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SF is one of the best efforts in making a standalone action movie that does not rely on a Bond legacy. Obviously there are references but it stands alone and you would not have know anything about the Bonds traditions and legacy to enjoy it. There is a danger with SP that we return to the formula and do the same things all over again. There have to be more options than re-visiting volcanoes. Dont forget, before SP, many of the audience only know ESB via Austin Powers. He is literally a joke
Also the audience just didn't seem to be into the film ..and not because Bond is British or that we are Americans either so stop with the bashing. American audiences almost mirrored everything the UK audience enjoyed about CR and SF, but not this time.
The writing was horrible. Shame on the producers and the director for mismanaging the writing. Gripe about Sony execs but hey even they were dead on about the faults.
Total shame because like CR SP could have been groundbreaking like CR by re-envisioning the traditional Bond. It did to some degree but no.
I must have been on a Bond high in my first viewing. SP isn't Craig's TB at all, it's his DAD.
And I'm sorry to my fellow fans that love this film ..I still like it ..and I totally understand your disappointment in the polarizing reaction.
But trust me this will be or can be the best thing for Bond in the future.
No........its just that in general, most people like the film more on 2nd viewing as they can take in more, after the initial viewing!
:)
Mendes needs to go. No two ways about it. He got away with it for SF but he was lucky (it was borderline dangerous with the DB5 etc.) because the storyline was so different for Bond. Here, he seems to have gone over the edge for many (including the general audience and critics) because the story itself is just do damn poorly conceived, so these throwbacks are what people are remembering and they are hamfisted.
It's very dangerous when one tries to recall the past which we all know and remember so well...........there is a possibility of it looking uninventive or plagiarized, and thereby just boring. He may have crossed that line here.
Only Campbell got it just right.....twice.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/spectre_2015/reviews/?type=top_critics
It's quite alright but thank you. Odd that the same film can illicit such strong polarized opinions from just me.
I guess I would be more forgiving but like Apted Mendes knows better. These aren't fly by night directors.
Yes, as I said before I saw it (from reading the spoiler free reviews intently) and based on my own personal first viewing experience, this is definitely a 'polarizing' and controversial film. I wonder if that was intentional?
I will probably bounce back to center with my opinion after my third viewing.
My first I was elated that the film was finally here so yes more forgiving.
Second viewing oh yeah that really should have been better.
Third ..predicting but oh well it is still a fun experience.
I'm mad because as a Bond fan I don't want to enjoy MI:RN more. Or TDK. Or whatever...
I want to enjoy Bond. I want to be proud like I was leaving CR. Very disheartening.
There's always a silver lining though. Bab's/Michael are not idiots and DC is a proud man. The fact that there's more talk of him returning these past few days (and less about Mendes) likely means his pride is hurt. They all know this could have been better and they know the writers fc''d it up. They've been here before with QoS.
They'll be back. Sooner, and better. I guarantee it. B25 is going to reclaim the throne undoubtedly. It will seriously rock.
I agree with that. And don't get me wrong I still enjoyed the film and will still recommend it.
And it makes me happy to see so many fans rejuvenated and enthusiastic. I'm glad for that.
This whole SP ordeal from the early announcement of Logan's involvement (I was not happy at the time with that ..and I saw the writing on the wall then.) to the opening weekend in North America has been exhausting and at times infuriating as a lifelong fan.
I doubt it's Mendes idea. More likely Barbara Broccoli thought that with the rights to SPECTRE back in her hands there was little creative point having Blofeld as one dimensional. He needed to be fleshed out to give the character more believability. For better or for worse B Broccoli believes in 'character' first, not the spy elements. She said that in an interview, something like "it all starts with the character" - this is why Craig's Bond has backstory issues to resolve. Perhaps some fans are getting tired of it and it's time for a full-on Connery/Moore James Bond - one sent on a mission, no reference to his past, no inner demons to battle. But I suspect if you want that approach then you need B Broccoli to retire and I can't see that happening for a fairly long time. She is 55, she could produce Bond films for another ten, fifteen or more years. i doubt she'll ever drop the personal/backstory angle from future Bond films. She has reshaped the franchise in her image and it's not going to change. Well, I'll be amazed if it does!
I enjoyed it too......but it's not all that and it could have been much more....
Logan can be absolutely tremendous. Penny Dreadful is a work of art. He may not be suitable for Bond though (he can be heavy handed). Someone like Matthew Weiner (if it's true) could do wonders with Bond because Mad Men has brilliant and consistent characterizations without being overbearing. I've heard rumours about someone from Homeland as well (another brilliant show when it comes to characters)
If one is going to focus on making an action oriented film, then ensure that action is out of this world. That is what MI does so well.......they nail the action.
SF was more thriller/dark so action could and was secondary. With SP, action had to be front and centre, and what there was, was terribly dull and poorly done (and extremely expensive.......from what I heard.....unnecessarily). If you're going to get Olivier Schneider, then use him for something more inventive than a rehashed train fight (like the CR crane sequence for instance).
I believe it's the Mendes, Broccoli, and Craig combo.
Interesting interview with Mendes here. He gives a lot of credit to Campbell (as he should):
http://deadline.com/2015/11/sam-mendes-spectre-daniel-craig-james-bond-skyfall-q-and-a-1201609115/
If you read some of the negative critics, it is painfully obvious they don't know what a Bond film should be, and are also coming off as confused in what they are slating. One minute they want the Bond formula, yet they don't really know what it is, and slag it off when they see it.
I thought the praise heaped on SF was too much, and now many of the US critics have gone too much the other way with SP.
Bottom line, if SP had come out on the back of DAD, it would have been praised to the high heavens. As it has come off the back of the slightly pretentious SF, these obscure critics who don't understand Bond films are up in arms, and trying to attract attention.
RT should only allow respected reviews on their sites, and not give way to these stupid, sad, sorry, attention-seeking cretins in giving them a voice.
Lost another what?
I haven't watched Penny Dreadful yet ...I will.
Logan, Mendes, and Newman are not from the Bond genre and the like. And it shows. Although I liked Newman this time.
I swear I think the Bond theme shows up more in SP than TND but not so obvious and overbearing. Done I think correctly.
I agree. Brilliantly incorporated imho. Those complaining about Newman and Bond theme are nitpicking. There are other issues here. The scoring during the opening Mexico scene is worthy of being compared to the best in the canon imho.
Agreed fully with this.
And yes SP is flawed, like every Bond film before it, but so what. I personally think this will be the most re-watchable of all Craig's films, in the same fashion as GF, TB, LALD or OHMSS, which are also flawed.
Yes cleverly and appropriately incorporating the theme is one area they just as well as MI:RN.
Which reminds me MI:RN and SP were made about the same time and are eerily very similar which is a shame because as has already happened Bond is being accused of copying MI:RN which I don't believe was deliberate or even possible.
MI:RN itself copied or seemed to be inspired by both SF and TND. But that has been missed or forgotten by both critics and audiences.
But whether intentionally or not I still kept thinking watching SP hey I just saw this three months ago in MI:RN.
And I know that's not fair to Bond.
The first MI so blatantly copied the hook from GE but I doubt anyone remembers that either.
I didn't realize he meant it literally!
He did say that, didn't he. Well he was right with that.
True. Turan didn't like SP. But the overall point is, among the better respected film critics, SP has held its own.
Now that said, I can see why you (and anyone, for that matter) would have trouble with SP, @Birdleson. It is indeed a flawed film. The question becomes, to what extent do you buy into it, flaws and all. Many critics, like Peter Travers DID.
Me? I need to see SP again. Much of it resonated with me. I have been listening to the OST a lot the past two days, and I love it. The film had some terrific scenes and action sequences.
Here's what I think: if EON brings back Waltz (or ESB), then our view of SP might change. As a film that is intended to re-introduce us to ESB and Spectre, I can accept it--it will start look great as part of a two-film arc. But if this is it, if this is all Eon plans to do with ESB, then blah. My guess is that this is just the beginning. ESB will serve a recurring role from here on out--not in every Bond film, but a good number of them.
*Stupid, implausible plot
*Lazy score/title theme
*Lack of focus (on the better characters/actors)
*Record Length
*Anticlimactic sequences
Yes, the technical elements that made CR and SF (debatable) great films are missing. But you know what…SP skips the details and offers a treat to at least a significant segment of Bond fans who were missing something in the Craig era.
Yo Jimbo…What's the first rule of mass media?
That scene is cringeworthy. In my book, the worst moment in the entire James Bond history.
This terrible Bond-Blofeld childhood connection is something that can not be ignored. It's totally un-Bondian. I can get past plot holes and unbelievable things in the movies, because all Bond films have them, but this foster brother angle is something that sets up the villain's character and gives him motivation to become what he is. Therefore, I can't simply forget about it and just enjoy the good things in SPECTRE. And there are good things in SPECTRE.
Also, this retcon puts different perspective on the previous films, and IMO, makes them worse. Nevertheless, CR remains one of the best Bond films.
This "Bond-origin-and-past-comes-back-to-haunt-him" story really needs to end. It has gone far enough, and if you ask me, it wasn't necessary in the first place. There's a reason why Cubby Broccoli never did it. However, I'm afraid we'll be getting a sequel to this story, and another "this time it's personal" movie.
When the dust settles, SPECTRE will probably be viewed as a middle of the road Bond film. Like I said, there are good things in it and there are flaws. 6/10 is probably a realistic average score. The return of Blofeld and his backstory are the reasons SPECTRE is one of my least favourites. I do hope I'll like it more after subsequent viewings.
And yes it's not as bad as it's faults. You know both TND and DAD are attempts to return to traditional fun OTT Bond romps and have become fashionable to bash. Being a traditional Bond film when we have been wanting a traditional Bond film is not an excuse to lower your standards. TSWLM is a great example of a great OTT film.
I think you and the reviewer couldn't be more wrong. It's not true. The reason SP worked for me is that they ignored the things in SF that I so disliked. Mendes himself said that Bond was weak in SF, that he could not save M. I hated how Bond was scripted to be old, washed up, weak and ineffective. Dench and Bardem had all the lines, and the film was all about them, and not Bond. To me it wasn't even a Bond film and I walked out of SF feeling depressed with what they had done to Bond. They made a U turn with SP and went back to basics. I walked out of SP feeling great about Bond again. I hope others on the site who have not seen the film yet are not influenced by the endless bitching and nit picking by the posters (and critics) who wanted SF2 and are miserable that they didn't get it. Some of you are beginning to read like Rex Reed complaining about the lack of cars in the NY scenes.
I'm inclined to agree with your points. Madeleine as White's daughter is a genius move and enriches QoS, and I don't have a problem with Blofeld being behind that plot (aren't Guy Haines and C basically the same story?). And SF was Mendes' story, so as far as I'm concerned, he is free to ret-con that as much as he likes.
But leave CR alone. They could have kept the more subtle CR references: White's surveillance tape works because his character was actually part of CR.
One of the early TSWLM drafts had SPECTRE's new guard coming in and assassinating the old guard. This would have been the perfect way to push Quantum aside and let Spectre take over. As much as they like to bring back discarded elements from their scripts, MGW and Babs forgot their own history.
Old-school Blofeld is menacing because he is somehow above it all--recall, for example, the mini-gripe that literary Blofeld wouldn't have participated in the filmic OHMSS ski chase but would have left it to his underlings. In the novels, Blofeld/Bond never really became personal until Tracy died. SP makes a misstep because Blofeld/Bond is personal before Vesper, which is unbelievable to me because of the contortions it requires the previous three stories to endure.