Why was spectre marketed so differently to the final product?

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  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    I think you're hitting on a salient point here, @bondjames. An issue I've noted before is that not everyone can pull of the wide range of characteristics from cold all the way to charming and witty like Sean managed at the start.

    By following the formula the scripts of these films also saddle their very different and uniquely skilled actors with doing or saying things that really don't suit them, all because they are expected to do it as Sean did, or amp up one of those elements of his performance. Moore couldn't have fought Grant like Sean, Sean couldn't have gotten into a clown suit and credibly created the tension Moore does (somehow), Timothy couldn't carry the charm of Pierce, Pierce couldn't display the high intensity and anger of Timothy, and Daniel can't wink at the camera and do wit outside of his dry wheelhouse.

    Each Bond and Bond actor is different, so I think the scripts, writers and producers should realize the strengths each man has and play to those instead of trying to make them into something they're not. It's why CR and QoS really work, as they are films where Dan does what he does best, the blunt instrument with heavy drama. SF and SP still have that, but the feeling is there that Dan was being pushed to do more wit that he was comfortable with, and in places it shows. I personally think SP is a big step up from SF in this way, however, as nothing in the former is as cringey as "put it on red"/"circle of life" in the latter.

    When you think about it, Moore is the only Bond actor that was allowed to play always to his strengths, for better or worse. In YOLT Sean was given stuff to do as Bond you could see he wasn't down with (Hey Sean, in this next scene you're going to play a Japanese fisherman, okay?), Timothy (like Dan now) experienced light moments and one-liners being forced on him, and Pierce could play what he was dictated to by the script most of the time, but in moments one-liners didn't work and on top of that, he deserved a hell of a lot more material-wise. In Moore's case the scripts suited his strengths and were written very much for him, never giving him stuff he couldn't pull off.

    I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but that's how I stand now on all this.

    I have to agree that each actor needs to be used for their uniqueness and strengths. I think that QOS was the only time I watched Craig without looking to the past. But, with the advent of SF, they were trying to make him wear the Connery skin more and it detracted from his abilities.

    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    QoS definitely gives off the vibes of a Terence Young Bond film, and part of that rests in Dan's ability to play subtlety like Sean did in DN, FRWL and TB. The plot is also a far more earnest and real world spy-thriller best seen in FRWL.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.

    And Craig never looked better than in that opening scene with the Aston. There was no time to analyse or think, because it took you right in. His lines also were unique to his style with the emphasis on believability. Why he changed so radically by SF was beyond me! Yes, it made tonnes of money, but it was too much of an unnecessary apology for the critical failing of QOS. I found the film trying to tick boxes so blatantly.

    And for what it is worth, the story of QOS pisses on SF and SP put together. That was original and grounded in a lot of truths about the nature of the CIA!

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.

    And Craig never looked better than in that opening scene with the Aston. There was no time to analyse or think. Why he changed so radically by SF was beyond me! Yes, it made tonnes of money, but it was too much of an unnecessary apology for the critical failing of QOS.
    I think you've answered it partly. That, along with the massive success of Nolan's Bat (which pulled in Bondian elements like Lucius Fox), Mendes's influence, and 4 long years changed him and his characterization.

    That's why I firmly believe they have to get these films back on a 3 year (if 2 is not possible) schedule. 4 years changes an actor and everyone around him. If Babs has a problem with that, then I look forward with keen anticipation to the next generation (Greg and Co.) taking over.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I really don't see a change in Bond, just a gradual development of a man. He's rough and hotheaded in some of CR and QoS both because he's new to it and second because he's dealing with the woman he loved betraying him and grieving for her death while going after Quantum's new scheme as he tries to move on. In SF that's all resolved and he's all on the mission with nothing holding him back. He's worked to earn his respect from M, and when he thinks she doesn't trust him to do his job anymore he reacts negatively against it, but comes back to her the moment she needs him. In SP he's as smooth as we've seen him, the epitome of a professional.

    We've seen this Bond go from rookie to professional agent in four films, nothing more, nothing less. Any gradations of character feel very natural to me and we never seen this Bond regress back to what he was at the beginning of CR, as he's learned lessons along the way that've made him more responsible and focused in heart and mind.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited January 2017 Posts: 9,020
    The jump from rookie to seasoned burned-out agent from QOS to SF felt unnatural and forced. It was only four years for Heaven's sake.
    Let alone the fact that he was a rookie at 38 years old and only then got his 00 licence. Sorry, but that simply didn't work (for me). Reboot nonsense gone awry.
    It didn't work cinematically.

    I got into special forces at 20. And I had to retire at 40. Or staying and getting a desk job, which wouldn't have worked for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Burnt out really isn't an apropos way to put it. More just disillusioned with his duty because he doesn't feel trusted or respected.

    As for his age at CR, Bond had a history of service elsewhere, as did the other Bonds (we see Sean, Roger and Pierce in naval uniform) and he simply made the jump to other work as a 00. We don't know why he made the switch, but it's clear he went from commander to 00 possibly for a new perspective on things.

    I'd love for Dan's Bond to actually be called "Commander Bond" by someone, but as of yet we've only seen his rank referred to in text.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    He had an intensity in the earlier entries that disappeared by SF. In a way, it's similar to Connery's maturation in GF vs. his more raw self in FRWL/DN, or even Moore in TSWLM vs. LALD/TMWTGG.

    I personally think he was still best in CR, because the subtleties of the script and the superb Eva Green allowed him to play both intense and smooth. QoS's more sparing script didn't give enough opportunities for that (they were few and far between).

    I believe they should have kept a little more intensity in the action sequences in SF. The Komodo sequence didn't work for me at all, given what I expect from a Craig film. It was sloppy. The YOLT office fight is the way to combine intensity with smoothness.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.

    And Craig never looked better than in that opening scene with the Aston. There was no time to analyse or think. Why he changed so radically by SF was beyond me! Yes, it made tonnes of money, but it was too much of an unnecessary apology for the critical failing of QOS.
    I think you've answered it partly. That, along with the massive success of Nolan's Bat (which pulled in Bondian elements like Lucius Fox), Mendes's influence, and 4 long years changed him and his characterization.

    That's why I firmly believe they have to get these films back on a 3 year (if 2 is not possible) schedule. 4 years changes an actor and everyone around him. If Babs has a problem with that, then I look forward with keen anticipation to the next generation (Greg and Co.) taking over.

    You raise some fine points and it was my falling out of love with the new series. I see the Nolan influence and the cinematography looked technically great, but left me cold. And is it me, but QOS looked like a Bond film more than SF.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.

    And Craig never looked better than in that opening scene with the Aston. There was no time to analyse or think. Why he changed so radically by SF was beyond me! Yes, it made tonnes of money, but it was too much of an unnecessary apology for the critical failing of QOS.
    I think you've answered it partly. That, along with the massive success of Nolan's Bat (which pulled in Bondian elements like Lucius Fox), Mendes's influence, and 4 long years changed him and his characterization.

    That's why I firmly believe they have to get these films back on a 3 year (if 2 is not possible) schedule. 4 years changes an actor and everyone around him. If Babs has a problem with that, then I look forward with keen anticipation to the next generation (Greg and Co.) taking over.

    You raise some fine points and it was my falling out of love with the new series. I see the Nolan influence and the cinematography looked technically great, but left me cold. And is it me, but QOS looked like a Bond film more than SF.
    QoS definitely has the colour mix of a classic Bond film. It has a nicely saturated palette. SF is more monotone, but is very sharp, perhaps on account of the digital cameras for the night work. It's almost high tech in places, most notably in Shanghai, and is very clear in the night scenes. I think they both have a Bondian flavour, but strangely I find QoS more 'old school' while SF is more 'modern'.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    I am in the minority, but QOS is the only Craig film that let's him be truly Craig. CR tried to use the Goldeneye techniques like the Aston DB5, which pulled me out of the film.
    I made a remark on another thread yesterday that upon a recent rewatch I thought QoS reminded me very much of DN. One way in which it does is Craig. He completely owns this film like Connery did DN. In both films, the actor in character is the dominant memory. CR & SF are more ensemble affairs.

    And Craig never looked better than in that opening scene with the Aston. There was no time to analyse or think. Why he changed so radically by SF was beyond me! Yes, it made tonnes of money, but it was too much of an unnecessary apology for the critical failing of QOS.
    I think you've answered it partly. That, along with the massive success of Nolan's Bat (which pulled in Bondian elements like Lucius Fox), Mendes's influence, and 4 long years changed him and his characterization.

    That's why I firmly believe they have to get these films back on a 3 year (if 2 is not possible) schedule. 4 years changes an actor and everyone around him. If Babs has a problem with that, then I look forward with keen anticipation to the next generation (Greg and Co.) taking over.

    You raise some fine points and it was my falling out of love with the new series. I see the Nolan influence and the cinematography looked technically great, but left me cold. And is it me, but QOS looked like a Bond film more than SF.
    QoS definitely has the colour mix of a classic Bond film. It has a nicely saturated palette. SF is more monotone, but is very sharp, perhaps on account of the digital cameras for the night work. It's almost high tech in places, most notably in Shanghai, and is very clear in the night scenes. I think they both have a Bondian flavour, but strangely I find QoS more 'old school' while SF is more 'modern'.

    I prefer saturated then it seems! Kudos to your technical knowledge.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    QoS has a great palette. Clearly the design goal from Forster down to the pyramid was to make it an elemental film. That's why the plot features a villain scheme revolving around the environment and Bond faces the elements in the form of fire, water, air, earth, etc all in one adventure. And of course the colors of the cinematography and production design use browns, oranges, blues; very earthy stuff. Even Bond's suits are very earthy, with ensembles that have palettes similar to cold, gray metals and browns that are reminiscent of soils.

    It's a fascinating film to study, truly. When we get to it in the Bondathon I'll be writing a damn book on that one.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I personally don't think it was clearly an elemental film whatever that is. I read thats what Forster went for, but to be honest he's probably the only one who cares on that level.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Speaking of earthy tones though I love bonds suit while waiting for the limo in Spectre. With the knitted tie
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Speaking of earthy tones though I love bonds suit while waiting for the limo in Spectre. With the knitted tie

    A tribute to the hacking suit that Sean wears in GF after the golf match, naturally.
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I personally don't think it was clearly an elemental film whatever that is. I read thats what Forster went for, but to be honest he's probably the only one who cares on that level.

    The themes are all there, really. And with Forster as director and crafter of the vision, it is a clear intention (he's also said so).
  • The whole brother aspect of the Blofeld story was handled horribly.
    Ruined the film. That's the kind of stuff the Austin Powers films made fun of, and then EON does it anyway. That was bloody awful.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The whole brother aspect of the Blofeld story was handled horribly.
    Ruined the film. That's the kind of stuff the Austin Powers films made fun of, and then EON does it anyway. That was bloody awful.

    To tell you the truth, I knew it was coming, based on the hits in the Teaser Trailer and the inclusion of the Oberhauser name. I never would have been cool with that aspect, but I certainly could have buried it away if I enjoyed the film itself.
    Precisely. It wasn't the concept (bad though it may have been) so much as the poor execution which damaged this film.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I spoiled that part of it for myself when I read articles mentioning Spectre's terrible last half. So I knew about the "brother" stuff in advance and hated it. I figured it was going to be as over dramatic and sappy as it was in Star Trek Into Darkness. Thankfully it wasn't and I was able to bury it away. Do I like it? No. I did like Waltz as Blofeld though.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    It's the reveal that's particularly poor. I don't know what they had in mind with that reported dinner scene that never was, but perhaps that could have played out better, with more exposition. The way it was done in the torture room didn't go down well with me. It was too cute by half.
  • The whole idea was ridiculous, and helped scuttle the story.
    Austin Powers kind of stuff, based on the bad Bond film contrivances.
    Just let him be Blofeld, with a bunch of villains, I would have bought that.
    Awful.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's the reveal that's particularly poor. I don't know what they had in mind with that reported dinner scene that never was, but perhaps that could have played out better, with more exposition. The way it was done in the torture room didn't go down well with me. It was too cute by half.

    I was waiting for a classic dinner scene once Bond had got to the crater,and was offered champagne before viewing the meteor.

    Once Blofeld appeared I presumed we would have a dinner scene,ala DN,OP or TMWTGG.
    It just seemed rushed after all that,and wasted a chance for great banter between Craig & Waltz.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.
  • Posts: 19,339
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.

    How frustrating....do we know anything about the scene ?

  • barryt007 wrote: »
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.

    How frustrating....do we know anything about the scene ?

    I think this is the right link, you can find it in this script

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6fivw3sjeiwd9uk/UNT B24_12.1.14_DB.pdf?dl=0

    From what I can remember it basically served the same purpose as the torture scene.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.

    How frustrating....do we know anything about the scene ?

    I think this is the right link, you can find it in this script

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6fivw3sjeiwd9uk/UNT B24_12.1.14_DB.pdf?dl=0

    From what I can remember it basically served the same purpose as the torture scene.

    I cant access that...so did they sit around a table etc ?

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.

    How frustrating....do we know anything about the scene ?
    The two drafts I've read interpreted it differently. In the first one I have, Blofeld forces Madeleine to eat the soap while a guard holds Bond at a gunpoint for trying to defend Madeleine.

    In the other one, they sit around, and Bond plays poker with Blofeld with nuts (actual nuts, Blofeld had a long paraphrasing of metaphors put forward with philosophy composed of his past and anger with Bond. And cuckoo is explained here better.) instead of chips and loses.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.

    Thanks for the info @ClarkDevlin ,I must try and get hold of those drafts.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I'd rather have torture and escape than poker with nuts.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.
    I agree. There was something gratuitous about that whole torture sequence for me. Like it was trying to play with my emotions, irrational fear of needles and all sorts of other things. A kind of torture porn if you will.

    I would have much preferred a refined but tense dinner discussion building to some sort of emotional blow up. I'm thinking along the lines of Tarantino's Django Unchained scene (also featuring Waltz) mixed in with traditional Bond elements.
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