Why was spectre marketed so differently to the final product?

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Comments

  • edited January 2017 Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.
    I agree. There was something gratuitous about that whole torture sequence for me. Like it was trying to play with my emotions, irrational fear of needles and all sorts of other things. A kind of torture porn if you will.

    I would have much preferred a refined but tense dinner discussion building to some sort of emotional blow up. I'm thinking along the lines of Tarantino's Django Unchained scene (also featuring Waltz) mixed in with traditional Bond elements.

    Now that would have been brilliant,and made the 3rd act a lot more palatable.

  • GBFGBF
    edited January 2017 Posts: 3,197
    I don't really mind the torture scene itself. The main problem is that it has no payoff and that the escape is so extremely lame. There is quite a big build-up but then there is nothing... The escape feels more like coming from a Rambo film and I was not sure whether they took it seriously. At first viewing, I really thought it was a joke. But even worse is that they just leave the crater and move back to London where we have another unsatisfying climax. Why do they introduce us in the amazing crater set when it is not really used as a villain lair?? Just think of the volcano lair in YOLT which - crazy as it was - was used so wonderfully in that film. How awfully bad is a lair, however, if a single man can destoy it by use of a simple gadget and a few shots.
  • Posts: 19,339
    and where the hell did all the SPECTRE operators go so that Bond could escape so easily,there were at least about 50 in the monitoring room ...?

    And I must say Bond's accuracy shooting those useless SPECTRE guards,just after having his head drilled 3 times,was quite remarkable....
    8-| 8-|
  • Posts: 4,617
    To compare the two, the initial "banter" between Bond and Silva allowed the pace of the movie to be slowed down and the two actors go face to face with nothing but their words and body language to do combat. These types of scenes IMHO have been crucual within the history of Bond movies (right from Dr No) to show how Bond and the bad guy can compete at intelectual level rather than physical. They also provide an opportinity for a change of pace and to turn up the level of tension so the climax has more meaning. I think that many agree that SP was lacking in this area and the card game (nuts or not), if well written, could have really added something to the movie rather than the torture scene. A missed opportunity.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.
    I agree. There was something gratuitous about that whole torture sequence for me. Like it was trying to play with my emotions, irrational fear of needles and all sorts of other things. A kind of torture porn if you will.

    I would have much preferred a refined but tense dinner discussion building to some sort of emotional blow up. I'm thinking along the lines of Tarantino's Django Unchained scene (also featuring Waltz) mixed in with traditional Bond elements.

    It was gratuitous and Craig looked like a ventriloquist 's dummy with that knob-like helmet. He looked incredibly short in that chair. Poor man's Clockwork Orange by Kubrick. The influence was too obvious.


    The more money a Bond film has, the less creative. How much did Goldfinger or Thunderball cost? Mr Broccoli and Saltzman delivered more for less.

    I miss the old days more now than ever!

  • edited January 2017 Posts: 19,339
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.
    I agree. There was something gratuitous about that whole torture sequence for me. Like it was trying to play with my emotions, irrational fear of needles and all sorts of other things. A kind of torture porn if you will.

    I would have much preferred a refined but tense dinner discussion building to some sort of emotional blow up. I'm thinking along the lines of Tarantino's Django Unchained scene (also featuring Waltz) mixed in with traditional Bond elements.

    It was gratuitous and Craig looked like a ventriloquist 's dummy with that knob-like helmet. He looked incredibly short in that chair. Poor man's Clockwork Orange by Kubrick. The influence was too obvious.


    The more money a Bond film has, the less creative. How much did Goldfinger or Thunderball cost? Mr Broccoli and Saltzman delivered more for less.

    I miss the old days more now than ever!

    I just laughed out loud when I saw that comment,and got funny looks from others in the office here haha

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    In one of the scripts, the one before the poker with nuts, Blofeld straps Bond to a solar furnace and leaves him to melt to death while taking Madeleine with him to London. In this version, Q was also captured (happened during the Alpine chase segment, Bond arrives to see Q's hotel room is empty but is left with seeing his laptop showing SPECTRE's logo), who tells him that his watch releases a laser beam if I remember right, that's how Bond escapes and takes Q back to England, chasing Blofeld that leads up to the London climax.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    barryt007 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The 1st draft sounds a bit excessive but the 2nd one sounds interesting and would allow good dialogue between Bond and Blofeld....what a shame.
    I agree. There was something gratuitous about that whole torture sequence for me. Like it was trying to play with my emotions, irrational fear of needles and all sorts of other things. A kind of torture porn if you will.

    I would have much preferred a refined but tense dinner discussion building to some sort of emotional blow up. I'm thinking along the lines of Tarantino's Django Unchained scene (also featuring Waltz) mixed in with traditional Bond elements.

    It was gratuitous and Craig looked like a ventriloquist 's dummy with that knob-like helmet. He looked incredibly short in that chair. Poor man's Clockwork Orange by Kubrick. The influence was too obvious.


    The more money a Bond film has, the less creative. How much did Goldfinger or Thunderball cost? Mr Broccoli and Saltzman delivered more for less.

    I miss the old days more now than ever!

    I just laughed out loud when I saw that comment,and got funny looks from others in the office here haha

    Thank you @barryt007 It had to be said. Give me the Craig of QOS anyday!

  • Posts: 1,314
    Reading the poker scene with hazelnuts - it sounds better than it is. In fact the denouement is naff, but some of the build up good. It enphasises the cuckoo, bonds relationship with Oberhauser better, but the ending is poor. And unbelievable motivationally for blofeld
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Not to mention in the script it's Bond who exposes Blofeld's identity. In his face.
  • Posts: 1,314
    That bit I could live with though to be honest. It's more the fact that blofeld has been waiting 20 years to play cards because he lost or didn't get to play with dad.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Exactly, it's just bad.
  • Posts: 1,680
    I would have liked to see Oberhauser & Bond have a desert themed dinner & play cards in a tense dark suspensful atmosphere. With Bond wondering what the agenda is & the result of a win or loss situation. I would have kept the control room & torture scene still too the film would have benefitted from this as Oberhauser was low on screen time.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @Tuck91, I think that lack of screen time also assists in what I don't like about Waltz's Blofeld - what he's given to work with isn't terribly exciting or inventive, and the actual amount he's given to work with is very little.
  • Posts: 1,680
    The reception of Blofeld may warrant him sitting out the next film. I wouldnt be suprised. They can easily write him out of the next film. Perhaps the new head of Spectre may be the villian of the next one.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I just think the next time he appears they'll emphasize the great parts of him and dilute what didn't catch audiences.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I totally agree on screen time but also speech time. I noticed this with silva. He has a great intro, a scene with M in the glass gaol, then is almost silent for the remainder of the film.

    A good villain needs enough time and things to say to build up a rapport with bond. If we'd had a dinner scene we could have cut scooby doo at the end

    I also like the live terrorism examples in the rejected script where they watch the explosion and aftermath
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I can't comment on whether it was the first time with certainty, but I think the parallels to OHMSS were intentional and were there from the very start in EON, Craig & Mendes' minds.

    "We have all the time in the world" was reportedly a line in the original leaked script. The 1st trailer featured some Christmasy music (just around the time Blofeld appears) which evokes "Do You Know How Christmas Trees are Grown" from OHMSS, the bullet through glass inference is clear and was discussed here at the time, Madeline as daughter of an unscrupulous (but not entirely terrible) man who directed Bond to Blofeld is similar to Tracy/Draco.

    In my view, they are stuck with this Blofeld angle. The man is famous for having killed Bond's wife, and unless they actually plan on remaking OHMSS, they won't be able to create that sort of resonance with his 'rebirth'. Therefore they are stuck with a character that can't be fully utilized as intended. It's quite a dilemma really.

    "We have all the time in the world," was the final line of a draft dated Dec. 1, 2014, one week before principal photography began.
  • barryt007 wrote: »
    @barryt007, originally there was a dinner scene there. Then they later changed it and injected an element from Colonel Sun instead.

    How frustrating....do we know anything about the scene ?

    During dinner, Blofeld recounts the story of how, as kids, he and Bond were playing poker. Blofeld had a really, really good hand. But he let Bond bluff him.

    Thus, was Bond's arch foe born.

    No, I am not joking.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It would have been interesting to have a part of the film where Bond is in an area about to be targeted by SPECTRE for a terrorist attack (like how they bomb South Africa to scare them into supporting Nine Eyes) and he is there to experience the very moment of the attack and feel its aftermath. He could have tracked a bombmaker SPECTRE had hired to detonate the blast and tailed him to the location where the man planted explosives, but something would happen to make him too late to stop it. We could've gotten shots of him covered in ash and soot, picking himself up after being knocked back by a blast, his hearing blown out as people are bloodied and screaming around him.

    It would have been dark, but I can't think of a better way to show audiences the power of SPECTRE and how far they'd be willing to go to get what they need.
  • Posts: 676
    M_Balje wrote: »
    The Incredibles teaser whas great too, but also not seen in final movie.

    I'd never seen that before. Great find. Barry was lined up to do the score for the film at one point, but dropped out.
    I actually love him as a villain, I just don't think we needed the connection between him and Bond. Having his motivations being to get back at Bond for foiling all his past missions would've been enough, and why they didn't go that way is a bloody mystery.
    Agreed. You'd think the "personal" element would have been strong enough without the brother thing. Blofeld could be vengeful towards Bond for ruining Spectre's plans in CR and QOS, and Bond investigating the terror attacks/Nine Eyes is the last straw.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    It would have been interesting to have a part of the film where Bond is in an area about to be targeted by SPECTRE for a terrorist attack (like how they bomb South Africa to scare them into supporting Nine Eyes) and he is there to experience the very moment of the attack and feel its aftermath. He could have tracked a bombmaker SPECTRE had hired to detonate the blast and tailed him to the location where the man planted explosives, but something would happen to make him too late to stop it. We could've gotten shots of him covered in ash and soot, picking himself up after being knocked back by a blast, his hearing blown out as people are bloodied and screaming around him.

    It would have been dark, but I can't think of a better way to show audiences the power of SPECTRE and how far they'd be willing to go to get what they need.
    "You're hired!"

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    I think that's a bit too harrowing for a Bond film. The imagery of Bond witnessing and failing to prevent terror would not translate well to lazy Sunday afternoon viewing.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think that's a bit too harrowing for a Bond film. The imagery of Bond witnessing and failing to prevent terror would not translate well to lazy Sunday afternoon viewing.

    Maybe not in most of the other films, but this is a series where those things happen (in the Craig era, I mean). In the movie SPECTRE talk about trafficking women, controlling the market for vaccines of deadly diseases, and all other sorts of dastardly acts. One thing the movie needed more of, and that no films with SPECTRE ever have, is a direct moment to feel the fear of SPECTRE's control. We see South Africa burning on TV, but I want to truly witness it beside Bond. You could've downplayed the human suffering to avoid going too "dark," but like all the other Blofeld featured movies, we need more reason to fear him.

    I will say that I am often unsettled by Waltz's Blofeld in a way I only ever was with Savalas. I get goosebumps when Blofeld hypnotizes the women in OHMSS much in the way I do when Waltz's Blofeld has such control over his servants that they pulls his chair in and out for him, move his mic forward, and even speak and act for him. In the Moroccan headquarters, SPECTRE workers are buzzing around Blofeld like bees in a hive, and like the Queen, he flips a metaphorical switch in their heads. The moment he wants them to stand attention they immediately stop what they're doing, stand up in the exact same robotic way, and turn toward him even more robotically like programmed drones. That freaks me the hell out, and I love it. It's like Blofeld has used that torture chair on all of them and has drilled their brains so severely over time that he has control over all of them and their every response, like Pavlov and his dogs.

    I don't feel that fear or undercurrent of menace with Pleasence or Gray, and I think Savalas' Blofeld is aided by being in one of the greatest films in the series. I still hold that Waltz's Blofeld is solid, however, and is underrated.

    I still have an issue with the fact that this Blofeld's anger at Bond foiling all his past endeavors wasn't more stressed. It's clear that that is an obvious and large part of Blofeld's motivation for wanting Bond dead, as he sees him like a pest who won't die, but I wanted to really see his anger come out more regarding how 007 was able to single-handedly drive Quantum into the ground and shake up SPECTRE's ranks in major ways. It's there, but I wanted more, just like I always want more in these SPECTRE-featured movies. Briefings with Blofeld are grand, but I want to see the direct power of the organization in the small way FRWL shows us.

    In the next film, if Dan returns, I want to see Blofeld and SPECTRE exert that influence. I want to see a court room scene with Blofeld answering for his crimes, and in the cryptic words he repeats to the judge and jury, you know he's got them all bought, or he's set up a way to blackmail or blow his way out of capture. Bond needs to feel powerless in the wake of Blofeld, and the film could even depict the very real world lives of high-profile criminals, who get plea deals for the information they have while the victims of their acts have no proper justice. In Casino Royale, Le Chiffre comments to Bond that he would be welcomed with open arms at MI6 because of the information and connections he had, and with Blofeld EON could finally show Bond how true that statement is. Bond leaves MI6 with his last act leading to the arrest of the man responsible for his biggest and most dangerous missions, yet when Blofeld is captured he makes a deal with the government to spill his guts to them in return for being treated to princely privilege, and the government listen to him.

    Bond's final official act of bravery and heroism to stop Blofeld from being the king of the world leads him to being a king anyway, just with a different crown. Despite being chained up in capture, Blofeld would be offering the services and information from his blabbing lips for a price and all the nice treatment he can get, while government officials fall on his every word as they beg the man to spill about the planned terror attack he knows is coming in a major English region near them, and a similar strike coming in the United States shortly thereafter. Instead of delivering true punishment to Blofeld, the government would be siding with the maniac as a reluctant yet prized partner and resource of information for them. As Blofeld says in the movie, knowledge is all, and he's knowledge incarnate. It'd be Bond and Mallory's greatest nightmare, where the two traditionalists realize that their modern world no longer hold the beliefs and principles they do, other honor and justice and truth. And maybe it never has.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    I think that's a bit too harrowing for a Bond film. The imagery of Bond witnessing and failing to prevent terror would not translate well to lazy Sunday afternoon viewing.

    Maybe not in most of the other films, but this is a series where those things happen (in the Craig era, I mean). In the movie SPECTRE talk about trafficking women, controlling the market for vaccines of deadly diseases, and all other sorts of dastardly acts. One thing the movie needed more of, and that no films with SPECTRE ever have, is a direct moment to feel the fear of SPECTRE's control. We see South Africa burning on TV, but I want to truly witness it beside Bond. You could've downplayed the human suffering to avoid going too "dark," but like all the other Blofeld featured movies, we need more reason to fear him.

    I will say that I am often unsettled by Waltz's Blofeld in a way I only ever was with Savalas. I get goosebumps when Blofeld hypnotizes the women in OHMSS much in the way I do when Waltz's Blofeld has such control over his servants that they pulls his chair in and out for him, move his mic forward, and even speak and act for him. In the Moroccan headquarters, SPECTRE workers are buzzing around Blofeld like bees in a hive, and like the Queen, he flips a metaphorical switch in their heads. The moment he wants them to stand attention they immediately stop what they're doing, stand up in the exact same robotic way, and turn toward him even more robotically like programmed drones. That freaks me the hell out, and I love it. It's like Blofeld has used that torture chair on all of them and has drilled their brains so severely over time that he has control over all of them and their every response, like Pavlov and his dogs.

    I don't feel that fear or undercurrent of menace with Pleasence or Gray, and I think Savalas' Blofeld is aided by being in one of the greatest films in the series. I still hold that Waltz's Blofeld is solid, however, and is underrated.

    I still have an issue with the fact that this Blofeld's anger at Bond foiling all his past endeavors wasn't more stressed. It's clear that that is an obvious and large part of Blofeld's motivation for wanting Bond dead, as he sees him like a pest who won't die, but I wanted to really see his anger come out more regarding how 007 was able to single-handedly drive Quantum into the ground and shake up SPECTRE's ranks in major ways. It's there, but I wanted more, just like I always want more in these SPECTRE-featured movies. Briefings with Blofeld are grand, but I want to see the direct power of the organization in the small way FRWL shows us.

    In the next film, if Dan returns, I want to see Blofeld and SPECTRE exert that influence. I want to see a court room scene with Blofeld answering for his crimes, and in the cryptic words he repeats to the judge and jury, you know he's got them all bought, or he's set up a way to blackmail or blow his way out of capture. Bond needs to feel powerless in the wake of Blofeld, and the film could even depict the very real world lives of high-profile criminals, who get plea deals for the information they have while the victims of their acts have no proper justice. In Casino Royale, Le Chiffre comments to Bond that he would be welcomed with open arms at MI6 because of the information and connections he had, and with Blofeld EON could finally show Bond how true that statement is. Bond leaves MI6 with his last act leading to the arrest of the man responsible for his biggest and most dangerous missions, yet when Blofeld is captured he makes a deal with the government to spill his guts to them in return for being treated to princely privilege, and the government listen to him.

    Bond's final official act of bravery and heroism to stop Blofeld from being the king of the world leads him to being a king anyway, just with a different crown. Despite being chained up in capture, Blofeld would be offering the services and information from his blabbing lips for a price and all the nice treatment he can get, while government officials fall on his every word as they beg the man to spill about the planned terror attack he knows is coming in a major English region near them, and a similar strike coming in the United States shortly thereafter. Instead of delivering true punishment to Blofeld, the government would be siding with the maniac as a reluctant yet prized partner and resource of information for them. As Blofeld says in the movie, knowledge is all, and he's knowledge incarnate. It'd be Bond and Mallory's greatest nightmare, where the two traditionalists realize that their modern world no longer hold the beliefs and principles they do, other honor and justice and truth. And maybe it never has.

    Can't quite remember, but wasn't that an episode of Sherlock?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Mendes4Lyfe, are you referring to
    Moriarty being used by Mycroft as a source for some operations in return for information on Sherlock?

    That wasn't really a major plot line at all, a random dialogue, whereas I'd like to see this idea take center stage as a main theme of the story.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2017 Posts: 8,399
    @Mendes4Lyfe, are you referring to
    Moriarty being used by Mycroft as a source for some operations in return for information on Sherlock?

    That wasn't really a major plot line at all, a random dialogue, whereas I'd like to see this idea take center stage as a main theme of the story.
    I'm pretty sure there was an episode where Moriarty was captured and he says he knows of some attack or something, and then they are forced to play ball. My memory of this is very fuzzy, though.
    I've always viewed the manipulation and extortion side of SPECTRE as an organisation more interesting than its capacity to unleash havoc. It's how they operate, like a silent terror. In operation Thunderball for instance, the public weren't aware of Blofeld or his plan. They even arranged for Big Ben to strike, as a code. That's what makes them a sophisticated criminal organisation in my eyes.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Mendes4Lyfe, In Sherlock season 2
    Moriarty finds out about a bomb plot on an airplane, and exposes it to screw with the British. But he didn't give them information while under duress, or aid them, he actually ruined their entire operation from the ground up and let the terror cell planning the attack know they knew it was coming.

    As for the SPECTRE aspect, I think that their manipulation and extortion and their ability to wreak havoc are direct bedfellows of one another. They work in secret through Dr. No, but their manipulation causes the slight collapse of the space program. Their plan in From Russia with Love is possibly the most secret, but the result is a massive slandering of the British service and all the implications that come of them stealing from the Russian consulate. In Thunderball, they again operate only through the government at a high level, but if they didn't get what they wanted they'd nuke Miami for Christ's sake, the biggest havoc any villain could hope to unleash. And in You Only Live Twice, they again manipulate super secretly, but the result of their scheme is the havoc of World War III between the major world powers.

    So the 60s films showed SPECTRE's capacity to manipulate and extort, with their potential to cause destruction always on the table. It's just that we never see the latter, since Bond always stops it.

    I think Bond 25 could give us both, showing Blofeld's ability to blackmail and be everywhere at once, while also unleashing his resources on anyone trying to get at him. In a since, giving us two for the price of one. I think SP already did a great job of telling us their power, with the Rome meeting divulging all their massive operations in every sector of business you could imagine, to the point that they controlled medicine for most major diseases and had plants inside governments everywhere. I just want to see what else they can do with those resources first hand, and to see Bond faced with their power until he actually thinks they're too big to stop.
  • Posts: 676
    Instead of delivering true punishment to Blofeld, the government would be siding with the maniac as a reluctant yet prized partner and resource of information for them. As Blofeld says in the movie, knowledge is all, and he's knowledge incarnate. It'd be Bond and Mallory's greatest nightmare, where the two traditionalists realize that their modern world no longer hold the beliefs and principles they do, other honor and justice and truth. And maybe it never has.
    Eek, that doesn't sound like very much fun. Haven't recent Bond films "deconstructed" Bond/MI6/England etc enough? Couldn't they drop the navel gazing and just get on with it?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Milovy wrote: »
    Instead of delivering true punishment to Blofeld, the government would be siding with the maniac as a reluctant yet prized partner and resource of information for them. As Blofeld says in the movie, knowledge is all, and he's knowledge incarnate. It'd be Bond and Mallory's greatest nightmare, where the two traditionalists realize that their modern world no longer hold the beliefs and principles they do, other honor and justice and truth. And maybe it never has.
    Eek, that doesn't sound like very much fun. Haven't recent Bond films "deconstructed" Bond/MI6/England etc enough? Couldn't they drop the navel gazing and just get on with it?

    It just seems like a natural story to tell. If ever there was a time, it's with Craig, because next time around I don't think depth and storytelling will be this stressed.
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