The case for and against... Martin Campbell

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'll have to say though, even though he's not much of a star, Ray Stevenson has the same qualities Connery has imho. The man should definitely have been Bond...

    He played my favorite character on HBO's 'Rome'.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Name another actor who can be as forceful a presence as Connery??? I can't.

    Burt Lancaster? Robert Mitchum? Kirk Douglas?

    Whether any of them match Connery in the looks department is debatable perhaps.

    I don't think any of these guys had the dark sauveness of Connery combined with the perceived toughness. They're just tough. I have never seen a combination like he brought in his younger days (and even later, in films like the Rock). He was just so natural at projecting refined, yet definite manliness. He didn't have to even say anything......he also looked it and he walked it

    Yes but the question was about a forceful presence.

    Right, but this started when discussing Craig's behaviour with Vesper and Lisbeth. In both those cases, some refinement is called for (for Vesper because she probably wouldn't react well to someone who was just tough, and for Lisbeth because she certainly wasn't going to take any sh>> from some tough guy). I think Connery could have pulled off the Vesper train thing with ease, but not Blomkvist with Lisbeth (too much machismo).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited September 2015 Posts: 15,718
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Name another actor who can be as forceful a presence as Connery??? I can't.

    Burt Lancaster? Robert Mitchum? Kirk Douglas?

    Whether any of them match Connery in the looks department is debatable perhaps.

    I don't think any of these guys had the dark sauveness of Connery combined with the perceived toughness. They're just tough. I have never seen a combination like he brought in his younger days (and even later, in films like the Rock). He was just so natural at projecting refined, yet definite manliness. He didn't have to even say anything......he also looked it and he walked it

    Yes but the question was about a forceful presence.

    Right, but this started when discussing Craig's behaviour with Vesper and Lisbeth. In both those cases, some refinement is called for (for Vesper because she probably wouldn't react well to someone who was just tough, and for Lisbeth because she certainly wasn't going to take any sh>> from some tough guy). I think Connery could have pulled off the Vesper train thing with ease, but not Blomkvist with Lisbeth (too much machismo).

    If Connery had been in CR the way it was made in 2006, I'm pretty sure he would have slapped Dench's M the moment she started her psychological nonsense.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2015 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'll have to say though, even though he's not much of a star, Ray Stevenson has the same qualities Connery has imho. The man should definitely have been Bond...

    He played my favorite character on HBO's 'Rome'.

    Yes, he was great in that and he was also a standout in Dexter Season 7. It looks like he will bring all his charisma to the new Transporter film as well (the lead in that film has zero charisma imho, based on the trailers).
    If Connery had been in CR the way it was made in 2006, I'm pretty sure he would have slapped Dench's M the moment she started her psychological nonsense.

    True. He wouldn't have taken crap from her for sure..
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Name another actor who can be as forceful a presence as Connery??? I can't.

    Burt Lancaster? Robert Mitchum? Kirk Douglas?

    Whether any of them match Connery in the looks department is debatable perhaps.

    I don't think any of these guys had the dark sauveness of Connery combined with the perceived toughness. They're just tough. I have never seen a combination like he brought in his younger days (and even later, in films like the Rock). He was just so natural at projecting refined, yet definite manliness. He didn't have to even say anything......he also looked it and he walked it

    Yes but the question was about a forceful presence.

    Right, but this started when discussing Craig's behaviour with Vesper and Lisbeth. In both those cases, some refinement is called for (for Vesper because she probably wouldn't react well to someone who was just tough, and for Lisbeth because she certainly wasn't going to take any sh>> from some tough guy). I think Connery could have pulled off the Vesper train thing with ease, but not Blomkvist with Lisbeth (too much machismo).

    True. Connery and Eva Green would have been great. Just his type I think.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Name another actor who can be as forceful a presence as Connery??? I can't.

    Paul Newman

    James Garner
  • Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    SJK91 wrote: »
    Casino Royale has some of the franchise's best direction. Great tense moments, all actors are shining, there is not a missed beat to be honest. I feel Campbell can be given a fair bit of credit for that. GoldenEye is a conundrum for me. I actually do like the film quite a bit as it sits right around the 10 spot for me. At the same time, Pierce Brosnan is upstaged by just about everyone in the film. (This is very clear during 006's revelation in the statue park. Sean Bean acts Brosnan right off the screen.) Is that and other examples like that Campbell's fault? Or does Sean Bean just have that much more presence that Brosnan any direction withstanding? I'm not so sure.

    Consider this:

    Daniel Craig's acting in the lengthy scene in the train when he first meets Vesper is less than impressive. Eva Green is simply stealing the hole sequence and Craig does nothing against it.
    It's not the only scene with Craig where I feel he doesn't act really better than Brosnan did in GE.
    Is it Eva Green's fault or Campbell's?

    I personally think that was meant to be and intentional. She is supposed to impress the hell out of him and get the better of him, which she convincingly does...

    His approving and surprised glance back at her as she leaves sort of confirms it.

    I too had a new found appreciation for accountants after that scene.

    Craig is a less forceful presence than Connery and does it seems to me sometimes allow his leading ladies to dominate. Look at TGWTDT. I dont think that it's bad acting but sometimes it would be nice if he amped it up a bit more.

    I think the epic fail with Craig and bondgirls is Solange. His expression and body language actually makes him seem desperate when he is trying to pick her up in the Aston, it reminded me entirely of an ancient TJ HOOKER where 50something Shatner is trying to get Lisa Hartman to go on a date. I still can't believe they even printed that take, let alone used it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    trevanian wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    SJK91 wrote: »
    Casino Royale has some of the franchise's best direction. Great tense moments, all actors are shining, there is not a missed beat to be honest. I feel Campbell can be given a fair bit of credit for that. GoldenEye is a conundrum for me. I actually do like the film quite a bit as it sits right around the 10 spot for me. At the same time, Pierce Brosnan is upstaged by just about everyone in the film. (This is very clear during 006's revelation in the statue park. Sean Bean acts Brosnan right off the screen.) Is that and other examples like that Campbell's fault? Or does Sean Bean just have that much more presence that Brosnan any direction withstanding? I'm not so sure.

    Consider this:

    Daniel Craig's acting in the lengthy scene in the train when he first meets Vesper is less than impressive. Eva Green is simply stealing the hole sequence and Craig does nothing against it.
    It's not the only scene with Craig where I feel he doesn't act really better than Brosnan did in GE.
    Is it Eva Green's fault or Campbell's?

    I personally think that was meant to be and intentional. She is supposed to impress the hell out of him and get the better of him, which she convincingly does...

    His approving and surprised glance back at her as she leaves sort of confirms it.

    I too had a new found appreciation for accountants after that scene.

    Craig is a less forceful presence than Connery and does it seems to me sometimes allow his leading ladies to dominate. Look at TGWTDT. I dont think that it's bad acting but sometimes it would be nice if he amped it up a bit more.

    I think the epic fail with Craig and bondgirls is Solange. His expression and body language actually makes him seem desperate when he is trying to pick her up in the Aston, it reminded me entirely of an ancient TJ HOOKER where 50something Shatner is trying to get Lisa Hartman to go on a date. I still can't believe they even printed that take, let alone used it.

    LOL. I think he should have slept with Solange.
  • Posts: 11,425
    echo wrote: »
    trevanian wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    SJK91 wrote: »
    Casino Royale has some of the franchise's best direction. Great tense moments, all actors are shining, there is not a missed beat to be honest. I feel Campbell can be given a fair bit of credit for that. GoldenEye is a conundrum for me. I actually do like the film quite a bit as it sits right around the 10 spot for me. At the same time, Pierce Brosnan is upstaged by just about everyone in the film. (This is very clear during 006's revelation in the statue park. Sean Bean acts Brosnan right off the screen.) Is that and other examples like that Campbell's fault? Or does Sean Bean just have that much more presence that Brosnan any direction withstanding? I'm not so sure.

    Consider this:

    Daniel Craig's acting in the lengthy scene in the train when he first meets Vesper is less than impressive. Eva Green is simply stealing the hole sequence and Craig does nothing against it.
    It's not the only scene with Craig where I feel he doesn't act really better than Brosnan did in GE.
    Is it Eva Green's fault or Campbell's?

    I personally think that was meant to be and intentional. She is supposed to impress the hell out of him and get the better of him, which she convincingly does...

    His approving and surprised glance back at her as she leaves sort of confirms it.

    I too had a new found appreciation for accountants after that scene.

    Craig is a less forceful presence than Connery and does it seems to me sometimes allow his leading ladies to dominate. Look at TGWTDT. I dont think that it's bad acting but sometimes it would be nice if he amped it up a bit more.

    I think the epic fail with Craig and bondgirls is Solange. His expression and body language actually makes him seem desperate when he is trying to pick her up in the Aston, it reminded me entirely of an ancient TJ HOOKER where 50something Shatner is trying to get Lisa Hartman to go on a date. I still can't believe they even printed that take, let alone used it.

    LOL. I think he should have slept with Solange.

    He definitely should have slept with her. I do remember thinking the rolling around on the floor looked a little uncomfortable and odd. I suppose he's actually after something else, but even so, surely Bond would have been civil enough to give her a good seeing too - her last night on Earth and all that. Not very gentlemanly when he orders the champagne and just buggers off without so much as an how's your father.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Name another actor who can be as forceful a presence as Connery??? I can't.


    Steve McQueen??

    Personally as a girl i find Sean Connery much more attractive but Steve amcQueen got the part of Thomas Crown in the 60s because Sean Connery declined it.
    so that means at least Jewison thought Mcqueen was the guy that could give Sean Connery a run for his money when he made him the second choice.


    Imagine if Connery would have played Thomas Crown opposite to Faye Dunaway
    that would have been fantastic and it would have made 1 more character that Pierce and Connery shared.

    Now i wonder would Pierce have dared to play Thomas Crown in the remake if Connery would have been the original Thomas Crown?

    Personally i think Pierce was much better than McQueen as Thomas Crown. he felt more comfortable in the role and seemed to enjoy it much more.
    I love both versions of that story but The Thomas Crown affair is one of few films where i think the remake was better than the original.


    Sorry for getting so out of topic i just got carried away since i LOVE The Thomas Crown affair

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Until now I never realised that Campbell was actually disliked by some, as a Bond director. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I always felt it was pretty universally accepted that he was responsible for rejuvenating the series twice, and was a master of Bond on a level with Terrence Young.

    Anyway I hope and think that he could return once more, if we are lucky. ;) Without Mendes they will need someone reliable to fall back on, and I think Forster didn't exactly have a lot of fun on Bond.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Until now I never realised that Campbell was actually disliked by some, as a Bond director. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I always felt it was pretty universally accepted that he was responsible for rejuvenating the series twice, and was a master of Bond on a level with Terrence Young.

    Anyway I hope and think that he could return once more, if we are lucky. ;) Without Mendes they will need someone reliable to fall back on, and I think Forster didn't exactly have a lot of fun on Bond.
    Would you if you were responsible for a $200m plus feature with an incomplete script?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    I know this phrase gets some folks very angry but I can't hold it back: Martin Campbell saved the series twice. Granted, he wasn't the writer, production designer, stunt coordinator, lead actor, main title designer, ... on those two films; the Bond films are always a "many people" effort. Nevertheless, the director does leave a mark on the films he makes. And so when taking into consideration the uncertain future of the series in the early nineties and the early 2000s and seeing how both GE and CR brought in scores of new fans, it's only fair to admit that Campbell did something good.

    Some say it helps a lot to establish a new actor in the part. While it certainly sounds very reasonable that there's a particular thrill to introducing a new face in the 007 part, the director is still going to play a major part in doing the introduction well.

    Campbell, in both cases, took the films in a different direction overall. GE was about doing the things that had always been done, only pushing the envelope even further. CR, in contrast, was about stripping Bond to his bare essentials and going for the less-is-more approach.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 2017 Posts: 1,711
    Casino Royale is in my top half, and Goldeneye, well, not so much. And I didn't really note any particular directorial descisions that accounted for either result.

    Most likely, if Bond takes a 4-6 year break after a critical or financial failure, whoever directs the then long-awaited followup, as long as it's "not like that last one", will be regarded as a genius.

    You can see it with Mendes, who also raked in praise for Skyfall after a four-year gap following a somewhat unloved movie. Now, in his case, I can see how Mendes shaped that movie, so I think he deserves the acclaim. But had Campbell done the followup to Goldeneye or Casino Royale, there's no reason in the world, based on his other work, to think that he would have made better received films than Tomorrow Never Dies or Spectre.

    Campbell is competent, and knows how to pick his jobs though. Given that every Bond actor's first film is a good one, it seems like a safe bet. Especially if the audience is starving for Bond.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Campbell's contributions to the franchise, and overall good ones they were, have always been vastly overrated. Campbell, as a director, is as good as the script he is working on. He's not going to elevate the material beyond what is on the page. He got a slightly better than mediocre script with GoldenEye and he delivered just that, a slightly better than mediocre film. He was given a terrific script with CR and followed suit with the film.

    An actor's first Bond film always tends to go down well with audiences (save for Lazenby's, perhaps). There's an appetite and a curiosity there that other films in the franchise just don't have going for them, and Campbell got caught up in that twice, and had the good fortune of doing so coming off of long hiatuses each time as well, which only heightened the anticipation.

    I like Campbell and his contributions to the franchise, but at the same time I don't feel like they deserve the unwavering admiration that they tend to receive either.
  • I think Campell is good for introducing new actors into the role, he isn't somebody like Terence Young or John Glen where he's worked with the same Bond more than once, so I can't really make a case against the man as a director (that's unless we go off topic and start talking about Green Lantern)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    For:CR
    Against:GE
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 11,425
    dalton wrote: »
    Campbell's contributions to the franchise, and overall good ones they were, have always been vastly overrated. Campbell, as a director, is as good as the script he is working on. He's not going to elevate the material beyond what is on the page. He got a slightly better than mediocre script with GoldenEye and he delivered just that, a slightly better than mediocre film. He was given a terrific script with CR and followed suit with the film.

    An actor's first Bond film always tends to go down well with audiences (save for Lazenby's, perhaps). There's an appetite and a curiosity there that other films in the franchise just don't have going for them, and Campbell got caught up in that twice, and had the good fortune of doing so coming off of long hiatuses each time as well, which only heightened the anticipation.

    I like Campbell and his contributions to the franchise, but at the same time I don't feel like they deserve the unwavering admiration that they tend to receive either.

    Very well put. The God like status afforded Campbell around here is absurd.

    For my money GE is one of the worst of the lot. And CR amongst the better middle rankers. Both films are massively overrated IMO. Although CR is clearly in an entirely different league to the abysmal GE.
    For:CR
    Against:GE

    Precisely

    Talk of him saving the series is an impossible to test hypothesis as we have no way of knowing what would have happened with different directors. Clearly he did more than just keep the show on the road, in a commercial sense at least. But then given the franchise had survived previous blips and problems, and that there was a huge appetite for a new Bond film, may be we attribute too much credit to Cambell's genius and not enough to the enduring popularity of the character.

    However from my perspective his first film ushered in a decade of creative brain death that suggested Bond was ready to be retired.

    He definitely redeemed himself with CR though. Although I can't help feeling a lot of the credit goes to a certain I. Fleming and D. Craig.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I agree with @DarthDimi. He saved the franchise twice. He deserves all the praise.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    Murdock wrote: »
    I agree with @DarthDimi. He saved the franchise twice. He deserves all the praise.

    I'm going to agree to disagree with that statement. I think Campbell rejuvenated the series twice. But I don't think the series has ever needed saving. Bond has always had an audience. It drops off sometimes, and needs kick starting. I think Campbell has done a terrific job of that. Twice.
    His contribution to the series is certainly immense, and I'd be more than happy for him to return to directorial duties at any time.

  • Posts: 12,474
    I also think he deserves the praise. Whether you liked his Bond films or not, he revived the series two times when it badly needed it, and delivered two of the most beloved Bond films ever.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Benny wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I agree with @DarthDimi. He saved the franchise twice. He deserves all the praise.

    I'm going to agree to disagree with that statement. I think Campbell rejuvenated the series twice. But I don't think the series has ever needed saving. Bond has always had an audience. It drops off sometimes, and needs kick starting. I think Campbell has done a terrific job of that. Twice.
    His contribution to the series is certainly immense, and I'd be more than happy for him to return to directorial duties at any time.

    Yes. A more balanced and plausible stance. 'Saved' is hyperbolic and overblown. The world was ready and waiting for another Bond film in 1991, so it's not hard to imagine expectation and anticipation would simply have grown over the next few years. That's because Bond is enduringly popular, almost regardless of who plays him and who directs.

    I can certainly see that the six year gap left Bond in a slightly precarious position, and the 'by the numbers' approach that Campbell took was entirely understandable, even if it doesn't really fully excuse the resulting dreck of a movie.

    With CR, I'm not sure there was quite so much at stake though. As Brosnan fans are always quick to point out, DAD was a commercial smash, so it's not like there was any doubt there'd be another film. Certainly Bond by 2002 lacked any contemporary relevance or cultural credibility, but as a money making machine, it was still well on track.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Campbell made two iconic Bond films. Impressive hit rate.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Precisely.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited April 2017 Posts: 7,136
    Campbell introduced two new Bonds and gave them their best outings in their respective tenures. Both films were some sort of resurrection of 007 and he's good at that.

    But I guess that's his thing. He resurrected another classic hero, Zorro, with great success too. However, if you look at the rest of his career, those three films are without any doubt his only great films.

    If there will be a new Bond, give him a shot. If not, I wouldn't pick him. Look at what happenned to The Legend of Zorro. Maybe he never came back to Brosnan or Craig because he put all his inspiration in that one film.
  • Posts: 1,631
    For all of the talk about him rejuvenating or "saving" the series twice, whose to say that someone else couldn't have pulled off that exact same feat, and to much better effect to boot? Given the massive appetite for a new Bond film in 1995 (I witnessed a standing ovation to the GE teaser trailer when it was shown in the theater back in the day) and the sheer quality of the CR script and source material, I'd argue that it's more of a case that the enduring popularity of the character combined with an appetite (GE) and a curiosity (CR) and, in both cases, a long hiatus that drove the popularity of those two films.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    You're right, those factors contributed to the successes of both films as well. But I wouldn't put it all down to these aspects either. After all, he pulled the same trick with The Mask of Zorro.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    dalton wrote: »
    For all of the talk about him rejuvenating or "saving" the series twice, whose to say that someone else couldn't have pulled off that exact same feat, and to much better effect to boot?

    You could say this about anything. You could also equally argue that someone else might've royally f***ed it up. We don't know. What we do know is that GE and CR are two of the most recognisable and successful entries in the series. Campbell knows how to make Bond films.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited April 2017 Posts: 5,131
    Campbell made the best Bond film of the 90's. He then made the best Bond film since the 60's in 2006. Martin Campbell knows how to entertain an audience when he steps behind the camera. He also has a stylish eye. I'd say he was pretty darn good!

    Campbell introduced two new Bonds and gave them their best outings in their respective tenures. Period.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Funny thing is, I had expected tons of fun from his directorial effort on GREEN LANTERN and felt gravely disappointed. Of course it's probably not Campbell's mistake; producers of superhero films are notorious control freaks, a tradition the Salkinds established early on when Donner did SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE for them.
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