Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 4,615
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.
    Not sometimes.....always. Democracy is never fast. It is never decisive. It is messy and slow. An autocracy is most suited to a war like footing. This is why Bush mobilized the people post-911 and shuttered the press (Condi did anyway). China's growth is a perfect example of the power of an autocracy, compared to the messy democratic Indian experience.
  • Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    Vlad the impaler incarnate anyone? >:)
  • Posts: 4,615
    As a contrast, I wonder what the good people of Russia make of Corbyn?

    “I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general. I think that is quite dangerous and I think can often can be counterproductive."

    Not exactly Dirty Harry is he?
  • Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...
  • patb wrote: »

    Already had loads of medals - what a hero.Do dogs go to heaven? What does the bible say on that?

    Never mind the Bible, there were 2 count 'em 2 animated movies awhile back that settled this issue. "All Dogs Go to Heaven." Case closed.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    All this suffering because that idiot George Bush had a hard on for a third rate Iraqi dictator. Surrounded by hawks and sheep who were too busy kissing his lone star ass (Tony Blair included).
    Only Colin Powell was willing to lend a dissenting voice but he was quickly shouted down (and being a career soldier and like Admiral Yamamoto) he decided to follow orders of his superiors. Remember those speeches he made at the UN one could tell from his body language that he was not 100% on board and he left after Bush's second term began.
    Today George Bush lives in his 4 million dollar mansion in North Dallas surrounded by a Secret Service detail ( and being the sociopath he is) never losing any sleep over the pain and suffering he has caused.

    I would put it differently. For me, the guys who came up with invading Iraq, were Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, and the political fool who followed their stage directions having their way, was GWB. And reading Cheney still is confident, that everything he, Rumsfeld and Karl Rove did, was justified. I do not feel pity for Saddam Hussein and his sons, they were murdereous manicas and bastards, but the invasion and all they did afterwards actually lead to the formation of this IS terrorists.

  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Totally true.

    I think Cheney is genuinely evil. The human manifestation of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned of.

    I'm never sure what to think of Dubya. I don't think he's tbe idiot he was caricatured as, but at the same time, how do you actually explain him believing that Iraq was a legitimate target?
  • Posts: 2,341
    Iraq was not a legitimate target, he just wanted to get at Saddam Hussein. He had built up a dislike for him and needed an excuse to take him down. 911 was his excuse (flimsy as it was) and most people are goddamn gullible.
    During the Nuremberg trials Herman Goering was quoted as saying: "Its easy to bend the will of the people. Just say the country is in danger, pacifists are knocked as being un patriotic. This works all the time" (or words to that effect)

    Being a student of history, I was just appalled hearing the news broadcasts, the speeches and all leading up to the Iraq Invasion.

    @Getafix I agree with your comments on Dick Cheney. The man is the evil prime minister, the real power behind the throne.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    One of the big guys in the terrorist act against France appears to have been killed in a pretty impressive Parisian police raid which occurred today.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    One of the big guys in the terrorist act against France appears to have been killed in a pretty impressive Parisian police raid which occurred today.

    And now he is fornicating in the monster god heaven. Congratulations.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.

    Seconded.

    I think you'll find all of the US and UK casualties do not even add up to the amount the Russians lost in Stalingrad alone.

    Whilst I have the utmost respect for all our people who fell against the Nazis the perception we have in the west that it was our contribution that won it is both laughable and insulting to Russia.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    They have yet to identify if the ringleader was killed or not (it's confirmed that he wasn't among those captured) during that Parisian raid today.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.

    Seconded.

    I think you'll find all of the US and UK casualties do not even add up to the amount the Russians lost in Stalingrad alone.

    Whilst I have the utmost respect for all our people who fell against the Nazis the perception we have in the west that it was our contribution that won it is both laughable and insulting to Russia.

    Indeed, we owe Mother Russia a great deal here in the West, the Cold War aside.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.

    Not playing it down, just the winter beat 2 nations, Germany & France (Napoleon, 1812 and all that), should study military history, it was part of strategy lectures at Sandhurst.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2015 Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.

    Not playing it down, just the winter beat 2 nations, Germany & France (Napoleon, 1812 and all that), should study military history, it was part of strategy lectures at Sandhurst.

    I find it somewhat disingenuous to blame it all on supply lines rather than the limitless supply of Russian corpses.

    I think there wouldn't have been a problem if the Germans could have just rolled into Stalingrad but the fact that the town refused to fall means they end up getting bogged down for months and months.

    It was the defiant Russian resistance they met that makes winter become a factor. But for that they'd have had their feet up and the cigars out by the time the snow started.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    They're certainly a tough lot. No question. I wouldn't want to mess with them.
  • Posts: 2,341
    Killing these guys gives them what they want : to fornicate in Paradise. I say take them alive put them on trial, lock them up and throw away the key. See how they like being in prison the rest of their lives with only "madame palm" to keep them warm on cold nights.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is ironic that at a time when Western liberal values are under threat, it is Russia who really "pull their finger out" and get things done. Sometimes democracy is just to messy to act fast.

    Well it was the same story in WW2. The Ruskies were the ones that beat Hitler.

    Two things last time I looked Russia is classed as a democracy plus I think you'll find it was the Russian Winter that beat Hitler on the western front, the other allies did have something to do with it as well, government was stronger during WW2, no bullsh*t PC appeasement then, we had Churchill...

    Playing down Russia's role in winning WW2 is not cool.

    Not playing it down, just the winter beat 2 nations, Germany & France (Napoleon, 1812 and all that), should study military history, it was part of strategy lectures at Sandhurst.

    I find it somewhat disingenuous to blame it all on supply lines rather than the limitless supply of Russian corpses.

    I think there wouldn't have been a problem if the Germans could have just rolled into Stalingrad but the fact that the town refused to fall means they end up getting bogged down for months and months.

    It was the defiant Russian resistance they met that makes winter become a factor. But for that they'd have had their feet up and the cigars out by the time the snow started.

    Don't look at this through rosey glasses, the Russian people were dead anyway, if they didn't fight they were shot for running away, the winter made the difference because no German conscript had ever experienced anything like it. Again, tactically Hitler was a fool, as he was with the Battle of Britain, had he gone round Starlingrad (Volgograd today) & annexed it from the rest of the soviet army & cut of supplies, it would have fallen eventually, if they'd ignored what was not a stratigic objective in the bigger picture, Hitler's army would probably have conquered Russia. As much as if he'd just headed across the channel in 1940 as concensus believes he'd have overun & conquered Britain, basically we got lucky because the German generals were so afraid of Hitler that they allowed this tactically inept buffoon, who'd been lucky in the past, to lead them to defeat.
  • Posts: 2,341
    Just a footnote: Napoleon and Hitler were not the only ones to try an invasion of Russia, lets not forget Charles XII of Sweden tried it in 1708 and got the same thing that befell Le Grand Armee in 1812 and the Wehrmacht in WW2.

    Eighteenth, Nineteeth, and Twentieth century all failed invasions. Anybody care to try it in the Twenty-First?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The only place that seems more difficult to take down is Afghanistan.
  • Posts: 2,341
    bondjames wrote: »
    The only place that seems more difficult to take down is Afghanistan.


    :))

    I have a question relating to WW2: Was the UK ever in any real danger of invasion in 1940? I don't think so. The German high command had no idea how to mount a sea born invasion as the only country that had experience at it was Japan; a naval blockage was out of the question as the Kriegsmarine was no match for the Home Fleet: a U boat blockage would have required 200 boats and at the time Germany only had 17 U boats.
    Besides Hitler never wanted to fight the British, whom he considered to be good Aryans like the Germans. He felt the French were decadent and the Russians were filthy barbaric Slavs not much better than Jews, Gypsies and Blacks.

    He was hoping that the threat would force Britain to the bargaining table. Having failed at that he began planning but the mishandling of the Battle of Britain caused that door to shut. By Dec 1940 he began to draw up plans to invade the Soviet Union. Thus forgetting the UK altogether.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    bondjames wrote: »
    The only place that seems more difficult to take down is Afghanistan.

    Your not wrong, in country was shear hell on earth, it was an unwinable war, securing any position was a F**king impossiblity, you felt eyes on you everywhere, you couldn't distinguish between friend or foe, lost some good friends, still have nightmares most weeks, hugging my wife right now, crazy, what a f**ked up world.

  • Posts: 7,653
    Suddenly people like Putin, the man who wants to return Russia to the former glory, a flipping worse sociopath than Gadhaffi, Assad, Hussein put together. That the Russian army/air-force suddenly pops up in oil countries and takes all the attention away from Crimea & Ukraine has nothing to do with eachother?- This little war with IS takes place in the backyard of Russia so what took them so long?- It is not like the Russians got their behind kicked before by the Taliban in a country called Afghanistan.

    Anybody cheering the policies of Putin can be considered a headcase, the man is not interested in anything the West wants after all he still covers Assads behind, the man who has killed more Syrians than IS has done. And causing a mass exodus of moderate muslims to the west.

    This war and its consequences is a incredible mess and I find the democratic chosen leaders that try and steer through the sh&te with diplomacy of bigger intelligence than those who want to walk in with guns blazing and bombing the crap out of IS and too many innocent bystanders that cannot go anywhere because in essence they are kept hostage and human shield. Becoming a feeding ground for hatred towards the West which in itself is a nice source for new radicals.
    The likes of Obama who does not want to make the matters worse than they already are should be cherished instead of those idiots who serve the weapon industries and want a bigger army, more bombs and more war. For f..... sake we already have enough war to keep mankind at the brink of self destruction.
  • Posts: 2,341
    Eisenhower warned about this. The Industrial-Military complex in the USA has a stranglehold on politicians. This is a 600 billion dollar industry. They started this after WW2 and look at us now. They build factories in many rural states and create jobs, Congressmen and Senators won't campaign for cutting the budget because many of their constituents would be out of work....
    If a President ever tried to take it down, he would get "JFK'd".

    End result: we have been at war since the end of WW2 yet we have never declared war since 1942.
    Obscene defense budget that drains our resources and while the military has what it wants (but does not necessarily need) the rest of the country is going to sh*t. Bridges falling down, schools a joke, and don't ever get sick in the USA you are really screwed with our frakked up health care system. Why so many retirees move to Central America these days....
  • We can all talk about history, military plans & what might have been, but IMHO & experience I think Colin Powell summed it up best " NO PLAN IN THE HISTORY OF MILITARY PLANNING HAS SURVIVED CONTACT WITH THE ENEMY"
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615

    First 14 mins
  • Posts: 15,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    All this suffering because that idiot George Bush had a hard on for a third rate Iraqi dictator. Surrounded by hawks and sheep who were too busy kissing his lone star ass (Tony Blair included).
    Only Colin Powell was willing to lend a dissenting voice but he was quickly shouted down (and being a career soldier and like Admiral Yamamoto) he decided to follow orders of his superiors. Remember those speeches he made at the UN one could tell from his body language that he was not 100% on board and he left after Bush's second term began.
    Today George Bush lives in his 4 million dollar mansion in North Dallas surrounded by a Secret Service detail ( and being the sociopath he is) never losing any sleep over the pain and suffering he has caused.

    The thing is France did not go to war I'm Iraq. So you cannot blame Bush for this one. Or France for the war.
    The creation and initial weaponizing of ISIL is directly related to that illegal Bush war from 2003 onwards. They are the disaffected Sunni's who were tightly controlled (and prevented from realizing this caliphate nonsense) by Hussein for decades. All their weapons initially came from the US (via the Iraqi army who disbanded and fled, leaving the weaponry and munitions for ISIL). The remainder of their weapons is coming from Saudi sheik financing, which nobody is really trying to shut down interestingly.

    France was intelligent not to get involved in the idiocy that was the 2nd Iraq war. So was Germany. So was Canada. Britain (or rather, should I say Tony Blair) was the willing fool .

    The UK was attacked on 7.7 when they were involved in the illegal war. I don't think France was. Neither was Canada. Neither was Germany. Correct me if I am wrong. Just want to confirm the facts.
    ---

    All countries that are bombing in Syria/Iraq today (and who have been doing so for the past year and a half) have effectively declared war on ISIL. All countries.... One does not bomb another country without it being war to the recipients of the bombing. Consequently, any attacks on the bomber's shores are to be expected. Did you not expect it?

    Only in this case is it asymmetrical and done by proxy. That is the nature of a guerrilla war. No combatant with half a brain is going to fight a war on the enemy's terms. They want the enemy to fight the war on their terms. They will try to instill fear by creating maximum impact with a minimum cost. They are not going to 'telegraph' their attack unless they are stupid. These people are religious zealouts, but they are not stupid. Notice how all 3 terrorist attacks last week occurred in quick succession, before any law enforcement anywhere could be mobilized to high alert. They are also willing to die (like the Japanese kamikaze), which makes them very difficult to combat, & are also very well funded.

    Okay, Bush was indirectly responsible for the Islamist threat. But all the same: France's secularism and ideals of liberty were also attacked. And at least this time, we have people that will truly defend Western civilization. When the US was attacked by Islamists, who were against sex, against gays, against alcohol, it was defended by a bunch of Christian puritans who had nothing against eating bacon. The response in France has been far different. Like Charlie Hebdo said (freely translated): they have the guns, f*ck them, we have the Champagne.
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