Minor But Memorable Missteps in the Bond Series

2

Comments

  • barryt007 wrote: »
    Of course it's Bond just being polite,i have never seen it any other way,and Connery plays it perfectly,with a wry smile.
    M_Balje wrote: »
    No 5th Brosnan Bond movie
    Stairs fight in Casino Royale
    24 element/ Clown Airport scene in Casino Royale
    Bond James Bond at the end of Casino Royale.
    24/Dark Knight (Rises) / Arrow elements in Skyfall and Spectre.
    Blofeld Bond steph brother in Spectre. I think it wil be a bigger problem that Bond his steph brother brings the mi6 bulding down, then choose to bring it down.

    Wow......

    Normally I agree with everything M_Balje has to say—sometimes it's like we share the same mind—but this...

    I'm speechless. All I can say is bread.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Of course it's Bond just being polite,i have never seen it any other way,and Connery plays it perfectly,with a wry smile.
    M_Balje wrote: »
    No 5th Brosnan Bond movie
    Stairs fight in Casino Royale
    24 element/ Clown Airport scene in Casino Royale
    Bond James Bond at the end of Casino Royale.
    24/Dark Knight (Rises) / Arrow elements in Skyfall and Spectre.
    Blofeld Bond steph brother in Spectre. I think it wil be a bigger problem that Bond his steph brother brings the mi6 bulding down, then choose to bring it down.

    Wow......

    Normally I agree with everything M_Balje has to say—sometimes it's like we share the same mind—but this...

    I'm speechless. All I can say is bread.

    Bread Whitaker? Pretty weak villain.
  • barryt007 wrote: »
    Of course it's Bond just being polite,i have never seen it any other way,and Connery plays it perfectly,with a wry smile.
    M_Balje wrote: »
    No 5th Brosnan Bond movie
    Stairs fight in Casino Royale
    24 element/ Clown Airport scene in Casino Royale
    Bond James Bond at the end of Casino Royale.
    24/Dark Knight (Rises) / Arrow elements in Skyfall and Spectre.
    Blofeld Bond steph brother in Spectre. I think it wil be a bigger problem that Bond his steph brother brings the mi6 bulding down, then choose to bring it down.

    Wow......

    Normally I agree with everything M_Balje has to say—sometimes it's like we share the same mind—but this...

    I'm speechless. All I can say is bread.

    Bread Whitaker? Pretty weak villain.

    Would have given Dalton the opportunity to quip: "Don't mind him under the statue there. He's just loafing around."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Of course it's Bond just being polite,i have never seen it any other way,and Connery plays it perfectly,with a wry smile.
    M_Balje wrote: »
    No 5th Brosnan Bond movie
    Stairs fight in Casino Royale
    24 element/ Clown Airport scene in Casino Royale
    Bond James Bond at the end of Casino Royale.
    24/Dark Knight (Rises) / Arrow elements in Skyfall and Spectre.
    Blofeld Bond steph brother in Spectre. I think it wil be a bigger problem that Bond his steph brother brings the mi6 bulding down, then choose to bring it down.

    Wow......

    Normally I agree with everything M_Balje has to say—sometimes it's like we share the same mind—but this...

    I'm speechless. All I can say is bread.

    Bread Whitaker? Pretty weak villain.

    Would have given Dalton the opportunity to quip: "Don't mind him under the statue there. He's just loafing around."

    "I think he got the crust of it."
  • "He ordered a ham on die. I gave it to him."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    #Toast
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited November 2018 Posts: 24,261
    1) No explanation is whatsoever given to why men attack Bond in Beirut (TMWTGG). I can fill in the blanks myself, of course. A western man going backstage to get intimate with a belly dancer; simple movie logic dictates that this gets a few local blokes angry. Still, I expect more from a Bond script in terms of motivation.

    2) Coincidence galore in TWINE. Like salt, a little of it is good but too much can be deadly. What a coincidence that Renard was able to shoot the man with the gun in the banker's office, that M had an alarm clock at her disposal, that Valentin had a nephew who was the captain of a nuclear sub, that Bond decided to go skiing with Elektra (or else there would have been very little use for those Parahawks), that Elektra and Renard used the exact same line when dialoguing with Bond, that Bond found the right papers and bags in Davidov's car, that Valentin suddenly remembered Mr Bullion seconds before the bomb went off, ...

    3) - AVTAK is about microchips.
    - No no, it's about horse race cheating!
    - Na-ah, it's about microchips!
    - Really? Because we do spend a lot of time investigating the totally unrelated horse race cheating.
    - But that's because bad guys are evil in every aspect of life! They concoct major terrorist plans, but they cheat at every other "game" too, even a mere few days before their biggest secret operation ever, not at all worried about drawing unnecessary attention to them. Wasn't that the case with Drax in Fleming's MR too?
    - Yes, except that Fleming gave Drax a believable motivation. Zorin is just here to make money.
    - But he's just the stereotypical Bond villain!
    - In the mind of a child, perhaps...

    4) "Zorin"

    Because evil people are named like aliens in bad 1950s Ed Wood films.
  • Posts: 1,927
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    1) No explanation is whatsoever given to why men attack Bond in Beirut (TMWTGG). I can fill in the blanks myself, of course. A western man going backstage to get intimate with a belly dancer; simple movie logic dictates that this gets a few local blokes angry. Still, I expect more from a Bond script in terms of motivation.
    I always wondered about that too. Bond is after the bullet and they needed an action sequence but at least give some kind of detail as to who these people are and their motivation.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I always took it that Saida was that fat chap's girl (with him being the owner of the establishment, given where he was sitting and all). Or at least that he had a thing for her and didn't like her giving Bond the looks during the dance. I thought the other two were his sons.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    @bondjames
    Sounds solid enough. If only she had thrown him a kiss or winked at him after her performance, it would have been enough. Something.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @DarthDimi, I think it may have been a case of unrequited or hidden love. ;). Seeing her suggestively performing for Bond pushed him over the edge.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    @bondjames
    Now, that's the spinoff I want. Imagine a film about the big bald guy and Saida right after Bond passed through...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @bondjames
    Now, that's the spinoff I want. Imagine a film about the big bald guy and Saida right after Bond passed through...
    It would have been hilarious for sure.

    I actually wanted to see more of him in the film. I think they could have incorporated a bit more of Beirut and the side story into it if they wanted to. They sort of did something like that in the next film (with Fekkesh and Max Kalba in a similar environment) and I liked it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,345
    They missed a trick not casting that man as Blofeld! He certainly had the girth for the Blofeld in the Thunderball novel!
  • I didn't like the Brozza/Jinx 'in the sack' bit. We've always seen Bond kissing and smooching, but seeing him 'feast' was a bit much. It turned me into an instant prude.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    shamanimal wrote: »
    I didn't like the Brozza/Jinx 'in the sack' bit. We've always seen Bond kissing and smooching, but seeing him 'feast' was a bit much. It turned me into an instant prude.
    I can appreciate where you're coming from. I've always felt that the 'vigorous' nature of that scene was a nod (as an anniversary entry) to the Fatima/Bond scene in NSNA, which was equally suggestive for a Bond film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    Yeah, they were definitely amping it up, there. I've always read it as just the thing James Bond would do after 14 months in sexual hibernation. I mean, he was clumsy enough to let Peaceful go. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yeah, they were definitely amping it up, there. I've always read it as just the thing James Bond would do after 14 months in sexual hibernation. I mean, he was clumsy enough to let Peaceful go. ;)
    That's a good point too. He was certainly deprived for an unusually long time on account of his captivity.

    The NSNA thing I mentioned also came to mind on account of their respective intro scenes, which are somewhat similar as well (both Jinx and Fatima come out of the water as Bond is having a drink loitering about near a bar).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    bondjames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yeah, they were definitely amping it up, there. I've always read it as just the thing James Bond would do after 14 months in sexual hibernation. I mean, he was clumsy enough to let Peaceful go. ;)
    That's a good point too. He was certainly deprived for an unusually long time on account of his captivity.

    The NSNA thing I mentioned also came to mind on account of their respective intro scenes, which are somewhat similar as well (both Jinx and Fatima come out of the water as Bond is having drink loitering about near a bar).

    It would feel a bit strange if EON were to make clear nods to NSNA, though I can see some similarities. After all, Jinx takes a dive from a stone wall just like the horse in NSNA did, and yes, I recognise the insult I just threw at Jinx. Also, an invisible car. I swear there's an invisible car in NSNA. We just didn't see it. (Okay, bad joke.)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yeah, they were definitely amping it up, there. I've always read it as just the thing James Bond would do after 14 months in sexual hibernation. I mean, he was clumsy enough to let Peaceful go. ;)
    That's a good point too. He was certainly deprived for an unusually long time on account of his captivity.

    The NSNA thing I mentioned also came to mind on account of their respective intro scenes, which are somewhat similar as well (both Jinx and Fatima come out of the water as Bond is having drink loitering about near a bar).

    It would feel a bit strange if EON were to make clear nods to NSNA, though I can see some similarities. After all, Jinx takes a dive from a stone wall just like the horse in NSNA did, and yes, I recognise the insult I just threw at Jinx. Also, an invisible car. I swear there's an invisible car in NSNA. We just didn't see it. (Okay, bad joke.)
    I agree that it would be odd, but I definitely noticed the similarities between that horse jump and the Jinx dive as well, so it's either intentional or a big coincidence. There's a bit of NSNA in anniversary SF as well (old dog and all that).
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    edited November 2018 Posts: 1,890
    Some of your examples aren't necessarily missteps, @DarthDimi...

    For example in TWINE; of course Bond would have access to all of the items Davidov was going to bring because he was on his way to the airfield at the time -- ready to depart. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I always assumed the parahawks were borrowed for the sole purpose of killing Bond during his ski escapade with Elektra. Once Bond insisted he'd be going, Davidov - who was present - probably radioed in to ask for it to be arranged. Finally, Zukovsky wasn't calling out Mr. Bullion's name for no reason. He was likely going to ask him to run some errand for him or whatever. Nothing odd there.

    AVTAK never veered away from the microchip aspect of the plot. It's probably mentioned every 2-3 minutes. And the horse cheating is linked to the use of these chips so I don't see how that's wasting anyone's time watching it.

  • Yes, Valentin calls his name casually as if for some errand. It’s Bond who notices him speed-walking away, then sees the briefcase left behind and puts two and two together, no doubt in part due to the recent pipeline bombing and double-cross with M.

    It also isn’t a coincidence that Bond gets saved in the banker’s office. Renard had positioned himself to watch the whole set up and ensure the transaction is completed. No odder than Grant playing guardian angel to Bond in FRWL.

    And Renard and Elektra sharing the same motto? How often do we use the same peculiar phrases day after day with various people and in various situations? Renard and Elektra were deeply intertwined and no doubt would have picked up each other’s expressions. This was one unique to Renard’s situation and its use made sense when either one said the phrase in front of Bond. I don’t see a coincidence or misstep here.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,485
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    3) - AVTAK is about microchips.
    - No no, it's about horse race cheating!
    - Na-ah, it's about microchips!
    - Really? Because we do spend a lot of time investigating the totally unrelated horse race cheating.
    - But that's because bad guys are evil in every aspect of life! They concoct major terrorist plans, but they cheat at every other "game" too, even a mere few days before their biggest secret operation ever, not at all worried about drawing unnecessary attention to them. Wasn't that the case with Drax in Fleming's MR too?
    - Yes, except that Fleming gave Drax a believable motivation. Zorin is just here to make money.
    - But he's just the stereotypical Bond villain!
    - In the mind of a child, perhaps...

    4) "Zorin"

    Because evil people are named like aliens in bad 1950s Ed Wood films.

    Frequently in the Bond movies the original reason Bond is sent out to investigate is not what it appears. GF he's sent out to prove Goldfinger is smuggling. TLD he's sent out for Smiert Spionom and it turns out there's an arms and opium drug deal. Etc.
  • thedove wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    3) - AVTAK is about microchips.
    - No no, it's about horse race cheating!
    - Na-ah, it's about microchips!
    - Really? Because we do spend a lot of time investigating the totally unrelated horse race cheating.
    - But that's because bad guys are evil in every aspect of life! They concoct major terrorist plans, but they cheat at every other "game" too, even a mere few days before their biggest secret operation ever, not at all worried about drawing unnecessary attention to them. Wasn't that the case with Drax in Fleming's MR too?
    - Yes, except that Fleming gave Drax a believable motivation. Zorin is just here to make money.
    - But he's just the stereotypical Bond villain!
    - In the mind of a child, perhaps...

    4) "Zorin"

    Because evil people are named like aliens in bad 1950s Ed Wood films.

    Frequently in the Bond movies the original reason Bond is sent out to investigate is not what it appears. GF he's sent out to prove Goldfinger is smuggling. TLD he's sent out for Smiert Spionom and it turns out there's an arms and opium drug deal. Etc.

    Very true. When I was younger and working on writing my own Bond stories, I examined the plots of the Bond films for inspiration and for a formula to follow, and I found just this: that many Bond films begin with Bond following a relatively minor lead—some low on the totem pole matter like smuggling, a theft, or the assassination of one man—and stumbling into a far grander scheme. Not always, but frequently enough to be considered one part of what constitutes the formula. Even back then, this struck me as altogether too coincidental. Nevertheless, it’s a core part of what makes the Bond stories Bond stories. And when you think about it, it does make sense that bad men would be involved in many different shady businesses. Fingers in many pies. It’s just often rather too coincidental that Bond gets put on the case a mere day or two before the villain’s major scheme is about to go down.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,390
    Some of your examples aren't necessarily missteps, @DarthDimi...

    For example in TWINE; of course Bond would have access to all of the items Davidov was going to bring because he was on his way to the airfield at the time -- ready to depart. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I always assumed the parahawks were borrowed for the sole purpose of killing Bond during his ski escapade with Elektra. Once Bond insisted he'd be going, Davidov - who was present - probably radioed in to ask for it to be arranged. Finally, Zukovsky wasn't calling out Mr. Bullion's name for no reason. He was likely going to ask him to run some errand for him or whatever. Nothing odd there.

    AVTAK never veered away from the microchip aspect of the plot. It's probably mentioned every 2-3 minutes. And the horse cheating is linked to the use of these chips so I don't see how that's wasting anyone's time watching it.

    It's not so much that the horses aren't linked to the microchips, it's that the horses are completely dropped after much buildup.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    Say you are going to pull your "main strike" in a matter of days. Last thing you want is to draw unnecessary attention to your entire shady enterprise. What brings Bond to Zorin's estate? An investigation into microchip abuse during horse racing, which, by mere coincidence (people Bond meets at Zorin's party), will eventually lead Bond to San Francisco.

    Let's think this through.
    1) If Zorin had been keeping more to himself for a while, and if he hadn't terminated a private detective digging into his horse race cheating, Bond might not even have considered him a suspect. He might have followed an entirely different set of clues leading him nowhere, completely missing every opportunity to stop Main Strike and Zorin would have won. By being so overtly "false" and "evil", Zorin practically screamed, "I'm the bad guy here, it's me you're looking for!" I mean, the bloody fool directly aided in the murder of the French detective for crying it out loudly! He didn't even consider hiring a team of assassins for the job? And to make the arrows pointing at him even thicker, he had May Day commit the murder in public, in daylight, while waiting for her, not even disguised, on the river Seine! Come on. That's almost as bad as Drax instructing his righthand man to kill Bond who's only in California because he hasn't the faintest idea where else to start looking for the missing Moonraker. Both Drax and Zorin, through patient inaction, could have kept MI6 running in circles, like rats in a maze.

    2) Still, Bond discovers that Mr. Microchip uses microchips as a tool for horse race cheating? So? Leave that in the hands of the police, Bond, and concern yourself with that far more important leak and the possible involvement of the KGB. The rationale here is ludicrous! That's like suggesting that Bill Gates is in cahoots with the toughest cybercriminals because we have discovered that he downloads porn. Bond was simply lucky that a man cheating at horse racing so happens to also be the man behind the leak who ALSO happens to be planning a terrorist attack on San Francisco. Bond wasn't smart wasting all that time on a petty little crime. He was lucky.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,485
    That critique opens up a can of worms @DarthDimi why doesn't Goldfinger kill Bond in Miami? Why let him live too and leave such an obvious calling card by painting Jill in paint...gold paint. LOL!

    As Dr. Ling warns Goldfinger he should stop his other activities while they are closing in to Operation Grand Slam. Goldfinger merely puts that concern off. Same could be said for Zorin, who gets a visit from Gogol regarding his activities and gets blown off. Actually there are many similarities within AVTAK and GF.

    Bond in GF investigates a man who is be known to smuggle gold, then when he discovers that fact he gets caught up in another "caper" and learns of Operation Grand Slam.


    Look at DAF. Bond is sent to investigate why a diamond smuggling ring is shutting down and discovers that the diamonds are being used for a satellite. LALD he is sent to investigate why three agents were all killed when they were investigating unrelated cases. He stumbles on the heroin plot of Kananga. I could go on.


    I've always explained away why the villains did what they did by the fact they all have rather large egos and feel that they exist above the law.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    edited November 2018 Posts: 1,890
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Say you are going to pull your "main strike" in a matter of days. Last thing you want is to draw unnecessary attention to your entire shady enterprise. What brings Bond to Zorin's estate? An investigation into microchip abuse during horse racing, which, by mere coincidence (people Bond meets at Zorin's party), will eventually lead Bond to San Francisco.

    Well, it started during the PTS when Bond recovers one of the microchips from the Siberian research center owned by Zorin. From that moment on Bond insisted himself (?) that he should go and meet him and doesn't care where that would take place.

    It's only Aubergine that indirectly sends him to go to the stables specifically because the French police were onto Zorin's horse cheating. So really Bond never cared about the stables or horses. He just used the event to get easy access to Zorin (and like I said he only knew about it from Aubergine). Once things got more serious, of course Bond was going to head to SF. He can let the French police deal with the small fish.

    Back to the PTS, that was where Zorin failed. At that point even if he stayed in the shadows, Bond would still get to him. Maybe just not as fast.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,261
    I understand all that, guys. And I know, it does open a whole can of worms! I completely agree. But here's the thing. Several Bond films, when I'm not thinking too hard, do get away with their conceits. The problem with AVTAK is that it keeps bothering me, even when I'm not thinking too hard. :)
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    bondjames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yeah, they were definitely amping it up, there. I've always read it as just the thing James Bond would do after 14 months in sexual hibernation. I mean, he was clumsy enough to let Peaceful go. ;)
    That's a good point too. He was certainly deprived for an unusually long time on account of his captivity.

    The NSNA thing I mentioned also came to mind on account of their respective intro scenes, which are somewhat similar as well (both Jinx and Fatima come out of the water as Bond is having a drink loitering about near a bar).

    That scene in NSNA again also provided one of the best one liner's in Bond history. "At least my Martini's still dry".
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