SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 19,339
    The unfortunate thing for me is ,the more i watch SP,the more questions i have,and the more inconsistancies and plot holes appear....which i didnt find so much with CR,QOS and SF.

    It makes me wonder if the films are heading in a dangerous direction ...
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Much as I enjoy SP the plot makes little sense and some elements just seem shoehorned in just to keep the story moving.

    I wonder how audiences would have reacted if SP had the 'Brazil' ending, in which the scene with Bond and Madeleine driving off into the sunset segued into a shot of Bond still strapped in the torture chair with a catatonic grin on his face and Blofeld saying "No, we've lost him..."

    Sort of a happy ending! >:)
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    Hahaha @wizard I had no idea doing just the pre title sequence would feel like such a chore. I do still love spectre, but as time goes by the frustration that it could've been so much better is growing. I know that we could do this with every film but still, we have a brillaint actor at the helm, it's a shame the whole trying to tie in all 4 of his films was done so poorly. Not to mention the rest of the amateurish script writing. I'll get round to adding my ideas for the rest of the film when I can find the time. Judging by the time it took me to note what I didn't like about the PTS I will probably have to take annual leave or something...
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited September 2016 Posts: 8,205
    After watching both films, back to back, last week, I would have hired the entire Rogue Nation behind the camera crew. ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Just replace Thomas Newman honestly. Spectre would have benefited with a much better score. Dammit, Why couldn't Mendes be best friends with his older brother David Newman? he's more talented! :))
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    Just replace Thomas Newman honestly. Spectre would have benefited with a much better score. Dammit, Why couldn't Mendes be best friends with his older brother David Newman? he's more talented! :))

    To be honest even just have the bloke earn his money. I didn't mind SF's score but the guy just took the piss with SP.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Murdock wrote: »
    Just replace Thomas Newman honestly. Spectre would have benefited with a much better score. Dammit, Why couldn't Mendes be best friends with his older brother David Newman? he's more talented! :))

    To be honest even just have the bloke earn his money. I didn't mind SF's score but the guy just took the piss with SP.

    Oh I agree. SF was pretty meh to me but at least it was original. SP on the other hand has no excuse.
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Seve wrote: »
    I don't think Blo-bro is of itself a bad idea, but the execution is poor, we would need to see a lot more backstory character development to make it work, perhaps told in flashback in a conversation between Bond and the girl on the train before they were so rudely interrupted by Batista? Or by Blofeld himself in conversation with the girl in between torturing Bond, but with something more meaty to back up the mere fact of it

    This was an attempt to give Blofeld a reboot in the same way that Bond was given a reboot in Casino Royale, but they couldn’t devote the necessary amount of screen time to it, as the audience expects Bond to be front and center from the get go. To succeed they would have had give Blofeld as much back story development time as the Green Goblin or Dr Octopus received in Spider-man or The Joker and whoever the villains were in the third Chris Nolan Batman movie. But what would a Bond audience have made of that?

    The worst part is they stole the idea from...

    "Austin prepares to shoot Dr. Evil, when Nigel Powers appears and reveals Dr. Evil and Austin are brothers"

    OMG the irony of it all!

    One of my gripes with SF and SP is that the running time is so long but Mendes rushes or compresses a lot of the story telling. They convey the odd feeling of being very long watches but with strangly rushed plots. I'd say this of SF in particular.

    In SP Mendes tries to do too much. As everyone has noted, two endings kills it and are totally unnecessary. Just as the two villains weren't really required either. C is a bit pointless. Or focus on C and leave Brofeld in the backgroudb
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 676
    When I walked out of seeing Spectre for the first time, I had two thoughts: 1) I noticed how closely the film followed Bond, but never closely enough to reveal his emotional stakes or even what he's looking for; and 2) I couldn't describe the story if you asked me to.

    Bond never shares his "secret" suspicion about Oberhauser with his colleagues or (more damningly) the audience. He's aggressively pursuing something - basically creating an assignment for himself where there was none. Yet we don't know what he's pursuing, and when we finally find out, he doesn't register a single thought or feeling about any of it.

    Of course you can't describe the plot, cause it's just Bond chasing an inconsequential "secret" through a random patchwork of locations, stunts and characters (I use that word loosely). The only thing that plays like a proper story is the Nine Eyes subplot, but that doesn't even register as it doesn't concern Bond until way too late in the runtime.

    Spectre is a cold, confusing mess. What would I have done differently? I don't know, maybe throw out everything except the PTS and try again.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Murdock wrote: »
    Just replace Thomas Newman honestly. Spectre would have benefited with a much better score. Dammit, Why couldn't Mendes be best friends with his older brother David Newman? he's more talented! :))

    Maybe Daddy loved David more.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Thomas Newman's score for SP was marginally better Than his SF score ImO but that's not saying much
  • Posts: 2,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    Thomas Newman's score for SP was marginally better Than his SF score ImO but that's not saying much

    Whilst I like both scores, it is somewhat disappointing that there are a lot of noticeable Skyfall cues in Spectre, but I think it is solely unfair to blame Newman for that.

    We know the post production period for Spectre was shorter than Skyfall's - and I think there were rumours that they were still shooting in early October, a few weeks before the movie opened. Mendes is on record as saying they substantially re-edited the film after test screening it, and Newman himself is on record saying the cut of the film went down to the wire. Modern moves don't have things such as 'locked down edits' until the absolute final day - it must drive composers mad.

    So, we're in a position where Newman has scored 'a' cut of the film, potentially in August/September, only to find himself having to rework substantial chunks of it - in a very short space of time - after the second substantial re-edit following the test screening. Not forgetting the sound has to be mixed before the film is finished, he probably though, to save time and still deliver a score that matches the action on screen - he'd use parts of the Skyfall score.

    Not a nice situation to find yourself in, but if thats the hand your ultimately dealt, thats what you've gotta do.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited September 2016 Posts: 2,252
    Mallory wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    We know the post production period for Spectre was shorter than Skyfall's - and I think there were rumours that they were still shooting in early October, a few weeks before the movie opened. Mendes is on record as saying they substantially re-edited the film after test screening it, and Newman himself is on record saying the cut of the film went down to the wire. Modern moves don't have things such as 'locked down edits' until the absolute final day - it must drive composers mad.

    I understand Barry had time pressure on TMWTGG too. And that score turned out ok

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    w2bond wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    We know the post production period for Spectre was shorter than Skyfall's - and I think there were rumours that they were still shooting in early October, a few weeks before the movie opened. Mendes is on record as saying they substantially re-edited the film after test screening it, and Newman himself is on record saying the cut of the film went down to the wire. Modern moves don't have things such as 'locked down edits' until the absolute final day - it must drive composers mad.

    I understand Barry had time pressure on TMWTGG too. And that score turned out ok


    Well, yes in the 60s, they produced a Bond film every year and there was not such a time pressure. Until 1989, they at least made a Bond film every two years and still had a great score. Meanwhile, probably even three years are too short.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I don't have a problem with the recycled cues. It's been done before. For example, the 2nd time someone heard the 007 theme (which was in TB), they may also have felt that Barry was copying himself (it was first used in FRWL).

    The issue to me really is that Newman used some of the more disappointing and dull sounding cues from SF in SP. Moreover, those repetitive sounding themes didn't work quite as well in the SP scenes as they did in the respective SF scenes. So it just felt tacked on, and in the case of the London finale, just a little too loud, monotonous and distracting.
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 382
    @Milovy

    great observations/analysis
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited September 2016 Posts: 15,715
    My problem is not Newman re-using cues, but that he does that instead of using the f*cking Bond theme full blast in action scenes. The only time in the last 4 films the Bond theme was played outside of the end credits was the DB5 reveal in SF. I wouldn't care at all if Newman's SP score was entirely taken from SF (without a single new track), if they put the Bond theme full blast several times in the film.

    I was OK with the Bond theme absent in CR. In QOS it was wearing thin, in SF it was criminal, in SP it's downright insulting. Why is it I must sit through 2.5 hours of film before I get to hear (arguably) the most exciting theme song in movie history?
  • Posts: 2,162
    GBF wrote: »
    w2bond wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    We know the post production period for Spectre was shorter than Skyfall's - and I think there were rumours that they were still shooting in early October, a few weeks before the movie opened. Mendes is on record as saying they substantially re-edited the film after test screening it, and Newman himself is on record saying the cut of the film went down to the wire. Modern moves don't have things such as 'locked down edits' until the absolute final day - it must drive composers mad.

    I understand Barry had time pressure on TMWTGG too. And that score turned out ok


    Well, yes in the 60s, they produced a Bond film every year and there was not such a time pressure. Until 1989, they at least made a Bond film every two years and still had a great score. Meanwhile, probably even three years are too short.

    Making a movie in the 1960s is worlds away from how movies are made today though.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I seem to recall Barry complaining about the time pressures more than once in Burlingame's The Music of James Bond book.
  • CigaretteLeiterCigaretteLeiter United States
    Posts: 107
    Milovy wrote: »
    Gettler wrote: »
    That drilling needed so much more after it. Bond should have stumbled. CR had him recovering in a hostpital. Hell even in SF he was still off kilter after the PTS.
    Yes, after Craig has been shown to be vulnerable and breakable in his other films, to have the horrific drill apparatus do nothing was a major misstep.

    I've been thinking that maybe the drill's effects weren't supposed to be immediate. Maybe in Bond 25 or 26, should we get a proper adaptation of YOLT, when Bond confronts Blofeld for the last time, he says "What makes you think this plan will work? I've foiled every one of your schemes. Even your little dentist's drill didn't work." and Blofeld tells him it wasn't meant to be instant. And by the end of the movie, Bond ends up an amnesiac in the care of a Japanese girl.
  • The Dr Evil / Austin Powers brothers bit was a bit pointless, so no need for that, the bit with C and the MI6 team running around was unnecessary. Nothing really wrong with Craig in it, just needed to be infused with a bit of pace, some engaging action scenes and you are almost there.
  • Posts: 2,107
    Maybe making Blofeld more evil. He was the Diet Coke of evil. Only one calorie, not evil enough. Mmm-hmm!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    SharkBait wrote: »
    Maybe making Blofeld more evil. He was the Diet Coke of evil. Only one calorie, not evil enough. Mmm-hmm!

    And Silva was like a dozen cans of Red Bull all at once mixed with LSD. And didn't succeed as coming across as evil as well.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with the recycled cues. It's been done before. For example, the 2nd time someone heard the 007 theme (which was in TB), they may also have felt that Barry was copying himself (it was first used in FRWL).

    The issue to me really is that Newman used some of the more disappointing and dull sounding cues from SF in SP. Moreover, those repetitive sounding themes didn't work quite as well in the SP scenes as they did in the respective SF scenes. So it just felt tacked on, and in the case of the London finale, just a little too loud, monotonous and distracting.

    I don't think the 007 theme being reused is a good argument or fair one. Every time the 007 theme appeared in a Bond film, it sounded very different between films. FRWL it was simple and to the point, in Thunderball it was loud, brash and in your face. In YOLT it was upbeat and adventurous in DAF it was uplifting and heroic and in Moonraker it was slow and peaceful. Each time it was used it was a brand new arrangement that sounded different from the other and fit the tone of each film. At least Barry took an effort to make each version sound different and unique per film.

    Now we come to Newman's reused cues, they are literally the same exact cues from Skyfall. It's a flat out copy and paste job. "Uh Sam, I don't know what to compose for this scene... It's okay Tom, just get use some stock music from Skyfall!!!" No effort, just laziness.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with the recycled cues. It's been done before. For example, the 2nd time someone heard the 007 theme (which was in TB), they may also have felt that Barry was copying himself (it was first used in FRWL).

    The issue to me really is that Newman used some of the more disappointing and dull sounding cues from SF in SP. Moreover, those repetitive sounding themes didn't work quite as well in the SP scenes as they did in the respective SF scenes. So it just felt tacked on, and in the case of the London finale, just a little too loud, monotonous and distracting.

    I don't think the 007 theme being reused is a good argument or fair one. Every time the 007 theme appeared in a Bond film, it sounded very different between films. FRWL it was simple and to the point, in Thunderball it was loud, brash and in your face. In YOLT it was upbeat and adventurous in DAF it was uplifting and heroic and in Moonraker it was slow and peaceful. Each time it was used it was a brand new arrangement that sounded different from the other and fit the tone of each film. At least Barry took an effort to make each version sound different and unique per film.

    Now we come to Newman's reused cues, they are literally the same exact cues from Skyfall. It's a flat out copy and paste job. "Uh Sam, I don't know what to compose for this scene... It's okay Tom, just get use some stock music from Skyfall!!!" No effort, just laziness.
    The point that I'm making is that Barry has recycled cues before. When listeners heard the 007 theme again in TB for the first time after FRWL, their first thought may have been that it was the same. Upon further listens, they may have made out the differences.

    Are the Newman compositions identical? I haven't played them side by side to know. I thought there were differences between The Moors (From SF) and Westminister Bridge (From SP) for instance, including the incorporation of the Bond theme in the latter?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with the recycled cues. It's been done before. For example, the 2nd time someone heard the 007 theme (which was in TB), they may also have felt that Barry was copying himself (it was first used in FRWL).

    The issue to me really is that Newman used some of the more disappointing and dull sounding cues from SF in SP. Moreover, those repetitive sounding themes didn't work quite as well in the SP scenes as they did in the respective SF scenes. So it just felt tacked on, and in the case of the London finale, just a little too loud, monotonous and distracting.

    I don't think the 007 theme being reused is a good argument or fair one. Every time the 007 theme appeared in a Bond film, it sounded very different between films. FRWL it was simple and to the point, in Thunderball it was loud, brash and in your face. In YOLT it was upbeat and adventurous in DAF it was uplifting and heroic and in Moonraker it was slow and peaceful. Each time it was used it was a brand new arrangement that sounded different from the other and fit the tone of each film. At least Barry took an effort to make each version sound different and unique per film.

    Now we come to Newman's reused cues, they are literally the same exact cues from Skyfall. It's a flat out copy and paste job. "Uh Sam, I don't know what to compose for this scene... It's okay Tom, just get use some stock music from Skyfall!!!" No effort, just laziness.

    The point that I'm making is that Barry has recycled cues before. When listeners heard the 007 theme again in TB for the first time after FRWL, their first thought may have been that it was the same. Upon further listens, they may have made out the differences.

    Are the Newman compositions identical? I haven't played them side by side to know. I thought there were differences between The Moors (From SF) and Westminister Bridge (From SP) for instance, including the incorporation of the Bond theme in the latter?

    Barry hasn't recycled music from other films, perhaps cues he wrote within the same movie. TLD comes to mind but you'd never hear a track from say Goldfinger in Thunderball. And while I can't speak for those people, the versions of the 007 theme heard in FRWL and TB are too different to even really make the connection. 007 in Thunderball, adds quite lot of new melodies to the them itself so it is similar but new at the same time. It's been reinvented.

    And yes the Newman compositions are exactly the same excluding Backfire, but many of the compositions are just reused from SP and it was very jarring to the point it took me out of the movie a lot. Very sloppy and Lazy on his part. The Moors stuff is pretty much the same with a few new parts added to it but the track is so boring and un Bond like it's just unmemorable. That's not what Bond music should be.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with the recycled cues. It's been done before. For example, the 2nd time someone heard the 007 theme (which was in TB), they may also have felt that Barry was copying himself (it was first used in FRWL).

    The issue to me really is that Newman used some of the more disappointing and dull sounding cues from SF in SP. Moreover, those repetitive sounding themes didn't work quite as well in the SP scenes as they did in the respective SF scenes. So it just felt tacked on, and in the case of the London finale, just a little too loud, monotonous and distracting.

    I don't think the 007 theme being reused is a good argument or fair one. Every time the 007 theme appeared in a Bond film, it sounded very different between films. FRWL it was simple and to the point, in Thunderball it was loud, brash and in your face. In YOLT it was upbeat and adventurous in DAF it was uplifting and heroic and in Moonraker it was slow and peaceful. Each time it was used it was a brand new arrangement that sounded different from the other and fit the tone of each film. At least Barry took an effort to make each version sound different and unique per film.

    Now we come to Newman's reused cues, they are literally the same exact cues from Skyfall. It's a flat out copy and paste job. "Uh Sam, I don't know what to compose for this scene... It's okay Tom, just get use some stock music from Skyfall!!!" No effort, just laziness.

    The point that I'm making is that Barry has recycled cues before. When listeners heard the 007 theme again in TB for the first time after FRWL, their first thought may have been that it was the same. Upon further listens, they may have made out the differences.

    Are the Newman compositions identical? I haven't played them side by side to know. I thought there were differences between The Moors (From SF) and Westminister Bridge (From SP) for instance, including the incorporation of the Bond theme in the latter?

    Barry hasn't recycled music from other films, perhaps cues he wrote within the same movie. TLD comes to mind but you'd never hear a track from say Goldfinger in Thunderball. And while I can't speak for those people, the versions of the 007 theme heard in FRWL and TB are too different to even really make the connection. 007 in Thunderball, adds quite lot of new melodies to the them itself so it is similar but new at the same time. It's been reinvented.

    And yes the Newman compositions are exactly the same excluding Backfire, but many of the compositions are just reused from SP and it was very jarring to the point it took me out of the movie a lot. Very sloppy and Lazy on his part. The Moors stuff is pretty much the same with a few new parts added to it but the track is so boring and un Bond like it's just unmemorable. That's not what Bond music should be.
    And this is my point. What he recycled wasn't memorable and wasn't all that impressive. However, they are not the same. I've just listened quickly to both The Moors and Westminster Bridge and there are differences to fit the respective scenes.

    Again, what I'm getting at is if Mendes and Newman were to come back for one more (rest assured they won't), then Newman could even further tweak this track, including its pacing, and then it would be more in keeping with what Barry did with the 007 theme over the years.

    I think what people are really critical of him for is not creating memorable melodies and not using the Bond theme enough. Those are fair criticisms. The score is lackluster, but I found it fit the film well, just like SF fit that film well too.

    SP was a continuation of SF, so it made sense to continue some of the musicial compositions over to validate that continuity.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    And this is my point. What he recycled wasn't memorable and wasn't all that impressive. However, they are not the same. I've just listened quickly to both The Moors and Westminster Bridge and there are differences to fit the respective scenes.

    Again, what I'm getting at is if Mendes and Newman were to come back for one more (rest assured they won't), then Newman could even further tweak this track, including its pacing, and then it would be more in keeping with what Barry did with the 007 theme over the years.

    I think what people are really critical of him for is not creating memorable melodies and not using the Bond theme enough. Those are fair criticisms. The score is lackluster, but I found it fit the film well, just like SF fit that film well too.

    SP was a continuation of SF, so it made sense to continue some of the musicial compositions over to validate that continuity.

    I'm sure there are minor differences but not enough to really notice, plus I hate that specific track anyway, it just grates on me. If Newman reinvented it instead of just remaking it pretty much the same way it would have been better. And you are right, That is why I don't like his work for Bond. His other work I do enjoy like Wall-E which had great memorable themes but there was none of that for SF/SP.

    Even though it was a continuation doesn't mean it should have sounded the same. The beauty of every Bond movie is that it has it's own sound and musical style. That continuation of music style is fine in Star Wars but not Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    And this is my point. What he recycled wasn't memorable and wasn't all that impressive. However, they are not the same. I've just listened quickly to both The Moors and Westminster Bridge and there are differences to fit the respective scenes.

    Again, what I'm getting at is if Mendes and Newman were to come back for one more (rest assured they won't), then Newman could even further tweak this track, including its pacing, and then it would be more in keeping with what Barry did with the 007 theme over the years.

    I think what people are really critical of him for is not creating memorable melodies and not using the Bond theme enough. Those are fair criticisms. The score is lackluster, but I found it fit the film well, just like SF fit that film well too.

    SP was a continuation of SF, so it made sense to continue some of the musicial compositions over to validate that continuity.

    I'm sure there are minor differences but not enough to really notice, plus I hate that specific track anyway, it just grates on me. If Newman reinvented it instead of just remaking it pretty much the same way it would have been better. And you are right, That is why I don't like his work for Bond. His other work I do enjoy like Wall-E which had great memorable themes but there was none of that for SF/SP.

    Even though it was a continuation doesn't mean it should have sounded the same. The beauty of every Bond movie is that it has it's own sound and musical style. That continuation of music style is fine in Star Wars but not Bond.
    Fair enough, but there are some (myself included) who don't think that Bond films should have continued story lines either, but rather should be standalones like in the past. So unfortunately, we appear to be moving in the direction of other franchises in more ways than one.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I believe the Craig era will be the only one with movies that are linked together that "strongly" (for Bond standard at least).

    If Bond 25 sees a new actor as Bond it will not again be a Bond Begins kind of thing. That has been done, and the franchise never repeated itself really.

    The next Bond will just have his film, like DAD, TLD or GE. And the second one will not be linked unless EON would decide to actually shoot two movies back to back but I find that an unlikely scenario.

    In any case the new Bond (be it in film number 25 or 26) will be a refreshing start with a new face and possibly even new cast for the MI6 staff.

    It is even possible that there will be a new generation of movie makers responsible for Bond 25 or 26. Only BB will stay as main producer and possibly decision maker.

    Interesting things will come our way I'm certain.
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