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Comments
Fleshed out the action sequences... the humor could remain in the Rome chase but beef up the tension. What's scarier than talking on the phone at high speed.
Replace the old man with two high hippies...
End the helicopter chase at the end with the helicopter turning around after Blofeld realizes being shot at and have boat vs helicopter headed toward each other...bullets splashing in the Thames. Boat seeks cover under the Westminster bridge both vehicles turn around for a second go ...it's a mi6 boat so Bond finds higher firer power. Again head on attack this time helicopter down just like in the movie.
Yes similar to CR and TLD but not that much and happens quick enough before you maybe realize that.
Oh and have Bond say "morning" not "good evening" at end if Rome chase. Faster to say not too many words and easier to get laugh especially in NA. Also explains why streets less crowded.
Add the Bond quip about Hinx at end if the train fight. The one where he says "I thought he'd never be quiet" or shut up or whatever works best. Audience needs to catch on hey that's right Hinx never said anything.
Leave SF out of SP. Just keep the Quantum films. Yes I know they did because of the success of SF but was too much too tidy in my book.
Buy Blofeld some socks.
EDIT: maybe leave but tweak the love story. MS is Craig's Bond first Bond woman since Vesper. Maybe she reminds him of Vesper.
MS is a very complex character... damaged like Elecktra. Psychiatry and psychology tends to attract people with psychological issues.
She played Bond and he entertained and left with her. Maybe increase his conflict a bit by a comment to Q that he has to try or see or whatever. Didn't Fleming's Bond express a desire to quite and start a family?
I don't know just thoughts
Newman dropped the ball there.
That scene would not have been appropriate but your comments led me to recall that song.
Yes me too but I don't remember where I read it. I think it goes that Arnold was going to use it during the ice lake car chase.
They really need to bring back these melodic, jazzy, laid back influences to the action music....they suit Bond's character. I'd like them to find a composer who can do that.
All the stuff recently (Newman/Arnold) is very frenetic and hyper.
*sigh*, another topic that will dissect "SPECTRE" with a scalpel.....until no 'meat is visible' anymore.
Just to clarify before I rant, I do recognise SP's pros, such as its cinematography (gosh those sceneries!), the visual effects, the camera work, and the acting from all of its actors.
First, the storyline. The teasers had hinted at a big reveal about the main villain of the movie, about SPECTRE and Bonds childhoos. That got my hopes up...until I watched the movie and found out that the main villain is simply Bond's adoptive brother (which can be deduced from the first teaser that they released), and the head of SPECTRE, ESB (which again everyone have been expecting, the jacket is a giveaway =P). However, I expected something more, like Blofeld/Head of SPECTRE turns out to be someone else, like C? Now that would be a great twist while adding to the storyline. When Blofeld says that C gets nothing from cooperating with SPECTRE and that he "is a visionary, like me", I almost jumped out of my seat from excitement thinking that C would be the true head of SPECTRE, but... =/
Also, I find ESB's motivation very perplexing. Jealousy, ok granted. Killed his father...a bit extreme, but ok granted too...would have been better with a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation though, like ESB's father decided to give James something that ESB should have, an incident that crossed the line. Then his hatred towards Bond is simple in its essence, and that pales in comparison with other Bond villains. I do appreciate the adoptive-brother angle though, as the writers clearly wanted to reinvent ESB, and decided to do it by making ESB a more personal matter to Bond than just a maniac-like villain out there which Bond is duty-bound to take down. (that has been the case for most of the Bond villains, at least the DC ones =P)
On a minor note though, I would hope that they flesh out SPECTRE. Not the movie, the organisation. We only saw like 5 minutes of the organisation in discussion, and I believe that they could have made it more reminiscent of the 'older' SPECTRE, with members calling each other by numbers (Number 1,2,3 etc), discussing their aims, and calling Mr Hinx by his name. The filmmakers succeeded in making it different from Quantums meeting (which I enjoyed), but it would have been nicer in making its members more involved, like Quantum. I saw a post here suggesting that its members vote by placing their hand/ring on a pad, solving the Q plot hole and fleshing out SPECTRE too, and I believe that it is a great suggestion.
Still onto the storyline, I expected Hinx to be a henchmen to ESB, like an Oddjob to Goldfinger, with them knowing each other and ESB giving orders etc. Well it didnt happen, and I believe that it would flesh out Hinx a bit, rather than him beating up Bond for no reason (as we only know that he is part of SPECTRE and the fact that he doesnt speak doesnt help =P)
Next, if you want to bring elements from Skyfall Mr Newman, go all the way. I feel that the score of SPECTRE is very disappointing. I am a big fan of Skyfall's score (cant get it out of my head =P), and they are very distinct melodies, and also play at almost each establishing shot of a location (Shanghai, Macaw etc). However, SP's score has, forgive me for being harsh, almost no melody (the only original one i noted is during the car chase scene, as Writing on the Wall is not composed by Newman I think), and relied too much on drums and percussion. I loved Skyfall's score, so I was happy to hear it play out in the opening action sequence (to be more precise, Newman borrowed the track "She's Mine" from SF during the helicopter scene if Im not wrong), however the rest of the movie's score did not borrow much from SF...which could be a good or a bad thing, depending how one looks at it.
Also, I find that clarity is an issue. In chronological order, Q's ring (How did Q discover SPECTRE's structure and members from the ring? I saw on the other thread that this had been clarified by Mendes, but please cant it be explained by Q using like 2 mins in the hotel? Would have helped a lot instead of it appearing a fraction of a second), Blofeld's (failled?) torture scene (How did Bond escape ESB's torture almost unharmed? He should have forgotten all faces and be barely walking at the end. A scene where Bond shifts his neck to cause the drill to miss its target would again help a lot), and the "Nine Eyes" program (the fact that South Amercia/Africa is targeted for terror attacks could have been presented in a clearer manner).
Finally (gosh this is one long post!), the climax. Well, putting it simply, it doesnt have the scale of a Bond climax. CR saw a building crash into the water, QoS saw an entire hotel explode in the desert (now holdd on a secc...gigantic explosion in a desert? I see what u did there! ;) ) and SF saw an entire mansion explode, followed by a helicopter crashing into the exploding building. SP saw a helicopter chased by a speedboat eventually crashing onto a bridge after being shot. Using a handgun. Enough said. =P I would change the climax slightly, by having the speedboat going up a ramp and crashing into the helicopter, which eventually crashes into Parliament. At the same time, Q is only left seconds to disable Nine Eyes, but requires some biometric data from C. C, M, MP and Q struggle, with Q managing to get C's biometric data at the last second before C and M plummet down the wide atrium in a fistfight. MP gets one of Q's gadgets (a rappling hook of some sort) and saves M just when he is about to land, and C well suffers the same fate as the movie. Oh, and C goes full Moriarty too, screaming and being crazy in the climax.
Well that sums it up! Again, I stress that I can be considered to be nitpicking here at some points, but overall I enjoyed SPECTRE, but it just did not reach my expectations, which are pretty high considering SF and the hype before SP.
My main gripe.
All the rest I can willingly overlook, except perhaps the lacklustre use of the Alps for a very mediocre chase in what could have potentially been one of the best action backdrops of the modern Bond era...
2. Shown Bond waiting on a flight or something, being followed. Just to calm down the erratic globe trotting. Every seen is a different country and all you get is bit of text in a horrible font.
3. No "I Love You", even "I think I am falling in love with you" would have worked better.
4. Artic Monkeys on theme.
5. Bond not to return to London at the end. Finale in Morocco/Tangier would have been better.
6. The fight scene on the train to be longer.
7. The comedy to be dropped from the car chase.
8. The DB10 to have featured more.
9. Bond should have drowned White in the lake, the same fate that met Vesper.
10. Drop the foster brother vendetta element to the story. Blofeld being annoyed with Bond for hampering operations in CR, QOS should have been enough for him to seek vengeance, the personal aspect was not required.
I understand some people don't like the personal angle, but nothing suggests he seeks vengeance because of it. Do you really think he'd have done the same if Bond was working in his local branch of Wagamama?
Yea I agree. I didn't see too much personal vendetta on the part of Bond. Blofeld yes, but Bond tended to dismiss that angle. I thought that was refreshing on Bond's part btw.
Sorry I don't get your point. What I am saying is between Bond stopping the plans in CR and then in QOS he cost Blofeld's organisation Billions of $$$, but not just this, operations appeared to have stalled due to the gap in funding. That would be enough for me to toy with Mr Bond the next time our paths crossed if I was a power hungry looney like Blofeld.
Ah sorry, I thought thought you were implying Blofeld's actions were motivated by revenge rather (or more) than Bond's actions.
Yeah, My comments really read both ways don't they. Sorry for the confusion. :-bd
No fret @GG. We are all still Bond fans. I enjoyed SP ...really I did.
Your opinion is always appreciated... and so is @bondjames ...and I see both sides.
Btw, where is @bondjasonbond006 ? Probably cycling up the Alps. Come back!!!!!
First of all get rid of the Bond linked to Blofeld childhood element, no things recovered by forensic at Skyfall, just jettison the lot.
This is clearly what Logan & Mendes started getting excited about while SF was shooting, the both of them are really to blame here that and the daft as a brush idea of having Silva's actions facilitate placing a SPECTRE agent Mallory as the new M, one was axed they both should have been.
PTS, fine no problem easily one of the best parts of the film and sets up things nicely the Pale Horse reference and the ring.
I've no problem with everything being linked, Skyfall actually benefits from this as Silva's actions seem that more probable if he has a well financed organisation assisting him with this actions. ESB would recruit him knowing his personal grudge with M but she would be becoming a problem to him anyway as her poking into Quantum's affairs isn't something he'd rather wasn't happening.
It's believable that despite Bond discovering Quantum in QOS that M's superiors are likely to be suspicious of her claim there is an organisation everywhere like White implies in his interrogation, hence why she started looking into Quantum secretly with her connections.
The credits and song, sorry but that song has to go to me it's the worst theme of the series, DK's weird Dan Craig Octopus porn gone. I don't mind using an octopus but not with a naked DC thanks. The shattered glass with M, Silva etc is fine and ESB at the table fine, just take out what I've mentioned and fine.
Bond being like he is with M makes sense, yes he's his Boss but Bond still isn't sure he trusts him and vice versa, they made some ground at the end of SF but the trust needs to be earned both sides so fine with that. Also at this point M is nervous knowing a shake up is coming and the potential threat to his newly acquired department and this will show in his stern ticking off of 007 and grounding him for his actions in Mexico.
The whole Max Denbigh thing needs a rethink, Scott on reflection was not a good idea, to overtly a villain. Cast an actor who is not so obvious and sneery. You could have Mallory be summoned to a meeting with the Secretary of Defense and be introduced to Denbigh as the man bought in to usher in this possible transition if all the nations included agree and ask for Mallory's cooperation and assistance in this.
Denbigh will convince M he interested in working together using the 00's as part of Nine Eyes project and not shut it down although the audience would be witness to his real intention at some point, possibly even have MD being seen with Guy Haines. A nice little Easter Egg for the fans that spot as a subtle hint and where MD is actually loyal to.
The terrorist attacks around the globe would be going on making Denbigh's proposal that more probable, these would become the motivation for the program getting the green light and forcing the one objecting nation to relent and then on the 2nd round of votes get the unanimous result.
Bond's secret that Moneypenny mentions is not his childhood past but the fact he's been concealing he's covertly being chasing down Sciarra on the back of Dench's M's message which he reveals to her at his flat when she says he doesn't trust anyone, bringing her into his confidence and establishing an ally. It speaks sense the late M would be investigating leads in light of Quantum and Mitchell being her body guard and right under her nose. Knowing her career was heading to an end in light of SF events, having the message mailed to Bond in the event of her death.
The moments with Q & Tanner fine, the humour is spot on, Bond would still needs to disappear as he needs to investigate this lead, I know the Bond rogue seems a mainstay of the era but it's understandable he would do this. Keep the car, the watch and the blood tracker of course but dump the DB5. It's enough in SF no need to resurrect it here. Bond still steals the DB10 as per the film and heads to Rome
The meeting with Lucia Sciarra is fine, Craig is on cracking form here so I wouldn't change it and the chemistry although brief is evident between him and Belluci, possibly flesh out to give her more onscreen time.
Franz Oberhauser wouldn't exist, you could either give Waltz another name or just refer to him as a mystery figure. Lets face it as soon as he was cast we knew where this was going, as soon as the title was revealed it was plain as day CW was ESB so why try to make it a big deal.
The moment Bond gate crashes the SPECTRE meeting is very sinister, don't really mind the Mickey Mouse moment. Hinx's intro fine, Blofeld introduction fine. He can start mentioning the Mexico incident and mention about having a guest tonight in our midst and then say Bond's name but possibly say Mr Bond instead of James (James is too personal) . The Pale Horse name drop again is fine, Bond will remember it from the PTS.
He can mention finally we meet after all this time, Bond won't know the relevance of this comment till the he establishes who the Pale Horse is.
While I don't mind the car chase and the jokey tone, possibly make it a little more visceral and threatening, SPECTRE lacked a dangerous feel to it for the most part, Bond didn't feel that shaken by anything, yes have the humour but have Bond quite shaken by the revelation of the Pale Horse's identity when he's speaking to MP she can also mention M being under pressure because of the 9E situation but Bond will be more concerned with the revelaltion of who PH is. He heads to Austria to find Mr White.
If Mendes did want to explore a brotherly relationship he could have done this with ESB & Mr White. White was clearly high up in the organisation and at one time most likely close to him. White could have been one of the original members that help build SPECTRE but grown disillusioned with the direction they were going in and felt that this wasn't what was intended, his relationship becoming fractured.
White motivation for turning his back on SP seems a bit trite when he mentions women and children he needs to have something stronger. White could mention at one time they were close and on the same page but something changed that which forced White to betray the organisation hence why he is in hiding.
Although Bond & White's meeting seemed a little cosy, notch up menacing air here and have real killer exchange between the two. Bond tried to track this guy down after capturing him once and then evaded him. JB wouldn't take this lightly although the wheels will be turning and coming to the realisation the Le Chiffre & Greene are linked to this mystery organisation but White can drop some hints as well, Bond will then realise the relevance of ESB's comment at the meeting prior about finally meeting. White would also just refer to him and no name. In fact the reveal of the name can come near the end but it's no big secret and everyone's expecting it so why even bother trying to cover it up. Like JJ and Lindelof tried with Into Darkness, it's pointless. I'm sure Mendes was the only one who thought it would come as some shattering revelation.
White can still be dying and Bond will offer him a way out but will make Bond promise to save his Daughter revealing that she will be able to help him track down ESB and name drops the hotel, knowing only she can make sense of it. I'm not sure if White in their conversation can make a casual comment about Spectres, a little last minute taunt to Bond for old time's sake then he suicides himself.
We would get a report of another Terrorist attack and although the first round doesn't succeed before this after the latest attack everyone vote to secure it. M is not initially against this as he is led to believe that the 00 program is not at threat and believes that a combined system in conjunction with his department might be a good idea. Although the seeds of Debigh's real intentions will start to show through but not to M just the audience. Although Q will start to smell a rat. Mallory will discover the betrayal and real intentions of Denbigh after the vote has gone through then Max could reveal that he did all he could but from Intel he's found out that M's staff are going behind his back assisting Bond he has no other option but to end the 00 program.
Bond's meeting with Swann is fine but maybe he can be seen arriving in the plane he mysteriously acquires when Swann is kidnapped by Hinx and cronies. Make her resistance to his help as in the film. He can still wait for her but no Q turning up to try and take him back. Bond will see MS being abducted and then pursue in the plane.
That pursuit seems quite flat and not particularly tense, turn this into a real great sequence like the PTS, Bond will manage to catch up and rescue Swann with Hinx being left for dead as in the film.
MS is still resistant but it will be Bond who will work out the connections from little gaps filled in by Swann and then she'll reveal the name of the organisation. That moment with Q discovering everything through the ring is utter nonsense. Have Bond actually work this out for himself. Moneypenny will have still discovered who the PH is in the car chase but Bond will get there after that through is powers of deduction .
Back in London M would be deflated but Q not really trusting the whole 9E scheme starts to look into things and Denbigh, he would then discover Denbigh's connections to Haines and would no from old Intel that GH is linked to Quantum then Moneypenny could mention Bond pursuing the Pale Horse who is actually Mr White connecting the dots although all after 9E has succeeded. M, Q, MP & Tanner will then have to work covertly to take it down. This will also help to tie all the entries together more cohesively than in the film.
Bond & MS off to Morocco as MS will take Bond to the L'American and that moment will play out as in the film, the secret room moment, the Vesper VHS maybe this should be something else CR was not set in the early 90's. Discover the info to find the hideaway that Mr White has located.
This leads to the train sequence but the fight will be longer and Bond and MS will look realistically shook up by the whole ordeal, Hinx can still be dispatched the same with a hint he might not be dead and then lead into the love scene.
Bond and Swann would get off as per the film and then be met and taken to the desert base. Bond would then meet ESB, he could then introduce himself, possibly have them at dinner ESB being polite but Bond having to be usual sarcastic and dry self, a real humdinger of a scene like Bond dining with Dr No. Leading to ESB taking them on a tour entering the control room with all the monitors.
He could taunt MS with knowing he's instrumental in her Father's death. He would then start to tell Bond he's behind everything but he would be one step ahead knowing this, a little taunt about Vesper there but then ESB would realise this wasn't phasing Bond and then reveal that he financed Silva and was involved in the death of his beloved M and this would get to Bond.
Bond will have noticed all the screens ESB would then show the link to MI6 office and have as in the film Mallory announcing the end of the 00 program. ESB can then reveal to Bond that he's been behind the whole 9E project and Denbigh. Then show Swann her Father's death footage. Bond will ask for this not to happen but Swann will witness it although also realising the humanity that Bond shows to him. Bond will lose his temper than lead to being knocked out.
We could then cut back to London and have team MI6 foiling Denbigh, Q would hack into Nine Eyes and take it down and M would still confront him but instead of killing him would take him in. M would then take control, this could be happening simultaneously with the next scene below.
Bond wakes up in torture chair, he could mention it being a pity about MS actually finding someone who could understand her life being a daughter of an assassin. She will become more drawn to Bond in the heat of the situation. ESB can still torture Bond and the watch bit can then play out as in the film but the explosion while scaring Blofeld won't put him out of action.
The explosion will just be the start of a chain reaction that will lead to it's destruction. Blofeld will head off and Bond will pursue with MS following. Bond will take out guards in his pursuit but the returning fire will contribute to more destruction. Bond will catch up with Blofeld, they will have some combat, this will lead to Bond dispatching him but this will be ambiguous enough for us to think he could have survived. Anyway when the base goes up it will be assumed he's killed then.
The Base already heading for destruction and it will just Bond and Swann need to get out of there alive reach the helicopter and escape.
Back in London Bond returns with Swann to be told Denbigh has been foiled and 9E is dead and buried and the 00 section has been reprieved. Bond then turns to M and says maybe he could do something else instead, it won't be outright quit but then Bond will leave M to meet Madeline and they'll walk off the end.
Like I said it's just broad strokes but this will seem more like a mission than something personal which hampered SP for me in a big way. Writers with far more talent can probably do more with this but just a few ideas.
Play up the Mr White Blofeld connection more and just make ESB nothing to do with Bond's past apart from being behind Quantum and Silva. Also giving Team MI6 the job of taking down 9E and Bond not having anything to do with it.
This leaves things open, Bond might have quit we don't know but ESB clearly has escaped this could lead to Bond 25 when possibly Blofeld goes after Bond for revenge forcing him back into the 00 section.
Mendes needs to be fired real quick.
MGW has lost it. He needs to retire now.
Babs needs to put some competent people in charge of this franchise, and get out of the way.
She should have no say at all in the creative direction of future films.
Her role should be confined to big picture oversight only of budgets and broader production matters.
Going forward screenwriters need to simply purge the "brother" angle from any future Blofeld-Bond exchanges-like it never happened.
Maybe get rid of Waltz too, to help achieve a fresh Bond-Ernst relationship.
@shardlake those are all well thought out ideas to fix the film that you have thrown on the table, which would have been helpful during the planning stage.
Which is why I take Babs to task. She surrendered the story plotting to the likes of Logan and Mendes.
She needs to put a proper team in place that can intelligently and creatively plot the direction of the franchise.
They should all be committed to Team Bond
There is great opportunity here to move forward with a new era of Bond vs Spectre with Blofelds role varying from film to film.
He can be lead villain.played by different actors again, or concede spotlight to operatives like DN, Klebb, Largo, White Le Chiffre, Greene, Silva as we have already seen.
We need a team that is committed to both short term and longer term vision, that can fully exploit Craig's talents for a few more films and then find a great much younger Bond to usher in the next block of films
I quite enjoyed SPECTRE. A lot, actually, and I wouldn't change a whole lot. Just a few small things. I like Mendes' 2 Bond films; they are both in the top end of the films for me. So I'm quite happy with EON, Babs, Mendes, everybody involved overall. It could have veered so much off track and it didn't. I didn't mind the Oberhauser/Blofeld connection to Bond's family. No big deal; it made it more personal and that was fine. They knew each other as kids. This really does not bug me.
SPECTRE is a good Bond adventure, an enjoyable Bond film with a decent story and no angst. Refreshing. And it set up for the next film just fine. I'd tweak just a few minor things that's all.
That's a bit much. Spectre left too many loose ends to just dump Waltz and whoever else. Bond 25 needs to finish the Bond vs Blofeld story, whether Swann lives or dies, doesn't matter. Craig needs to come back, have one more good hurrah, destroy Blofeld once and for all, come back to MI-6 sit down in his office, have a martini and get back to fighting the good fight with no loose ends and then bring on the next actor or Craig adventure if he wishes. No more cliffhanger endings or loose end stories. I don't want to see another DAF scenario where OHMSS gets ignored because it wasn't well liked. Spectre was great. finish the journey because at this point it feels incomplete.
This thread is about making the film better.
The movie is passable but it could have been so much better IMO
@shardlake and others have tossed a ton of ideas on the table that I think all lend towards improvement.
If Babs would stop rolling the dice with the likes of Logan and Mendes who obsess over Bonds need for personal journey and personal stake in relationship with villain, then maybe the story wouldn't have had to be so drastically overhauled, and we might have got a better SP origins story.
@Murdoch Waltz doesn't have to go.Just an idea that would help with distancing from the "brother" angle.
Craig IMO basically salvages the film as well as some other strong elements but the whole thing could have been so much better I think, if they hadn't got so bogged down in coming up with a coherent story and script.
And yes do put me.down for Blofeld as ongoing nemesis in either foreground or more background.
Eon got this angle right the first time around and would have kept going but for pain-in-the-ass McClory.
Logan's out of the picture so B25 hopefully will be tighter and better written without delay. :)