Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 15,117
    Except the point we're all missing here is that pretty much exclusively all the terrorists in all these kinds of attacks are brought up in the countries they attack.

    It's not Iraqis or Syrians doing this.

    Why do people living in western inner cities give the slightest shit about the fluctuating oil price and the Middle East?

    I'm sorry but only having a 36 inch flat screen and sky sports basic package does not count as poverty. And there are plenty of people of all backgrounds living in the same conditions in these inner cities but it's only the Muslims who feel the need to act like this?

    And beside a number of the terrorist actions targeted either people that had NOTHING to do with their government's actions or were motivated by religious reasons. CH were not in the oil business and were murdered for strictly religious reasons, because in the eye of their murderers they had committed blasphemy.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    But religion causes a much greater emotional connection between a "brotherhood" that goes way beyond state boundaries. I think its a fair point that you cant start a war that leads to 500,000 deaths (most Muslim) without the global Muslim community reacting. National boundaries and juristiction mean much more to Western liberal culture. The "pull" of being a Muslim overrides patriotism to a national flag or the ability to think rationally that, even if you are not a patriot, your owe something to the country that gives you so much). Being brought up in Leeds or Lambeth is a side issue for these guys compared to being a Muslim) I don't agree with it but its plain to see. Around 600 Muslim men from the UK have gone to Syria as jihadists compared to 450 Muslims who have joined the British Army. They feel a closer emotional pull to their brotherhood in Syria than the guys within the local town who join the Paras, Infantry etc. So again, we see the effect of religion as it creates (for good or bad) an international force of young men, bonded by something far far stronger than patriotism (how many Western soldiers would be happy to wear a suicide belt?) or anything else that Western culture can offer.
    If your sense of belonging resides withing your religion rather than your country, a clash is inevitable as "your Country needs you" is the default position within Western culture. This very strong emotional link is something that many non-Mulims fail to appreciate (including Blair).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Except the point we're all missing here is that pretty much exclusively all the terrorists in all these kinds of attacks are brought up in the countries they attack.

    It's not Iraqis or Syrians doing this.

    Why do people living in western inner cities give the slightest shit about the fluctuating oil price and the Middle East?

    I'm sorry but only having a 36 inch flat screen and sky sports basic package does not count as poverty. And there are plenty of people of all backgrounds living in the same conditions in these inner cities but it's only the Muslims who feel the need to act like this?
    That's a fair question. Let me pose a counterargument.

    You seem like an intelligent and fair minded person. You probably have a reasonable life, as do all of us (anyone who can spend time on these forums can't be doing all that poorly).

    There were 3 terrorist attacks last week. One in Beirut, one with the Russian plane and one in Paris. We have a thread legitimately dedicated to Paris here. 12 pages long. We had a much longer one dedicated to CH. Where is the thread or any mention or discussion of the Russian or Lebanese lives lost? Do they not matter?

    If we can make distinctions (subconsciously) as to which lives lost we 'relate to' and feel more aggrieved about, as educated people in a western society, why can't we understand the enemy doing the same, whether they be in Syria, or on our shores.

    People relate to others in many ways, and not just on religious grounds, but also on cultural ones. I'm not religious at all, but I care for the Parisian lives lost. I also care about the Russian lives lost just as equally......and the Syrian ones. All innocent lives matter.

    So yes, those attackers were reportedly from our shores (the scariest kind). They are sympathizers. They could be economically underprivileged or they could be well to do.....who knows? Bottom line, if we can sympathize somewhat selectively, why can't they?

    Furthermore, if, as you rightly note, the attackers were reportedly from our shores, why isn't France bombing Belgium? Why not Greece? Why did the US bomb Iraq for 911? Why not Saudi (where several of the attackers came from)? Why don't we discuss that here?

    If we, as intelligent and educated people, appear to see the enemy simplistically as a monolithic parasite, why are we surprised when they see us similarly?
  • patb wrote: »

    A lot of good points in that, I will never forgive bush & blair for getting us into IRAQ with absolutely no F**king idea about how to fill the void, you could perhaps on some fronts excuse the invation of AFGANISTAN, it was the home of al qeada, but again we had no coherent plan for the aftermath & whats happening now, the taliban are taking ground back month on month, it's all course & effect you can't unsrcamble eggs. IMHO we should leave these countries to solve their own problems, put up the fences & pull up the drawbridge, give any young Muslim a one way ticket to the war zone if they want to fight, withdraw their citizanship & let them get on with it.

    My biggest problem is the rightous rhetoric that comes from politicians standing behind multiple layers of security, people in class houses shouldn't throw stones.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    The fact that some of us Americans truly feel like we should invade these countries as if we're going to come in and throw up more Wal-Marts and Starbucks and shopping malls everywhere and change thousands of years of tradition and totally end any sort of violence or anti-American views is hilarious to me.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Looking at the present maps, ISIS now have control in 1/3 of Iraq. It's hard to see that happening under the old regime. The "power vacuum" is a cliche but seems valid here. If nobody is in charge, then the thugs will take over. And now the thugs have moved "next door" into Syria. Explanation should never be confused for excusing: but we have not really helped ourselves.
  • Posts: 11,425
    We've been led by idiots.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I was in the demonstration against the Iraq invasion in London and remember how peaceful it was. We are such a passive and well behaved lot , sometimes too much, the UK has a rich history of rioting but, ironically, the demographic on the march was so wide that rioting was never on the cards (when was the last time that people walking quietly down a road changed anything?). However, I think Bush would have gone in anyway and we would still have had to deal with the fallout in the same way that France is now.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    I was in the demonstration against the Iraq invasion in London and remember how peaceful it was. We are such a passive and well behaved lot , sometimes too much, the UK has a rich history of rioting but, ironically, the demographic on the march was so wide that rioting was never on the cards (when was the last time that people walking quietly down a road changed anything?). However, I think Bush would have gone in anyway and we would still have had to deal with the fallout in the same way that France is now.

    I think a strong speach against invading Iraq from a British Primer Minister might have had an impact on the debate in the US. Clearly we're just talking hypotheticals, but if Blair had actually been a wise and good friend of the US he might have tried to talk Bush out of it.

    Bush is not a bad man, I don't think, but Cheney and Rumsfeld are.

    Imagine Blair convincing the Clintons that invading Iraq was a bad idea, and perhaps even convincing Colin Powell to act on his doubts. That would have been a powerful alliance against the invasion.

    Probably on balance the U.S. would have still gone in, but at least Britain would have done her duty as a true friend and ally. Blair represented no one - he destroyed his own reputation and damaged Britains standing in the world.
  • Maybe we'll get some justice for all the dead if blair does get a summons from the Haig when the Chilcot report is published next year.....pigs might fly as well.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Maybe we'll get some justice for all the dead if blair does get a summons from the Haig when the Chilcot report is published next year.....pigs might fly as well.

    It's sickening how even now Blair cannot admit that he was wrong. His soul is corrupted by power, ego and money. A clever but deluded fool.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The fact that some of us Americans truly feel like we should invade these countries as if we're going to come in and throw up more Wal-Marts and Starbucks and shopping malls everywhere and change thousands of years of tradition and totally end any sort of violence or anti-American views is hilarious to me.
    Yep.
  • I don't believe there'd by no more conflict or war, that's human nature, I just don't want anyone else to die because of some bl**dy ancient & obsolete doctrine. I now I'm wishing for a miracle.

    And now you know why people pray. Lots and lots and lots of them, all through the history of the human race. That's not going to stop anytime soon. Religion isn't going away. Period. Full stop. What needs to be done is to educate people on the counterproductive results that are inherent in the use of force, rather than persuasion, to achieve one's aims.

    As an American, I just hope Europeans as a whole are smarter about their response to this tragedy, than we Americans were about 9/11. I was on the streets of San Francisco, protesting the night the invasion of Iraq was due to begin. As noted several times on this board, the actions of our foolish, in-over-his-head president destabilized an already sketchy situation. I only hope you lot can behave more rationally than we did.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    I don't believe there'd by no more conflict or war, that's human nature, I just don't want anyone else to die because of some bl**dy ancient & obsolete doctrine. I now I'm wishing for a miracle.

    And now you know why people pray. Lots and lots and lots of them, all through the history of the human race. That's not going to stop anytime soon. Religion isn't going away. Period. Full stop. What needs to be done is to educate people on the counterproductive results that are inherent in the use of force, rather than persuasion, to achieve one's aims.

    As an American, I just hope Europeans as a whole are smarter about their response to this tragedy, than we Americans were about 9/11. I was on the streets of San Francisco, protesting the night the invasion of Iraq was due to begin. As noted several times on this board, the actions of our foolish, in-over-his-head president destabilized an already sketchy situation. I only hope you lot can behave more rationally than we did.
    ^^^^THIS^^^
  • bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    With regard to giving hope, that's not what ISIS is about, you could give them the keys to everything & they'd still kill you without hesitation because they can't & will not accept co-exsistance without total obedience.
    Never said ISIS is about giving hope- they are about exploiting hopelessness & anger.
    I agree. They are deadly charlatans

    They are the personification of pure evil if you ask me. Some politicians in Netherlands already compared IS with the Nazi's. And the comparison is in certain ways logical. Both the Nazi's and IS were trying to exterminate certain 'impure' human beings...or what they thought was impure according to their beliefs.

    The biggest difference is, that IS eyes its obliteration on the entire population of Earth that doesn't fulfill their beliefs. Whereas the Nazi's eyed its obliteration on a minority of people and used it as a scapegoat.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Maybe we'll get some justice for all the dead if blair does get a summons from the Haig when the Chilcot report is published next year.....pigs might fly as well.

    It's sickening how even now Blair cannot admit that he was wrong. His soul is corrupted by power, ego and money. A clever but deluded fool.

    Well Tony caught Catholicism and of course Dubya was guided by The Lord to bomb Iraq so instead of criticising them how about we all just respect their beliefs?
  • As an American, I just hope Europeans as a whole are smarter about their response to this tragedy, than we Americans were about 9/11. I was on the streets of San Francisco, protesting the night the invasion of Iraq was due to begin. As noted several times on this board, the actions of our foolish, in-over-his-head president destabilized an already sketchy situation. I only hope you lot can behave more rationally than we did.

    Camerons statement today would appear to illustrate our politicians are exactly the same.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34846457
  • Posts: 342
    As an American, I just hope Europeans as a whole are smarter about their response to this tragedy, than we Americans were about 9/11. I was on the streets of San Francisco, protesting the night the invasion of Iraq was due to begin. As noted several times on this board, the actions of our foolish, in-over-his-head president destabilized an already sketchy situation. I only hope you lot can behave more rationally than we did.

    Camerons statement today would appear to illustrate our politicians are exactly the same.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34846457

    Which is why The Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Jeremy Corbyn because he is not the same as them
  • Posts: 15,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Maybe we'll get some justice for all the dead if blair does get a summons from the Haig when the Chilcot report is published next year.....pigs might fly as well.

    It's sickening how even now Blair cannot admit that he was wrong. His soul is corrupted by power, ego and money. A clever but deluded fool.

    Well Tony caught Catholicism and of course Dubya was guided by The Lord to bomb Iraq so instead of criticising them how about we all just respect their beliefs?

    Yes that's the thing. God spoke to them. The war could literally have been avoided had they taken lithium.
  • Our better still arsenic.....!
  • Posts: 342
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The fact that some of us Americans truly feel like we should invade these countries .... and totally end any sort of violence or anti-American views is hilarious to me.

    Totally agree - cannot get my head round anyone thinking this! As if the people of the US would be happy if they were invaded by Saudi Arabia
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 342
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Maybe we'll get some justice for all the dead if blair does get a summons from the Haig when the Chilcot report is published next year.....pigs might fly as well.

    It's sickening how even now Blair cannot admit that he was wrong. His soul is corrupted by power, ego and money. A clever but deluded fool.

    Well Tony caught Catholicism and of course Dubya was guided by The Lord to bomb Iraq so instead of criticising them how about we all just respect their beliefs?

    Yes that's the thing. God spoke to them. The war could literally have been avoided had they taken lithium.

    And, off course, Saudi petro-dollars didn't influence Blair or Bush at all..
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia_lobby_in_the_United_States

    Once ISIS took control of oilfields and began to threaten Saudi Arabia, they became the latest people to be dubbed 'the new Nazis / worse than Hitler'
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Troy wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The fact that some of us Americans truly feel like we should invade these countries .... and totally end any sort of violence or anti-American views is hilarious to me.

    Totally agree - cannot get my head round anyone thinking this! As if the people of the US would be happy if they were invaded by Saudi Arabia

    How about over a billion people in Africa and Asia being invaded, subdued, enslaved and/or killed by Arabia and their power tools?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,661
    If the UK gov vote for air strikes in Syria, expect London to get bombs and shootings. Same is true for the US, Washington has been mentioned as an ISIS target.

    I agree with some of the previous comments, the UK, US, Russia, France should not be involved in the civil war in Syria. Obviously Iraq is different due to US led coalition's war in 2003 but we should have no direct involvement in Syria. It is a civil war, an internal conflict. I wonder if there are reasons for involvement in the middle east - control of oil reserves, the sale of oil, selling of arms to whatever terrorist group we favour at the time, etc. I think it's naive to think this is just about good vs evil. Even the so called 'good' sides have hidden agendas. I think most of it comes down to Western and Russian sale of arms to these countries.

  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Just 30 minutes ago the international Friendly football match Germany vs Netherlands got cancelled due to a rather serious thread of a planned terror attack. The stadium was evacuated. So, is this the kind of reality we have to live with? Some sick terrorist arseholes being a constant thread for the civilized western world?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    So, is this the kind of reality we have to live with? Some sick terrorist arseholes being a constant thread for the civilized western world?
    It works for them!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Expecting the England fans to do themselves proud by attempting to sing a rousing rendition of the Marseillaise tonight.

    And surely a rendition of 'No surrender to the ISIS scum' has to be a crowd favourite on the night?
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Yes, that's the bad thing. On the other hands, after the events at Paris, it would have been wrong to put a lot of innocent people on the stake of another ferocious attack. Mind you, the three suicied bombers had tickets for the match and obvisiouslyx planned to blow themselves up in the stadium. 80 000 people would have lead to thousnads of victims.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Just 30 minutes ago the international Friendly football match Germany vs Netherlands got cancelled due to a rather serious thread of a planned terror attack. The stadium was evacuated. So, is this the kind of reality we have to live with? Some sick terrorist arseholes being a constant thread for the civilized western world?

    Belgium v Spain been pulled as well.

    Come on our boys - let's have a bit of Dunkirk spirit. This is now the most important match we have played for a very long time. In some senses ever.

    F**k these c**ts and come on Engerland!!
  • How about over a billion people in Africa and Asia being invaded, subdued, enslaved and/or killed by Arabia and their power tools?

    Useless remarks I'm afraid, relativists IMO have a strong agenda, the "real" relativists are actually very rare ;)
This discussion has been closed.