Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,667
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Religion has nothing to do with this. It is people simply carrying out mindless acts of violence to serve their personal agendas.

    Of course religion has something to do with, a particular religion, just like the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo. The terrorists shouted the infamous Islamic slogan for crying out loud. Yes, there are other factors, but let's not ignore that this was also an act of religious devotion.


    Religion has EVERYTHING to do with this. Seriously, come on!

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2015 Posts: 9,117
    There's a guy from my office who was at the concert and on the missing list so forgive me if I'm not prepared to indulge the usual 'peace loving Muslim majority' appeasement bullshit.

    Especially given that ISIS have just released a statement saying that the attack was in revenge for France insulting the prophet.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Tokoloshe wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Religion has nothing to do with this. It is people simply carrying out mindless acts of violence to serve their personal agendas.

    Of course religion has something to do with, a particular religion, just like the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo. The terrorists shouted the infamous Islamic slogan for crying out loud. Yes, there are other factors, but let's not ignore that this was also an act of religious devotion.


    Religion has EVERYTHING to do with this. Seriously, come on!

    As it did with the Charlie Hebdo attack. Like I said, it was an act of devotion.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited November 2015 Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Religion has nothing to do with this. It is people simply carrying out mindless acts of violence to serve their personal agendas.

    Of course religion has something to do with, a particular religion, just like the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo. The terrorists shouted the infamous Islamic slogan for crying out loud. Yes, there are other factors, but let's not ignore that this was also an act of religious devotion.

    Religious devotion? I know plenty of people from various religious backgrounds, some being victims of hate because of their beliefs but don't feel compelled to attack or launch some campaign against others who believe in something else. Religious devotion is simply an excuse to shove down the throats of people to gobble up. I can walk up to someone on the street, yell, to God be the glory or Lucifer rules and punch them in the face or whatever and say God or the devil told me to do it when the fact is neither had anything to do with my actions. The joke is, these people using and standing behind religion are themselves abusing their own beliefs and convincing the world that theyre the ones being victimised. So again religion in the broader sense has nothing to do with this, its just being used selfishly as a pawn in a very dangerous and extremely tedious game of amature chess.
  • Posts: 15,117
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Not ALL religious people are violent because of their faith. In fact a minority of believers of any faith is a fundamentalist. But it is disingenuous to say these recent attacks are not triggered by faith. The terrorists who murdered the cartoonists did it to avenge their prophet for crying out loud. It's not the excuse it's the motivation. Obedience to a bloodthirsty God as the supreme good. Not all worshippers believe that. But those terrorists do.
  • Posts: 342
    Troy wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm disgusting myself right now, craving blood, stooping to their level. This is what senseless acts of violence result in.

    Yes, that is the big problem - violence begets violence. When Western govts bomb Muslem countries, does this solve problems or make things worse? Look at Syria, the US and Russia cannot agree on who are the bad guys to bomb. In Iraq the US is allied with Iran fight to fight ISIS, but in Yemen the US is fighting Iran with Iraqis and Saudis. In these days of easy travel between countries, and mass migration into Europe from countries we are bombing, it is all too easy for someone to seek revenge

    Yep all our fault as usual.

    No, it's not a question of that - simply that everything is connected. This ridiculous view that everything is black and white, "we" are angels and "they" are evil, and that there is no cause and effect is dangerous nonsense. One of the excuses for invading Iraq was because of 9/11, although there was no connection, but some people wanted blood and weren't too fussy whose - and we are meant to be the good guys.
  • A very sad day for civilized people. RIP.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Troy wrote: »
    everything is connected. (...) there was no connection
    Please talk only about movies, real life is for mature readers only.

  • Posts: 15,117
    Troy wrote: »
    everything is connected. (...) there was no connection
    Please talk only about movies, real life is for mature readers only.

    To be fair (and I disagree with Troy on this particular issue of the Paris attack), he was saying there was no connection between Sadam Hussein and the 9/11 attacks.

    That said, however the bad policies of the West nothing excuses or justifies the wanton murder of innocents. You can explain but it is wrong to blame the victims as some too often do when it comes to Islamist terrorism.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    The lack of options in knowing how to respond is almost as scary as the acts themselves.
    The French President says its an act of war but raising the status to formal war rids them of the label of terrorists and raises them to soldiers acting on behalf of a state - exactly what they want. They want to be part of a formal war, one state versus another. What next, allocate them the rights of soldiers under the Geneva Convention. This is not a war in terms of fighting armys but it is a war of knowledge and rationality versus ignorance and stupidity.

    Cameron says he will redouble his efforts - either this is a platitude or he has only been trying 50% so far - its a platitude. Its the same as after Charlie Hebdoe, politicians literally lining up to support free speech etc but what did their efforts bring 11 months ago? Nothing because we dont' really know what to do.

    And also Cameron offers his thoughts and prayers (he did the same 11 months ago and clearly his prayers were not answered), the horrible irony that terrorists who act in the name and will of their own God are rebutted by global leaders whose route to salvation is praying to their own Gods.
    If anyone thinks that praying to their God to solve this will be more effective than bullets through heads, they are just as deluded as the terrorists.

    There is a dreadful taboo concerning blaming religion (or even discussing the topic) and those of other religions are the first to attempt to give religion a "get out of jail free" card. Until we deal with the fact that religion provides THE direct route for people to behave in such dreadful ways and be totally unaccountable for their actions (they are just conduits doing Gods work after all), then the ultimate solution will be beyond our grasp.
    Paris is a wonderful city. It celebrates thought, art and culture like no other. A dreadful day but I think there will be more to come.
  • Posts: 342
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Religion has nothing to do with this. It is people simply carrying out mindless acts of violence to serve their personal agendas.

    Of course religion has something to do with, a particular religion, just like the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo. The terrorists shouted the infamous Islamic slogan for crying out loud. Yes, there are other factors, but let's not ignore that this was also an act of religious devotion.

    Some people commit violence in the name religion, others their country, others politics, others to avenge friends and family. Many delude themselves they have support of their God. Few accept that they are committing evil acts.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 6,601
    Its amazing, how some people here and everywhere still make it so easy for themselves. Not able to see beyond what is presented to them. A man kills a man, so he is guilty. Yes, partly but not to make an effort to realise, what goes on behind his back is what serves the purpose of those, who are having the wires in their little hands. Look out for them in the biggest industry companies. Obama doesn't want (maybe, just an example) to ruin Alaska for oil. No chance in hell, when the oil companies want it. They and others have seen to it, that he was elected and now, he is and others on the surface are their nice, little slaves or else...this is how it works, many know it, but few would go to really admit to it. Those boys last night had a choice, yes, but to compare them to people, who have a religious belief here, grown up save and in a wealthy country, is hardly a reality check.
    If you are looking for the bad guys - go look versus the US and Russia and all those, who see to it, that war never ends. Such easy money selling arms. And destabalising countries will give them more power en plus.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Supporting your country, a political theory, avenging etc are decisions made by people and those decisions have ramifications. Religion frees people of the decision making process (its Gods will) and of the ramifications. These guys will (in their own minds) be met by a considerable group of virgins in eternal heaven. What county, political group etc can guarantee such rewards? Religion is unique in this but other religious groups cannot admit that as it reflects poorly on their own lack of thought regarding which invisible sky fairy to worship.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Troy wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Religion has nothing to do with this. It is people simply carrying out mindless acts of violence to serve their personal agendas.

    Of course religion has something to do with, a particular religion, just like the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo. The terrorists shouted the infamous Islamic slogan for crying out loud. Yes, there are other factors, but let's not ignore that this was also an act of religious devotion.

    Some people commit violence in the name religion, others their country, others politics, others to avenge friends and family. Many delude themselves they have support of their God. Few accept that they are committing evil acts.

    Because they think what they do is sanctioned and actually ordered by their God. Not every crime is committed for religious reason but this one is. For the love of an hypothetical God. Which even if he existed (and I don't think any God does exist) would not be worthy worship.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Those boys last night had a choice, yes, but to compare them to people, who have a religious belief here, grown up save and in a wealthy country, is hardly a reality check.
    The idea that these terrorists are poor and illiterate is a cliche. The terrorists in January had jobs, and not the lowest of the low.
    Should I remind you the biggest terrorists attack were done by students from rich families, educated well enough to learn to hijack and fly a plane ?
    At the moment, the poorest population of Europe are the Roms who run away from their countries. Where are the attacks by Roms ?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    The lack of options in knowing how to respond is almost as scary as the acts themselves.
    The French President says its an act of war but raising the status to formal war rids them of the label of terrorists and raises them to soldiers acting on behalf of a state - exactly what they want. They want to be part of a formal war, one state versus another. What next, allocate them the rights of soldiers under the Geneva Convention. This is not a war in terms of fighting armys but it is a war of knowledge and rationality versus ignorance and stupidity.

    Cameron says he will redouble his efforts - either this is a platitude or he has only been trying 50% so far - its a platitude. Its the same as after Charlie Hebdoe, politicians literally lining up to support free speech etc but what did their efforts bring 11 months ago? Nothing because we dont' really know what to do.

    And also Cameron offers his thoughts and prayers (he did the same 11 months ago and clearly his prayers were not answered), the horrible irony that terrorists who act in the name and will of their own God are rebutted by global leaders whose route to salvation is praying to their own Gods.
    If anyone thinks that praying to their God to solve this will be more effective than bullets through heads, they are just as deluded as the terrorists.

    There is a dreadful taboo concerning blaming religion (or even discussing the topic) and those of other religions are the first to attempt to give religion a "get out of jail free" card. Until we deal with the fact that religion provides THE direct route for people to behave in such dreadful ways and be totally unaccountable for their actions (they are just conduits doing Gods work after all), then the ultimate solution will be beyond our grasp.
    Paris is a wonderful city. It celebrates thought, art and culture like no other. A dreadful day but I think there will be more to come.

    Extremely well said Sir.

    And just as an aside where does Cameron get off talking about prayers? You weren't elected on a mandate to be a spiritual leader pal. If the guy we, in our wisdom, have elected to have his finger on the nuclear button must believe in this garbage could he please do it in private and not act beyond the boundaries of his remit?
  • Posts: 5,993
    At the moment, the poorest population of Europe are the Roms who run away from their countries. Where are the attacks by Roms ?

    Attacks, maybe not, but riots, certainly :

    [url="http://lesalonbeige.blogs.com/my_weblog/2015/10/emeutes-scènes-de-guerilla-urbaine-et-soulèvements-de-roms-en-isère.html"]lesalonbeige.blogs.com/my_weblog/2015/10/emeutes-scènes-de-guerilla-urbaine-et-soulèvements-de-roms-en-isère.html[/url]
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Not ALL religious people are violent because of their faith. In fact a minority of believers of any faith is a fundamentalist. But it is disingenuous to say these recent attacks are not triggered by faith. The terrorists who murdered the cartoonists did it to avenge their prophet for crying out loud. It's not the excuse it's the motivation. Obedience to a bloodthirsty God as the supreme good. Not all worshippers believe that. But those terrorists do.

    I get that but to me, that's not religion. That's criminal. A priest fondles some kids balls that criminal, a Muslim, Christian, whatever religious group who murders in the name faith is criminal. Just because they say it's an attack on their beliefs doesn't make it a religious thing it's bigger and more obscure than that. Summing it up as a religious thing is a matter of lazy comvenience. Cartoon or no cartoon, if that's enough to motivate murders then it's just too naive to lay it squarely at religion. Sure, an offence is an offence but murdering tonnes of people because "they made fun of our prophet" is ridiculous. Even people of the same faith don't subscribe to the same beliefs of retaliation so no its not about religion, it's about a selfish agenda by a bunch of criminals who want people to believe it's about religion.
  • Posts: 15,117
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Not ALL religious people are violent because of their faith. In fact a minority of believers of any faith is a fundamentalist. But it is disingenuous to say these recent attacks are not triggered by faith. The terrorists who murdered the cartoonists did it to avenge their prophet for crying out loud. It's not the excuse it's the motivation. Obedience to a bloodthirsty God as the supreme good. Not all worshippers believe that. But those terrorists do.

    I get that but to me, that's not religion. That's criminal. A priest fondles some kids balls that criminal, a Muslim, Christian, whatever religious group who murders in the name faith is criminal. Just because they say it's an attack on their beliefs doesn't make it a religious thing it's bigger and more obscure than that. Summing it up as a religious thing is a matter of lazy comvenience. Cartoon or no cartoon, if that's enough to motivate murders then it's just too naive to lay it squarely at religion. Sure, an offence is an offence but murdering tonnes of people because "they made fun of our prophet" is ridiculous. Even people of the same faith don't subscribe to the same beliefs of retaliation so no its not about religion, it's about a selfish agenda by a bunch of criminals who want people to believe it's about religion.

    Why were the CH murdered if not because they mocked religion? If they say they murder for their God then they murder for their god plain and simple. Unless they are lying but all the evidence points out to their sincerity. They don't merely want people to believe it's about their faith it IS about their faith. A particularly nasty and nihilistic faith.
  • Posts: 342
    I agree that religion is often an influence - all you need to do is to look back in history to see how many wars are fought in the name of God.

    However my point here is that people are tribal and will fight on behalf of their tribe, in whatever form it may take. At the moment the battle is depicted by some as the West v Muslem, and people chose their side. Personally I think it is more complex than that, with factions fighting over oil supplies, and the ongoing struggle for power between Sunni and Shia especially Western support for minority Sunni governments (e.g. Bahrain).
  • Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    The lack of options in knowing how to respond is almost as scary as the acts themselves.
    The French President says its an act of war but raising the status to formal war rids them of the label of terrorists and raises them to soldiers acting on behalf of a state - exactly what they want. They want to be part of a formal war, one state versus another. What next, allocate them the rights of soldiers under the Geneva Convention. This is not a war in terms of fighting armys but it is a war of knowledge and rationality versus ignorance and stupidity.

    Cameron says he will redouble his efforts - either this is a platitude or he has only been trying 50% so far - its a platitude. Its the same as after Charlie Hebdoe, politicians literally lining up to support free speech etc but what did their efforts bring 11 months ago? Nothing because we dont' really know what to do.

    And also Cameron offers his thoughts and prayers (he did the same 11 months ago and clearly his prayers were not answered), the horrible irony that terrorists who act in the name and will of their own God are rebutted by global leaders whose route to salvation is praying to their own Gods.
    If anyone thinks that praying to their God to solve this will be more effective than bullets through heads, they are just as deluded as the terrorists.

    There is a dreadful taboo concerning blaming religion (or even discussing the topic) and those of other religions are the first to attempt to give religion a "get out of jail free" card. Until we deal with the fact that religion provides THE direct route for people to behave in such dreadful ways and be totally unaccountable for their actions (they are just conduits doing Gods work after all), then the ultimate solution will be beyond our grasp.
    Paris is a wonderful city. It celebrates thought, art and culture like no other. A dreadful day but I think there will be more to come.

    Extremely well said Sir.

    And just as an aside where does Cameron get off talking about prayers? You weren't elected on a mandate to be a spiritual leader pal. If the guy we, in our wisdom, have elected to have his finger on the nuclear button must believe in this garbage could he please do it in private and not act beyond the boundaries of his remit?

    I'll second that very well said.

    As for Cameron he should remember that God has not been elected PM: he has. If Cameron wanted to pray to solve the issue of Islamist terrorism he should have become a priest.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Gerard wrote: »
    Attacks, maybe not, but riots, certainly :
    "maybe not" ??
    The difference between such protests and mass killings is at the core of the subject. One is not the continuity of the others.
    Troy wrote: »
    I agree that religion is often an influence - all you need to do is to look back in history to see how many wars are fought in the name of God.

    But people do not blame the Muslims when the Crusades happened and Christians killed them...

    My opinion is that people who fear to be called racists and then will blame anything but religion, or anything but one religion, are probably fighting inner demons about this subject.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    There is no easy solution.

    We have to ask ourselves if we are ready to give up a big chunk of our freedom to protect us better from such attacks.

    Open borders may not be the right thing anymore.

    Entering a football station should maybe be subject to restrictions similarly to boarding an airplane.
    Maybe even on the entrance to a shopping mall there should be controls.

    I'm not saying I want this, but it is something we have to think about.
  • Open borders may not be the right thing anymore.
    In January they were all French. So far they identified one of the terrorists, he's French too.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited November 2015 Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Not ALL religious people are violent because of their faith. In fact a minority of believers of any faith is a fundamentalist. But it is disingenuous to say these recent attacks are not triggered by faith. The terrorists who murdered the cartoonists did it to avenge their prophet for crying out loud. It's not the excuse it's the motivation. Obedience to a bloodthirsty God as the supreme good. Not all worshippers believe that. But those terrorists do.

    I get that but to me, that's not religion. That's criminal. A priest fondles some kids balls that criminal, a Muslim, Christian, whatever religious group who murders in the name faith is criminal. Just because they say it's an attack on their beliefs doesn't make it a religious thing it's bigger and more obscure than that. Summing it up as a religious thing is a matter of lazy comvenience. Cartoon or no cartoon, if that's enough to motivate murders then it's just too naive to lay it squarely at religion. Sure, an offence is an offence but murdering tonnes of people because "they made fun of our prophet" is ridiculous. Even people of the same faith don't subscribe to the same beliefs of retaliation so no its not about religion, it's about a selfish agenda by a bunch of criminals who want people to believe it's about religion.

    Why were the CH murdered if not because they mocked religion? If they say they murder for their God then they murder for their god plain and simple. Unless they are lying but all the evidence points out to their sincerity. They don't merely want people to believe it's about their faith it IS about their faith. A particularly nasty and nihilistic faith.


    If I was pissed about something and I wanted revenge I'd be sincere and full of conviction to. I'm of a specific faith and it is mildly at best just about bothersome when my faith is attacked and rather trivially too but I don't feel compelled in the slightest to go around killing people just because they believe differently or are taking the piss. I think nothing of it actually because it has no bearing on my emotions and psyche. If it did I can easily hide behind the veil of religion when it's about me rather than my actual faith because like I said, its a lazy convenience to justify my actions. There is a much bigger and wider issue. I'm not a muslim but more than half of my blood relatives are and I can tell you that many of these terrorists don't even know a thing about the religion they claim they're fighting and killing for. Crimes, brainwashing, personal agenda serving, ego-boosting and whatever else unsavoury have yous are being wrapped up nicely in religion with a bow attached willingly received and accepted.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Open borders may not be the right thing anymore.
    In January they were all French. So far they identified one of the terrorists, he's French too.

    I wasn't referring to the latest attack on France especially, but more in general.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited November 2015 Posts: 18,271
    The French people and nation have my deepest sympathy. France is one of the UK's oldest allies and we here see this as an attack on us and our shared values as well. This terrorist detritus will not win, no matter how many they kill. We need to regroup as the West together and remove this terrorist blot on the landscape with renewed vigor and resolve.
  • Posts: 12,526
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Yes, and look where it has got us.
This discussion has been closed.