Why was spectre marketed so differently to the final product?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Also why would m, a senior member in the seedy, dark, shadowy world of espionage give such a damn about the ethics of spying? Fretting about 1984 when his sole purpose is to infiltrate, corrupt, misinform, snoop, and damage foreign power.

    no wonder they wanted to close the 00 section with this guy in charge.

    @Matt007, in SF Mallory is Chairman of a committee with one of its express purposes being overseeing agency output, including MI6. He prides himself on being the voice of the people and is always ready to tell government types that they need to work for the people they serve, instead of going around them. I think there's part of him that really disagree's with Judi's M on how to run an agency, as she's far more willing to be cold and tactical without emotion than he is, far more driven by a boy scout code that is attentive to the people he serves as a representative. While Mallory is furious about the Mexico City explosion and wants Bond off duty for the danger he placed people in, Judi's M would have likely accepted Bond's action as what had to be done, and share her agent's sentiment that destroying a block was better than a whole stadium full of innocent people.

    Because Mallory is this way, it makes sense that he has a big distaste for the Nine Eyes program in SP. It's all being privately funded without the civilian population's notice, and is going through without any of the citizens of the joining nations hearing of it and how their lives and privacy will be impacted by it. "Unelected" power, as Mallory puts it. He has an issue with such a massive intelligence and surveillance body being approved with no oversight or democratic approval, especially since people like C wouldn't mind spying on everyone in the name of safety, with clear weak spots in the program that could be manipulated and corrupted by outside forces to use for evil. And of course, with Blofed in bed with C and helping to make the Nine Eyes plan seem necessary through SPECTRE's coordinated terrorist attacks, Mallory is right to be skeptical about the rightness of what he's being forced to be involved with thanks to the MI6/MI5 merger.

    So basically, Mallory as M is trying to bring a bit more diplomacy back into MI6 and spying in general. I think he's also attempting to keep things far more transparent and honest with the public when it comes to how they operative as a government body. His involvement in and support of the inquiry of Judi's M shows us that he is always pushing for an open dialogue about big intelligence issues, operational mistakes and moral quandaries that could all endanger the public or cheat them out of the truth they deserve to know.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Dalton would have ended bloody Silva on the spot, he NEVER WOULD HAVE LET SILVA TOUCH HIS LEGS let alone let bloody Silva talk to him like that.

    SP was marketed at first as just another Skyfall.
    After the first trailer I actually thought, wow they're going to make an even more boring film now.

    Trailers are deceiving or they show too much of a film.

    Usually I don't watch trailers exactly for that reason.
  • Posts: 1,631
    They marketed the film as Skyfall 2, as everyone seems to have taken to calling it, because they knew they had a terrible film on their hands and were wanting to remind everyone of that film that was almost universally adored and that raked in over a billion dollars. Can't fault them for that.

    It's a shame, though, because the film that the trailers tries to sell was something that I was actually interested in seeing. The OHMSS music really sold it and drove home some of what the film's themes should have been. Sadly, they couldn't bring it all together.
  • Posts: 1,680
    I dont think EON thought the movie was terrible. But they knew it wouldnt move the needle past Skyfall IMO.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    It was a shame the Pfeifer Broz talents were wasted. Their music for the trailers was amazing. I was expecting that kind of sound for the films score. I was expecting some use of OHMSS. I certainly wasn't expecting the copy and paste job we got. Ugh. That's my only problem with the film. The rest was enjoyable and fun enough for me. Not the best Bond film but I got a kick out of it but sadly the more and more I watch it, the more Newman's terrible score taints it. That and thanks to everyone pointing out the color filters I can't help but notice that too.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    EON knew as did anybody else that SP was a great cinematic achievement, and it got praise all over everywhere except in the US.
    It was the film event in 2015, only TFA went higher in that regard, and not even everywhere.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I really liked the first teaser trailer. It wasn't as good as the SF teaser with the cool thumping music at the end, but it was stylish enough. It really got me pumped for the film.

    The 2nd trailer is when I started to become a bit concerned. There was something about it that made me realize I wouldn't enjoy this film as much (which was eventually the case). I don't know what it was about this trailer that made me feel this way, but I started to have a bad feeling about the whole thing, which I kept to myself.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I thought the scene in sf when silva touches his leg was genius. It put bond in a genuinely uncomfortable situation and he had to think fast to respond to it. It showed his wit and a power threat we had never seen before.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I didn't like that scene either. The entire villain introduction, like the villain himself, in SF was weak.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    edited January 2017 Posts: 732
    patb wrote: »
    I watched SF again last night with the Mendes commentary and then the SP trailers again today. In a way, the trailers provide an look at alternative SP that perhaps fans may have preferred. Bond is seen romantically with Lucia (she was hardly in the movie) and looks to be a "guardian angel" for Madeleine ("I'm the best chance youv'e got") with no hint of the love that we see in the movie. There is no hint of slapstick with the only hunour (taking some leave) being dry/sarcastic as we saw in SF. C is hardly glimpsed and IMHO he was weak in the film and...most importantly, the only hint we had of the mess re trying to connect all of the DC series was "the author of all your pain" which could have been interpreted in so many different ways. Plus, the family connection was not referenced in the trailers and, the consensus seems to be that it simply was not required.
    The trailors do provide a consistant tone and give the impression of SF2 in terms of the character of Bond and the overall feel. Plus the visual feel of all the scenes look to be spot on. So the trailers do allow us to apply a filter to the movie and see what worked and IMHO, not ony the things that didn't but what actually spoiled it and tried to spoil the other movies. (When I watch SF now, I have to pretend SP does not exist)
    PS does Mendes need to re-record his SF commentary as he mentions that the story is about personal revenge etc but no mention that the bad guy was part of a bigger pitcure and under orders from Spectre. What a mess SP has left us
    I completely agree to your observations - same with me: I pretend, most of SP does not exist to avoid ruining the other movies for me which I like so much.

    But it also means (I wrote this elsewhere in this forum) if you cut out all the forced connection stuff plus most Blofeld scenes past the Spectre meeting you end up with a pretty decent movie that then matches the trailer-built expectations. I don't mind the less screentime of Belucci (even it's still a waste of talent) but the rest of the mentioned bogus elements ruin the movie. Get rid of them and SP feels like a good first part of a Spectre-themed story arch that continues in B25 and maybe B26.
  • Posts: 632
    patb wrote: »
    Just to balance, even with SF, I wince slighly with the humour there. Bond jokes about wing mirrors 20-30 seconds after seeing his colleague shot and bleeding to death. It cheapens/undermines the moment IMHO.

    I quite like that bit. It's the seasoned veteran annoyed with the rookie, even more so after what happened with Ronson a minute ago.

    The OHMSS music in the second trailer did lead to some expectations for me and had me anxious the last act of the movie, waiting for Madeline to get bumped off, especially with the way Blofeld was staring at Bond as he went to be by her side after granting him mercy. I still feel uneasy when I watch that scene.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Interested to know from more educated fans, was SP the first time that music from a prev Bond movie was used in a new trailer (I think it is), things like this dont happen by accident, a group of people sat round a table etc and thought, "God, we need to add something to the second trailer as there is not enough there and someone had the idea of grabbing IMHO the best Bond soundtrack ever and using it to promote SP (and going the extra distance of producing a completely new, bespoke arrangement). At the time, I and many others were sucker punched into thinking that this was a good thing (check out the excited posts) but, with hindsight, it was a gesture of desperation. They knew the movie was lacking.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I can't comment on whether it was the first time with certainty, but I think the parallels to OHMSS were intentional and were there from the very start in EON, Craig & Mendes' minds.

    "We have all the time in the world" was reportedly a line in the original leaked script. The 1st trailer featured some Christmasy music (just around the time Blofeld appears) which evokes "Do You Know How Christmas Trees are Grown" from OHMSS, the bullet through glass inference is clear and was discussed here at the time, Madeline as daughter of an unscrupulous (but not entirely terrible) man who directed Bond to Blofeld is similar to Tracy/Draco.

    In my view, they are stuck with this Blofeld angle. The man is famous for having killed Bond's wife, and unless they actually plan on remaking OHMSS, they won't be able to create that sort of resonance with his 'rebirth'. Therefore they are stuck with a character that can't be fully utilized as intended. It's quite a dilemma really.
  • Posts: 632
    Exactly. Going from killing to Tracy to impersonation an eccentric millionaire was kind of a step down. Despite the edge Connery had in the beginning of DAF, he lost it by the time he met "WW" in the hotel room. The Fleming OHMSS/YOLT (maybe TMWTGG) needs to be told properly, but I'm not sure if remake is the right thing, or even if you would call it that.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    That people who saw the second trailer, thought: OMG we have another OHMSS on our hand, it's that good.
    Go and add the music, it'll fit the film like a glove.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I used a bit of the OHMSS theme in my Rescore for the PTS Helicopter fight. :D
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @Murdock you know how much I love you and your work.

    A perfect job as usual, especially because you kept the end intact.

    The moment the SP theme kicks in while we are still in the helicopter cockpit with Bond is one of those rare special moments in the franchise when everything falls into place perfectly and gives you goosebumps galore.

    I'll never forget seeing and experiencing it for the first time.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Thanks @BondJasonBond006, I loved that end transition and had no reason to change it. :)
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited January 2017 Posts: 4,520
    That people who saw the second trailer, thought: OMG we have another OHMSS on our hand, it's that good.
    Go and add the music, it'll fit the film like a glove.

    The Incredibles teaser whas great too, but also not seen in final movie.



    Before i watched Spectre, i thaught we get new TSWLM movie because of spoiler of Mr White/Madeline. Something that stil can happen if turn out she is a snake.

  • Posts: 19,339
    Personally,I have to agree that the SP trailers sold a different film to the one I saw eventually.
    If they were going to use an older Bond film's music in the background to SP's trailer (it didn't even have its own score throughout the film,it used SF's !!) then it should have used an older Craig film,eg CR ,instead of abusing OHMSS,which has no relevance to Craig's tenure at all .
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited January 2017 Posts: 15,423
    I don't think the use of an old music is abuse in any way. I enjoyed the use of OHMSS theme in the trailer and wouldn't mind if it returns. My primary argument with SP was how it only turned out to be an all homage film playing its strengths on "Best of Bond" moments rather than telling a story. It just didn't.

    And Blofeld turning out to be a foster brother and knowing him since childhood is a party pooper for me. It was like High School Musical drama. I just want them to stop trying to imitate the implosion writing style of Gattiss and Moffat rather poorly and get cracking at something that screams Bond win relevance. Don't try to enforce "going different with this one" scenario. Just make a Bond film that is a Bond film.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    SPECTRE may be formulaic, an homage film and "Best of Bond". I can agree to that.

    The thing is, for the Craig era that can only be a good thing after QOS and SF and to some extend CR as well.

    It was needed, otherwise we would have ended up with something that slightly resembled Bond from the first 40 years, but not more, it could have been any common character from other action/thrillers.

    Another QOS or SF could have done Bond in as we knew him from DN to DAD (CR).

    For that alone I can appreciate SPECTRE to bits. Not to mention it is the most entertaining and fun Bond film since GE/TND.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    People were sick of down on his luck Bond, so they got a smooth, relaxed, in command man who didn't let things unfurl him. They were sick of no gadgets and other classic elements, so they got a suped up Aston and more vehicular set pieces. They wanted to see M, Moneypenny and Q return to familiar roles and placed in the background, which largely, they are. They wanted Craig to face a henchman who could beat him, and so he did.

    I can understand issues some have with execution, but the only thing I think didn't work in this film overall is the connection between Bond and Blofeld. If that wasn't there I'd be struggling to find things to complain about here, and the last thing I'd wish not to be there is Dan's performance or the return to a 60s spirit and sensibility. The SPECTRE meeting, the timeless fashion of Bond's suits, the operatic, high drama of Lucia's near-death experience and Bond going to Blofeld's lair and his cordial performance masking his displeasure with the man are all wonderful 60s flourishes that I love seeing in modern Bond. It's bloody hard to complain.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I agree,the problem with SP is Blofeld himself more than anything else,the 'brother' connection and how weak a villain he is after all the build up.
    I don't like Vauxhall Cross being blown up or the shooting down of the helicopter,but apart from that its fine.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I actually love him as a villain, I just don't think we needed the connection between him and Bond. Having his motivations being to get back at Bond for foiling all his past missions would've been enough, and why they didn't go that way is a bloody mystery.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The only thing I'd change is the foster-brother dialogue, it wasn't really more than that.

    But I love this film as much as GE, TLD, OHMSS or GF so I may be biased anyway.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Right, Bond wasn't even technically adopted by Hannes, he just stayed with him for a short time. But Blofeld uses "brother" to get at Bond just like Silva called M variations of mother. It does sour good moments, however.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The most irritating thing about the brother angle is listening to those who are still of the mind that SP as an organisation was created and exists solely to fuck with Bond. That's patently untrue and as a self-imposed concept makes things way worse, narratively, than they actually are. Yeah, the whole angle is largely redundant, but I don't see the point in exacerbating that by inventing more elements to be annoyed about.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    RC7 wrote: »
    The most irritating thing about the brother angle is listening to those who are still of the mind that SP as an organisation was created and exists solely to fuck with Bond. That's patently untrue and as a self-imposed concept makes things way worse, narratively, than they actually are. Yeah, the whole angle is largely redundant, but I don't see the point in exacerbating that by inventing more elements to be annoyed about.

    @RC7, right on the money. SP has certain character depth to it and characters that act in a layered way that some take at face-value and don't think about properly (critics included). This then creates a vastly different picture of the movie in their heads.

    Take for instance Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line. For people like me (and you) that line is a clear picture of Ernst's psyche that shows us he's so arrogant and thirsty to torture Bond that he is taking complete credit for all of the past traumas the spy has had, even those he wasn't the designer of, which includes Vesper and M. This personality trait is evidenced in previous scenes where his need for power and control is obvious, a nice gateway to supreme arrogance of the type he displays in that scene.

    To those that just take the comment on the face of it and don't think about it as it relates to his character, they think, "Oh, so Blofeld started SPECTRE to make Bond miserable."

    It's very, very frustrating.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I think the trick with these subtexts is to layer them on in a manner that the added meaning is noticeable to most viewers either instantly or on a 2nd viewing. That's a filmmaker's & an actor's job.

    Mendes & Waltz didn't quite handle it as well here as Bardem & Mendes did with the motherly (with angry ingrate son) messaging in SF, and that's where some of the trouble lies. So 'face value' is what many people are left with.

    EDIT: Part of the problem in my view is that Mendes was playing with an established and known character in Blofeld. One with a consequential narrative history. He should have realized that any tweaks could have met with resistance. That was not the case with Silva where he had carte blanche..
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