Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Oh I'm fighting for a secular society, @Ludovico, to the point where some of my students' parents complain about me in the principal's office.

    I used to work as a teaching assistant in schools in the UK, secular schools. The term "secular" was to say the least misleading: there was assembly prayers, lead by the local vicar, sometimes even the head teacher.

    I currently attend a Sixth Form in the UK, which is also part of a secondary school. It's not until recently that I've started to see religious observance creep in. As @Ludovico mentions above, I've had to sit through an assembly conducted by a vicar, who proceeded to hold a collective prayer (I folded my arms, head held high and mumbled under my breath at the inappropriateness of it all), as well as having to attend a Christmas "concert" that focused heavily on Bible readings and talks from a reverend (as if one cannot celebrate Christmas without the religious baggage).
  • Posts: 15,117
    Apparently the vicar has constitutional right to spread his propaganda in public schools being Church of England and everything. But assembly prayers should be abolished, period. Especially if lead by the head teacher who has no such constitutional right. I did the same as you MayDay : I folded my arms and mumbled smtg. I should have said something.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    There's really no need to fight for a secular society in the UK. It's already been in place for many years.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Agreed in the last poll well over 50% of the population said they were
    non religious.
  • Posts: 15,117
    If the UK was secular there would be no assembly prayers in public schools, no bishop in the House of Lords and no sharia law tolerated.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2015 Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If the UK was secular there would be no assembly prayers in public schools, no bishop in the House of Lords and no sharia law tolerated.

    Merely legacy remnants of a Christian religion that will fade away in the end. They're awaiting abolition by the British Government. That is, all except Sharia law of course. Then everything will be rosy once we've expunged the last gasps of the Christian religion from the UK (and the world). Please don't kid yourselves!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think the Bishops in the house of lords is just a hang over from the past, same
    with prayers at school assembly etc. Given the state of the world I think the UK
    has a very good system, every one gets respect and yet every religious leader
    gets ignored. :) so everyone's happy.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @MayDayDiVicenzo, @Ludovico, In a previous life I would have been compliant and obedient; at least I would have sat there and not protest. But that's not me any more! Now I'd stand up, yell, "so, who else wants to leave this sectarian gathering and start thinking for him- and herself again?" and walk out in a relaxed manner with the Gladys Knight's Licence To Kill refrain playing in my head. ;-)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    "I'm a Catholic whore, currently enjoying congress out of wedlock with my black Jewish boyfriend who works at a military abortion clinic. So, hail Satan, and have a lovely afternoon, madam."
    I just always loved that line from Kingsman. ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @Thunderpussy, that's a wonderful quote indeed. When I fist heard it in the theatre, I laughed soooo hard. (Was it wrong that I profoundly enjoyed what came right after that?)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    =)) was it wrong ? Definitely fun though. :D
  • Posts: 5,993
    Reminds me of that (equally hilarious) line :



    In France, all public schools are non-confessionhal. There's one exception, though : Alsace and (part of) Lorraine, where r"eligious education is part of the curriculum in public schools. The reason why ? When the las of separation between the Churches and the State was set, in 1905, those two regions were under German rule. So, they still live under the preceding rules (that is the Concordate of 1801). I know because I've lived in Metz during my childhood, and thus had religious education in school proper, and not on thursdays, like in the rest of France.

  • Posts: 5,993
    Reminds me of that (equally hilarious) line :



    In France, all public schools are non-confessionhal. There's one exception, though : Alsace and (part of) Lorraine, where r"eligious education is part of the curriculum in public schools. The reason why ? When the las of separation between the Churches and the State was set, in 1905, those two regions were under German rule. So, they still live under the preceding rules (that is the Concordate of 1801). I know because I've lived in Metz during my childhood, and thus had religious education in school proper, and not on thursdays, like in the rest of France.

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I've always been an admirer of France's laïcité. In France, you don't get Francois Hollande blathering on about France being a "Christian country", or whatever that means, unlike our man Davo.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I wouldn't put too much into anything Dave ( I'm just an ordinary millionaire
    like you guys ) Cameron says. :) Him looking at flooded homes, looking sad.
    Even though he cut the budget for flood defences.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I've always been an admirer of France's laïcité. In France, you don't get Francois Hollande blathering on about France being a "Christian country", or whatever that means, unlike our man Davo.
    There wasn't any of that when I lived in the UK in the late 80's / early 90's. If it's more prevalent now (statements of that sort by leaders) then that's somewhat troublesome, because over time, such attitudes can take hold.

    Ultimately, having lived in quite a few places in my time, I think the UK is still the most secular of the English speaking countries, with the most discerning population when it comes to these matters. That's to its credit.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If the UK was secular there would be no assembly prayers in public schools, no bishop in the House of Lords and no sharia law tolerated.

    Merely legacy remnants of a Christian religion that will fade away in the end. They're awaiting abolition by the British Government. That is, all except Sharia law of course. Then everything will be rosy once we've expunged the last gasps of the Christian religion from the UK (and the world). Please don't kid yourselves!

    There's only one way to be secular: expurging ALL religions from state and institutions of power. As long as there's bishops in the House of Lords and head teachers doing assembly prayers they'll be Muslims asking for the same special rights. With the approval of devout idiots like Rowan Williams. Opposing a religion to another is never a solution: it's replacing plague with cholera. Once there's no official state religion in the UK then we'll be secular. Not before. And we'll be well armed against sharia.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited December 2015 Posts: 5,080
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ultimately, having lived in quite a few places in my time, I think the UK is still the most secular of the English speaking countries, with the most discerning population when it comes to these matters. That's to its credit.


    Absolutely. And this is something that I think the CoE recognises if it has to resort to fabricating "controversies" in order to gain sympathy from the populace:
    http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2015/12/time-for-the-church-to-come-clean-on-the-just-pray-controversy
  • Posts: 15,117
    The bishops of the C of E have as much skills to take wise decisions to run the country as witch doctors.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is time to get rid of all this patriarchal and theocratic fascism.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    There's only one way to be secular: expurging ALL religions from state and institutions of power.

    Sounds good to me. Actually delete 'from state and institutions of power' from the above statement and it gets even better!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2015 Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The bishops of the C of E have as much skills to take wise decisions to run the country as witch doctors.

    What power do they (the 26 Church of England bishops) actually have among the c. 760 members of the House of Lords though? As I said above they are only a legacy of the fact that the UK used to be a Christian country. Quite frankly, what more do atheists want? The UK is already a secular state. How much more uprooting of Christianity is required for atheists to be satisfied? Or will they ever be satisfied? I very much doubt it as they clearly enjoy harping on about the evils of religion and the need for a totally secular state. UK atheists should consider moving over to the US if they want a still religious state to dismantle and leave the UK as it is.
  • Posts: 15,117
    What skill/knowledge/expertise do thry have to deserve even marginally any legal power? Would you be ok with Catholic bishops in the House of Lords? How about imams? And there's no intrinsic difference between them and a C of E bishop: they all have their title because they pray. So they can kick a fuss about same sex marriage law, about abortion laws, they can influence education, etc. They already have illegitimate power. God does not rule the UK neither do the policies the bishops defend influence heaven. They influence this world and real people. Rowan Williams thought Sharia law was a great idea for domestic issues in the Muslim community. How about this for a secular Britain? What did he know that we don't to say something so abysmally stupid? Stupid and harmful. How did his faith contribute to the well being of British people then?

    As an atheist I can only speak for myself. But since this is a secular I want no coercive prayers in schools. I want teachers and TAs to be able to voice their disagreement without fear of losing their job. I actually want head teachers and vicars to pray at home and in churches. Not in a public school. I vote here. I pay taxes here. I married an English woman. An atheist one. So I think I can say the hell I want. I want this country to be more free, more educated, more modern. Everything religions are against.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    And all because the Creator of the Universe one day decided to write a book.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 4,622
    Ludovico wrote: »
    An atheist one. So I think I can say the hell I want. I want this country to be more free, more educated, more modern. Everything religions are against.
    Even by your ignorant standards this is one of the dumbest things you've ever written.
    Wonderful how every time Islamist terrorists go off on a massacre spree, you hijack the thread to go off on one your fanatical ill-informed anti-Christian rants.
    As you have proven time and time again, your understanding of Christianity is next to nil.
    I really do fear a free society run by the likes of you. I don't think the free part would last too long.
    @dimi, I assume there is attempt at moderation on this thread. Maybe @ludovico could be given his own little bully pulpit where he can rant and rave like the fanatic he so obviously is, instead of derailing every thread he stumbles across.
    Do you even have a job? Personally I work for a living, and have life responsibilities, so I don't honestly have the time to respond to all your stupid shit.
    I know for a fact virtually all of the Christians and or just generally tolerant Bond fan types, that populate this board, couldn't be bothered responding to your crap. Its not why they come to the board.
    For the record, I don't really don't give a damn if prayer is allowed in public schools or not. What I care about is a a free society where free men can speak freely and ie put things to a vote when decisions need be made.
    Demi-gods like you I fear would impose an oppressive intolerant ideology.
    On a lighter note do you get out much or are you just pathologically obsessed with promoting your own unique brand of ignorance, spending your every waking hour trolling the web, from site to site, pounding away on your keyboard with not the foggiest understanding of what you are ranting about half the time.
    If you took your head out of your ass for 5 minutes, you'd realize what threatens our free societies, aside from subversive attempts at collectivist approaches to government, would be the imposition of theocratic sharia law.
    Christianity is no threat whatsoever. In fact Christianity thrives in a free society, promotes a free society. Christianity is a rock solid buffer against Sharia Law.
    Yet you rail against Christianity from your altar of high ignorance eg Everything religions are against.
    I really don't care what your response is. I am sure it will fly off your fingers in seconds flat as your obsession apparently has you tethered to your keyboard.
    But I truly don't like wasting my breath talking to stupid people, so I honestly don't give a crap, what you think. You live in an obsessive fog.
    And sorry I am not going to engage this discussion with you. Waste of time. I truly do have work and life responsibilties.
    Meantime it is shame that Islamist terrorism threatens the safety of our free societies, which is why I checked out this thread today.
    ISIS is a real problem. Unlike some though, I am glad there are Christian and agnostic types working together to deal constructively and effectively with this real and present danger.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    @timmer, enhance your calm, dude. I think you're reading something into his statements that isn't really there....
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 4,622
    chrisisall wrote: »
    @timmer, enhance your calm, dude. I think you're reading something into his statements that isn't really there....
    Point taken @chrisisall.. Thank you.
    I don't want to draw you in. Your calmness is a virtue..
    But IMO the man is a humourless obsessive dullard.
    I can respect and tolerate diverse religious and agnostic free expression, but I don't have any time for Sharia law, which is totalitarian.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    timmer wrote: »
    I don't have any time for Sharia law, which is totalitarian.
    Put "law" in the title of a religion and that pretty much spells it out I think.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @timmer, a point well made.
    That said, I'm at a point where I too feel convinced that with all the big challenges we, mankind, have before us, dogmatic, superstitious, magical and irrational thinking is the last thing we need. Then again, I'm also convinced that religion can offer people comfort, can keep some on the right path, ... However, many religious groups have yet to enter the 21st century, still stuck in the Middle-ages as they are.
    I guess as someone with a deep interest in cosmology and astronomy, I'm particularly offended and in fact scared by the way science education is organised in several parts of the world. Then again, there's usually more to it than merely the teacher teaching. You see, I teach many Muslim kids but the ones I have most trouble with are Protestants. Whenever we talk about serious things like the Big Bang, Evolution, the methods of science, the insignificance of man on a cosmic scale of time and space, the age of our planet, genetic manipulation of organisms, artificial medication, dinosaurs, ... THEY're the ones responding violently and very vocally, spitting out passages from the Bible as if that's the absolute truth right there. The fact that otherwise bright kids of ages 17 and 18 can walk around with such dangerous delusions gets me progressively more convinced that this is a problem few people actually acknowledge as such. But some of these kids will become politicians, company owners, military leaders, ... and that right there is a frightening thought. Their mindless surrender to what's been forced upon them from birth seems to incapacitate them to be more critical, more sceptical and indeed at times more rational.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 15,117
    @Timmer-I have a life so I only read through your usual rant. You can believe in whatever you want. So does every bishop and imam. What I am against, and my post is very clear about this, is imposing religious views in the public spheres. As these views are religious they are 1)restricted to the religious group sharing it and 2)unverifiable (at best). Bottom line, bishops or imams have no qualifications to have legal power. Or say the power to impose creationism in the education system. or try to uphold blasphemy law (Christianity thriving in a free society, that's a good one! Tell that to the gays in Uganda as well, where Christianity is thriving too). Or try to restrict access to abortion, or to tolerate Sharia laws in domestic disputes (And former archbishop Roman Williams thought it was actually a brilliant idea!).
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