spots for OP and AVTAK, TLD is so bloody good it still feels like a huge step up when watching them chronologically. Same goes for GE, I love that film, but after LTK it always feels like a small step down.

    In conclusion, TLD and LTK are phenomenal the both of them. This wil always remain the toughest of choices.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Something else I just thought of: OP-GE is probably my favourite 5-in-a-row in this franchise. Still though, while I have soft spots for OP and AVTAK, TLD is so bloody good it still feels like a huge step up when watching them chronologically. Same goes for GE, I love that film, but after LTK it always feels like a small step down.

    Me Too! TLD and OP in 1st and 2nd, and GE comfortably within the top 7 on my latest bondathon
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I prefer LTK even tho I love TLD too. Fresher from basically every standpoint, more violent, with better villains, better girls and cooler settings. TLD has a better Dalton and a far better score.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Octopussy wrote: »
    The Living Daylights right from the start feels like a classic Bond film from start to finish. John Barry's swansong is unequivocally one of his best behind On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Thunderball. The opening sequence straight out of Fleming and utilising that as the anchor for the rest of the film is genius. The relationship between Kara and Bond is the most believable since Bond and Tracy or Bond and Domino.

    Agreed. I'd say Bond and Kara have the most believable Bond/Bond girl relationship in the series.
    Octopussy wrote: »
    The weakest link of The Living Daylights and where Licence To Kill is superior is in it's villains. I love the relationship between Bond and Sanchez and how Bond manipulates him to get closer to the heart of his operation and take out his colleagues. Sanchez himself has to be of one the best foes of the series, IMO. He's seriously menacing and much like the film grounded in reality.

    In retrospect, I'm glad it worked out this way since it allows TLD and LTK to complement each other well as Dalton's only 002 Bond films. TLD provided Dalton's Bond with his FRWL/OHMSS/CR type romantic relationship with the Bond girl while LTK provided Dalton's Bond with his GF/TMWTGG/GE type antagonistic adversarial relationship with the Bond villain.
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Brad Whittaker, Koskov and Necros don't really provide much menace, although I do appreciate the way in which Koskov portrays this helpless victim when the reality is quite the opposite.

    Mostly agree although I do think Necros is the most menacing of the series' Red Grant clones.
    Octopussy wrote: »
    While a lot of fans make point that when Daylights hits the desert it drags, I tend to disagree and personally love the finale of the film. While Kill's ending of Bond lighting Sanchez on fire with the lighter that Leiter (pun intended) gave him has to go down as one of the most brutal deaths in the series, the truck chase leading up to that moment for me is inferior to that of Daylights and the ultimate demise of Necros. The finale of both films is great, but that of Daylights always warms my heart with Bond reuniting with Kara. In summary The Living Daylights feels more Bondesque and while John Barry's score is a large part of this equation, it's summation of small elements that ultimately make it the better film, IMO.

    Agreed. TLD remains my favorite post-1960s Bond film.

  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    It appears we share the same passions, @PrinceKamalKhan.
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