Miss America on evolution

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  • Posts: 15
    I'm assuming this is a new competition since Alyssa Campanella already won Miss U.S.A, right? Meaning that it's different than Miss America? I'm not really up to date with these things.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    The youtube film may not be as recent as this thread. ;;)
  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    edited August 2011 Posts: 823
    hey!

    how about the Big Bang theory?

    I believe everyone should get the full thrust of it!!
  • edited August 2011 Posts: 4,622


    I'm flattered that quite of few of these ladies agree that evolution should be taught in school, however the few who don't honestly frighten me. It's not exactly a matter of belief...

    What do you think?
    I like all these girls. They all gave great answers and all looked real great doing so considering this is a stupid question to be asking beauty contestants, so good for the girls and phooey to any superior thinkers who feel a need to mock the girls.
    The girls in fact, all do a masterful of job of dodging the poltics inherent in the question.
    The question smacks of a political agenda anyway when asked in this type of forum - ie conformist liberals, fishing for an answer from beauty contestants, so they can ridicule and promote their one-size fits-all correct thinking and thus associate non-conformist thinking with stereo typical dumb beauty contestants. Brilliant, except these girls are brighter than your average correct thinking pc drone.

    The problem with evolution being taught in schools is that the whole issue is hopelessly politicized. Anti- religion fanatics try to use it as a hammer to "disprove" religious belief which is absurd, while religious obsessives feel some need to challenge evolution as a threat to faith which is equally absurd.

    I think it should be tossed out of the public school system, because I don't trust the motives of those trying to promote it. Then again I don't really care. High school students and beauty contestants, do have an uncanny knack to know when their elder "smarters" are pushing an agenda rather than actually attempting to honestly educate. I care more that the school system be diligently giving students a grounding in science basics not to mention reading and writing and non politicized social sciences.
    Save the politics for university where students should be "evolved" enough to address or work around biases in their teacher's teaching. ( ie. the tried and true, tell the idiot prof what he wants to hear technique of getting a good grade, getting the degree and getting the hell out)
  • nick_007nick_007 Ville Marie
    Posts: 443
    Just to be a bit pedantic, evolution is actually a theory, i.e. the best explanation that fits the observed evidence. In science a theory is about as sure as you can be about something because someone might run an experiment or find evidence that means you have to refine the theory or come up with a new one.

    Of course that means you can have people who go 'oh, it's only a theory, I have one too,' without understanding that it's a 'scientific theory' and... Oh, never mind. This is turning into a very pedantic post. Sigh.
    Thank you. I always shrug when people say "it's only a theory." Scientifc theory is backed up by evidence. Otherwise it would be a hypothesis.
    I manage to be a scientist without having to be atheist. ;;) Religion and science can be reconciled. However, I do believe it's a matter of individual choice. Now, you can't deny science. That's ridiculous. You can, however, choose to add religion or not. For some, it will add something to their life, for others, it won't matter all that much.
    Absolutely. You and I have a lot in common, Dimi. I too, choose to ground myself in science and yet I am not an Athiest.
    I'm actually of the opinion that Darwinian evolution should not be taught in schools...because there's no evidence for it, and it's patently absurd. The issue at hand isn't science vs. religion, as the two can function together quite readily. In fact, most of the latest developments in biology (yes, biology) and physics are best explained by appealing to the propostion that the primary motive powers of the universe are intelligence and will, and not chance and accident, which is the true import of the evolution debate.
    You see, I never understood this. Whether it is by chance or by will, I still feel that evolution is the key to life as we know it.
    Threads like this really shouldn't exist on MI6. I've just lost some respect for GeorgeLazenby for no good reason. I didn't want to know that he is a creationist who denies evolution... this topic shouldn't have been brought up. :-(
    I think that is really unfair. If you had respect for the man before, there's no reason to lose respect in him over a theory which, to be honest, does not define human intelligence.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    I was only going to say I'd like to test that Big Bang theory with Miss California, but then this all turned into some sort of serious discussion. So here's my serious reaction.

    @GeorgeLazenby your "In fact, most of the latest developments in biology (yes, biology) and physics are best explained by appealing to the propostion that the primary motive powers of the universe are intelligence and will, and not chance and accident, which is the true import of the evolution debate." is nothing short of a blatand lie. Biology doesn't touch the 'primary motive powers of the universe'. Sorry. The whole idea of ' intelligent design' has nothing to do with Darwin's theory, as Darwin's theory has nothing to do with the origin of life itself. Thanks to my girlfriend who's studying at the cuting edge of biology's understanding of Darwin's theory I know what's been going on in that field.

    @Timmer doesn't it make sense to you to teach scientific theories in science class and Religious ideas in their own classes (whatever they are called)?

    As a historian I have my strong doubts about religion and the motives of organised religion. But that's just looking at what happened in the past. I have no problems with religion classes, as long as they inform children about all the different beliefs that have some decent following.

    Personally I don't believe in (a) god, as I think it stops the mind from appreciating the increadable amazingness of our universe. It's far too complicated and stunningly beautiful to be 'designed'.

    For those who'd like to understand what science has been up to the last few decades I'd like to refer you all to the amazing ' Through the Wormhole' series of Discovery Channel, presented by 'god' himself (Bruce Almighty's), Morgan Freeman.
  • Posts: 4,622
    @Timmer doesn't it make sense to you to teach scientific theories in science class and Religious ideas in their own classes (whatever they are called)?
    I don't think either religion or darwinism, should be taught to public high school students.
    Darwinisn has become far too politicized. If the theories were further developed and something of real substance could be taught- fine, but we are talking teenagers. The theories are too contentious. Teenagers are better off learning basic science, because there is no way to teach evolutionary theory without being drawn into the politics of it all. Save it for college or university or for those specializing in science in their final year or something.
    Then again, I am not that bothered as students, just like beauty contestants, do have an uncanny ability to see past teachers who are trying to shovel them a bias.
    Religion classes in public schools are also waste of time. Teachers again will tie their own biases and ignorance to the curriculum. Parents revolted in Quebec this year because the pc idiots teaching religion, were trying to brainwash the kids into believing that all the religions had an equal value, which makes no sense if you happen to practise or believe one of them. Again, often the kids are smarter than the teachers.
    Better off - no religion classes, or classes about religion (which I think is even more dangerous), in public schools.
    Stick to writing, reading arithmetic, grammar, English, history (preferably not with a political bias). Basic stuff. Give our students the basics they need to function in the world.

  • Posts: 503
    Timmer, you can't teach biology without incorporating evolution; it is integral to how biology works. Are you suggesting we ban all biology classes from high schools?
  • edited August 2011 Posts: 4,622
    Timmer, you can't teach biology without incorporating evolution; it is integral to how biology works. Are you suggesting we ban all biology classes from high schools?
    Are you drawing wild conclusions?
    btw. Biology and the natural sciences are easily taught minus any promotion of Darwin's ideas. Toss them on the table. Fine. But if the theories are in fact promoted than the political/social agendas can and do follow. Poor students. Better off playing with their smart phones and pretend to be listening when the teachers get preachy, which is what teenagers have generally done anyway, since man emerged from the primordial ooze.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,183
    A student of mine actually wrote on her chemistry final: "Btw, I am convinced that the explanation you gave for the origin of the elements is fundamentally wrong. There was never a Big Bang and man did not evolve from primates. I hope God punishes you for this blasphemy!"

    She had already made a mess of most calculations and I'm afraid this comment completely tipped the balance against her favour. Her end result: 42 out of 125 (34 %). Poor thing, brainwashed by Islamic teachings, ready to live a life of ignorance and poison the intellect of her future children.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DarthDimi wrote:
    A student of mine actually wrote on her chemistry final: "Btw, I am convinced that the explanation you gave for the origin of the elements is fundamentally wrong. There was never a Big Bang and man did not evolve from primates. I hope God punishes you for this blasphemy!"

    She had already made a mess of most calculations and I'm afraid this comment completely tipped the balance against her favour. Her end result: 42 out of 125 (34 %). Poor thing, brainwashed by Islamic teachings, ready to live a life of ignorance and poison the intellect of her future children.
    Absolutely rude indeed. And you haven't received a Purple Heart yet, have you @Dimi? Shame.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote:
    A student of mine actually wrote on her chemistry final: "Btw, I am convinced that the explanation you gave for the origin of the elements is fundamentally wrong. There was never a Big Bang and man did not evolve from primates. I hope God punishes you for this blasphemy!"

    She had already made a mess of most calculations and I'm afraid this comment completely tipped the balance against her favour. Her end result: 42 out of 125 (34 %). Poor thing, brainwashed by Islamic teachings, ready to live a life of ignorance and poison the intellect of her future children.

    Not that I particularly care but a tad offensive to Muslims. If you'd only replace the word 'Islamic' with 'religious' then that would clear things up nicely.
    I have no problems with religion classes, as long as they inform children about all the different beliefs that have some decent following.

    This is what riles me about the priviliged position religion enjoys in our society. What constitutes a 'decent' following? And why you should your belief that there is a God be treated by the government with more reverence than my belief that the universe was created by a flying spagetti monster just because more people believe in it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

    This makes the point. Particularly interesting is New Zealand where Jedi wouldve been the 2nd most popular religion if the government hadnt simply decided to completely ignore it. Imagine the furore if they had just chosen to ignore one of the 'etablished' religions?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Not that I particularly care but a tad offensive to Muslims. If you'd only replace the word 'Islamic' with 'religious' then that would clear things up nicely.

    Accepted, @TheWizardOfIce, however she does come from Islamic upbringing and she has been very vocal about how Islamic teachings prevent her from accepting mine. I wasn't lying and neither was I deliberately targeting Muslims. You see...

    ...in the past, I've also had serious trouble with two Christian girls (more precisely Protestants) who were exceptionally furious after seeing an episode of the 'How The Universe Works' documentary series from Discovery Channel. One of them claimed that our theories concerning the expansion of the universe were bogus because in her heart, she simply "felt" it was wrong; God gave her those impulses.

    Well, I'm a Christian too (Catholic) and I have Faith. However, God has never told me to fight objective science and its methods. If anything, the strength of my faith relies in the fact that my beliefs and my scientific knowledge neither cancel each other out, nor end up on opposite sides of some medieval debate. If anything, they complement each other.



  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited July 2012 Posts: 12,480
    Yes, I hear what you are saying, DarthDimi. Especially about your faith and acceptance of science complementing each other. I'm a Christian, too. I personally have no problem believing God made the world, through evolution, or in any way He chose. I do not have any conflict with evolution and my faith.

    And no, before anybody else jumps on me, I do not care to go into more explanation of my particular faith or how I can be a Christian and a long-time Bond fan or explain myself in detail. But I did want to make that statement. Not all Protestants, or indeed all Christians, can be lumped together, especially in such a wide ranging debate as evolution.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Not that I particularly care but a tad offensive to Muslims. If you'd only replace the word 'Islamic' with 'religious' then that would clear things up nicely.

    Accepted, @TheWizardOfIce, however she does come from Islamic upbringing and she has been very vocal about how Islamic teachings prevent her from accepting mine. I wasn't lying and neither was I deliberately targeting Muslims. You see...

    ...in the past, I've also had serious trouble with two Christian girls (more precisely Protestants) who were exceptionally furious after seeing an episode of the 'How The Universe Works' documentary series from Discovery Channel. One of them claimed that our theories concerning the expansion of the universe were bogus because in her heart, she simply "felt" it was wrong; God gave her those impulses.

    Well, I'm a Christian too (Catholic) and I have Faith. However, God has never told me to fight objective science and its methods. If anything, the strength of my faith relies in the fact that my beliefs and my scientific knowledge neither cancel each other out, nor end up on opposite sides of some medieval debate. If anything, they complement each other.



    Really dont understand why these girls are studying science if thats their attitude.

    I really struggle to see how you can say you reconcile faith with science and say theres no conflict. The way I see it you have to come down on one side or the other;
    Science is about logic, reason and finding answers, religion is just blind faith with no evidence except a gut feeling.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,183
    Agreed, @4EverBonded. Even if people cling to the same faith, they can still have vastly different views on certain things and a remarkably different level of tolerance towards certain things as well. I profoundly respect all religious beliefs. I only disrespect individuals, no matter what the believe in, when they use their religion as an excuse to cause harm to other people. Like I said before, I'm a Catholic myself but I have no trouble admitting that I disrespect many of the things the Vatican has done since the middle-ages. In fact, some of those things are downright criminal.
    Really dont understand why these girls are studying science if thats their attitude.

    I really struggle to see how you can say you reconcile faith with science and say theres no conflict. The way I see it you have to come down on one side or the other;
    Science is about logic, reason and finding answers, religion is just blind faith with no evidence except a gut feeling.

    They don't. In our school system, you are taught a bit of everything, no matter what your interests are. Everyone learns about science for example, even you don't necessarily choose ever to specialize in science.

    As for the struggle, I'm afraid I must disagree. Many existential and philosophical questions couldn't possibly be answered scientifically. That's where religion provides. For me, personally, mind you. ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote:
    As for the struggle, I'm afraid I must disagree. Many existential and philosophical questions couldn't possibly be answered scientifically. That's where religion provides. For me, personally, mind you. ;-)

    It strikes me that science provides answers through the laws of phsyics, chemistry and biology for the entire universe from the point of the big bang onwards.

    The only place where I can see intervention of a 'God' would be the guy who flicked the switch that triggered the big bang. Science does not know what exactly caused the big bang and may never will but to call it God is just a word.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I'm actually of the opinion that Darwinian evolution should not be taught in schools...because there's no evidence for it, and it's patently absurd. The issue at hand isn't science vs. religion, as the two can function together quite readily. In fact, most of the latest developments in biology (yes, biology) and physics are best explained by appealing to the propostion that the primary motive powers of the universe are intelligence and will, and not chance and accident, which is the true import of the evolution debate.

    "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research into atoms this much. There is no matter, as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of the atom to vibration. I must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." ~Max Planck

    God is a theory too, but he/she/it/they has not been put to the rigorous test of the scientific method, unlike evolution.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    echo wrote:
    God is a theory too, but he/she/it/they has not been put to the rigorous test of the scientific method, unlike evolution.

    Well said.
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