Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's all so incredibly sad, so many lives taken, for no reason. So many people
    Filled with hate.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Basta!

    As the creator of this thread almost 12 months ago, I ask you to calm down and stop cursing like a mad man, otherwise please leave this thread until you calm down so we can have a peaceful conversation here instead of having ridiculous posts like yours that will cause a heated discussion.

    I'm just sick and tired that people imply that I ignore religion and falsely look for alternative motivations. It's.....sick...and that fact alone derails a previous post in which I tried to be very nuanced, by looking at all the aspects and how it's all interconnected. Context is lost. And only parts of my long posts are used and highlighted. Like I'm the 'wealth distribution devil'! Really, it angers me.

    I mean come on! Qatar is full of Muslims. But they are insanely rich. And they don't cause terrorist attacks. Fact!

    I'm not talking nonsense! I am entitled to have a say about this. But like so many people in here these days, once I do my uttermost best taking all nuances of this complicated discussion, I get slammed for it!

    It. Is. Not. Fair.

    I want, as anyone else in here, that these terrorist attacks STOP! I do! I woke up this morning and at first I had a bit teary eyes. Really! But then I ask myself the question: How can we make it stop!

    Obviously we need to make sure people integrate into society much better! And in the case of France that's a huge problem. But...how?!!? We need to invest on this, especially financially.




  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So far all the attacks in France have been by small time criminals and
    Drug dealers, so I'd humbly suggest they didn't want to integrate in the
    First place.
  • Posts: 11,119
    So far all the attacks in France have been by small time criminals and
    Drug dealers, so I'd humbly suggest they didn't want to integrate in the
    First place.

    Yes, I agree. To a certain extend. I mean, do you really think drug crime and small crime flourishes in rich middle-class suburbs?
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited July 2016 Posts: 1,053
    Gustav, while I agree with you in part - about lone wolf attacks - however no defence whatsoever for such atrocities can or indeed should be offered. I'm sure many people across the planet feel isolated/left out/marginalised from society etc but to cite this is downright disrespectful to all those law abiding people who suffer their own personal & cultural trials without resorting to murder.
    Basta!

    As the creator of this thread almost 12 months ago, I ask you to calm down and stop cursing like a mad man, otherwise please leave this thread until you calm down so we can have a peaceful conversation here instead of having ridiculous posts like yours that will cause a heated discussion. I am tired of having posts like that causing mayhem in serious threads where we should be calm and be in solidarity against extremism and terrorism.

    Well said sir. In an environment such as this, counterpointing or the expression of opinion is best done without recourse to such.


    It's all so incredibly sad, so many lives taken, for no reason. So many people Filled with hate.

    It is indeed.

    Are we able to reason in any way shape or form with fanatics? If not what course of action do we take to safeguard ourselves?

  • Posts: 4,615
    If people dont want to be integrated, there is little Western countries like France and the UK can do. The UK has a fantastic record at integration and there are many communities that have thrived within the UK since the 1950s. It has not been totally smooth and the 80s riots and the attitudes of the Police were obvious issue. But terrorism was never on the agenda. Liberal Western attitudes towards the rights of individuals (gay rights is an obvious example) are in direct contrast to the doctrines openly promoted within certain religions and this provides the foundation. Western culture is portrayed as sinful and against the wishes of God.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Not reported by mainstream UK press - there has been major civil unrest in France in recent months:

    http://anonhq.com/violent-protests-labor-strikes-halt-france-hollande-attempts-slay-workers-rights-investigative/

    There are major problem in France, not just these awful terrorist attacks which might be directly attributable to France's foreign policy and its own treatment of muslims - considered second class citizens:
    In France, the so-called enemy is already within as we have been our own worst enemy. More security, more characterisation of the disenfranchised as “others,” and more Je Suis Charlie movements, are only going to pave the way for further attacks. It is time for French society to realise its own shortcomings. If it chooses to remain at war in the Middle East, if keeps treating its Muslim population as second-class citizens, it cannot shed crocodile tears when innocent civilians are suffering the consequences of its disastrous politics.

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/paris-attacks-state-must-integrates-french-muslim-or-face-more-violence-1181881404

    Murder is murder but even murderers/terrorists have an agenda. Rarely do they kill without some reason and there is more to this than we truly understand. Muslims are treated badly in France (from what I've read and seen reported).

    "France must integrate French Muslims or face more violence". How about they integrate? You know what, I fucking hate religion. I wish every religious nut would fuck off to a big island where they can fight it out between themselves over who knows best. Leave the rest of us to live normal lives. Fucking twats.

    This. In fucking spades.

    patb wrote: »
    "There's nothing wrong with religion to me,"

    and here is more of the issue, religion is perfect and, therefore, free of critique as something perfect cannot be criticised. And anyone who does is labelled as harsh and gets the response of angry caps lock .
    The idea that religion is not perfect cannot be debated without causing emotion and offence in those who are convinced it is beyond critique.

    There is just so much wrong with religion at so many levels but its impossible to have a debate within our current culture.

    And this.
    RC7 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "There's nothing wrong with religion to me,"

    and here is more of the issue, religion is perfect and, therefore, free of critique as something perfect cannot be criticised. And anyone who does is labelled as harsh and gets the response of angry caps lock .
    The idea that religion is not perfect cannot be debated without causing emotion and offence in those who are convinced it is beyond critique.

    There is just so much wrong with religion at so many levels but its impossible to have a debate within our current culture.

    Spot on. It's a disease of the mind. The sooner people jack in this nonsense, the better.

    And this one the most accurate of all. When Peter Sutcliffe said God told him to go round hammering prostitutes in the head they put him in Broadmoor forever. But the bit that made him insane was the voice in his head of an imaginary bloke sitting on a cloud telling him to commit murder not the fact he had the voice in his head the first place. And we are told that we should respect people who believe this magic cloud man who sits there overseeing the world? Fuck off I've had enough of it. Religion is a lassitude of the mind whether you are one of the peace loving ones or not. It's about time the non-believing majority started protesting and marching that religion be classified as a mental illness because we are sick of it.
    Basta!

    As the creator of this thread almost 12 months ago, I ask you to calm down and stop cursing like a mad man, otherwise please leave this thread until you calm down so we can have a peaceful conversation here instead of having ridiculous posts like yours that will cause a heated discussion.

    I'm just sick and tired that people imply that I ignore religion and falsely look for alternative motivations. It's.....sick...and that fact alone derails a previous post in which I tried to be very nuanced, by looking at all the aspects and how it's all interconnected. Context is lost. And only parts of my long posts are used and highlighted. Like I'm the 'wealth distribution devil'! Really, it angers me.

    I mean come on! Qatar is full of Muslims. But they are insanely rich. And they don't cause terrorist attacks. Fact!

    I'm not talking nonsense! I am entitled to have a say about this. But like so many people in here these days, once I do my uttermost best taking all nuances of this complicated discussion, I get slammed for it!

    It. Is. Not. Fair.

    I want, as anyone else in here, that these terrorist attacks STOP! I do! I woke up this morning and at first I had a bit teary eyes. Really! But then I ask myself the question: How can we make it stop!

    Obviously we need to make sure people integrate into society much better! And in the case of France that's a huge problem. But...how?!!? We need to invest on this, especially financially.

    Always our fault. Just give them more money, build a mosque on every street corner, translate every street sign into Arabic and implement sharia law and that will sort it.

    Always an easy solution for the left - just pour billions of public money down a bottomless pit. If we are going to invest in anything it should be in hospitalising people who believe in God and taking children off religious parents and putting them into care before they get indoctrinated by this garbage.


  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Agreed @patb you cannot Integrate those who don't wish to integrate, and In fact
    View everyone in the West as a target, they hate our freedoms, rights and equality
    That we all enjoy.
    I hope the victims and their families can find some peace.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Yes, we need left wing policy to solve a problem caused by left wing policy. We couldn't just close the borders, no, that would be to mean. Instead let's all ignore the death and suffering of our own people, and refuse to accept these attacks are motivated by religion. Because patting ourselves on the back for being open-minded and inclusive matters more than the lives of those killed.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 4,615
    There is an irony that we have a new PM who was the daughter of a vicar. To her, the guy sitting on a cloud is as much a reality as the virgins were to the guy in the lorry. We are no where near dealing with the root causes.
    Obviously, this debate concerns Islam but there is an equal debate to be had re Blair's open admission that he sought devine guidance when dealing with Iraq. They are all equal on the bonkers scale IMHO.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    patb wrote: »
    There is an irony that we have a new PM who was the daughter of a vicar. To her, the guy sitting on a cloud is as much a reality as the virgins were to the guy in the lorry. We are no where near dealing with the root causes.

    And she supports bringing Sharia Law to the UK...
  • Posts: 15,117
    This massacre had everything to do with religion. Like the previous ones mentioned in this thread it was an act of religious devotion.

    Let's stop blaming the victims shall we? They were not disgusting capitalist exploiters, they were not racists, even if they had been nothing could have justified or excused this cowardly crime. Their only crime was coming from a secular society proud of its secularism, which angered a celestial tyrant as petty as he's imaginary.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Ludovico wrote: »
    This massacre had everything to do with religion. Like the previous ones mentioned in this thread it was an act of religious devotion.

    Let's stop blaming the victims shall we? They were not disgusting capitalist exploiters, they were not racists, even if they had been nothing could have justified or excused this cowardly crime. Their only crime was coming from a secular society proud of its secularism, which angered a celestial tyrant as petty as he's imaginary.

    Bravo! =D>

    Every time there is another attack, the left reacts with the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, essentially saying that anyone committing terrorist acts, by definition, can't by a Muslim. Utter rubbish - they're the devote ones.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Oh but the right does it too.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Just confirming my earlier post, new PM on news this morning saying that they will "redouble their efforts" (so what the hell were they doing before last night?) and yet another Cobra meeting. Utterly meaningless clap trap but they are not called out for what it is. They are just ticking boxes re how to react to a terrorist attack (you could re run a tape from Cameron reacting to a previous attack and it would do the job) with no insight at all regarding how to actually deal with the source of the threat.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,716
    'At least' '50 kids with quite serious injuries have been hospitalized after last night's attack. 2 of them have died from their injuries.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    patb wrote: »
    Just confirming my earlier post, new PM on news this morning saying that they will "redouble their efforts" (so what the hell were they doing before last night?) and yet another Cobra meeting. Utterly meaningless clap trap but they are not called out for what it is. They are just ticking boxes re how to react to a terrorist attack (you could re run a tape from Cameron reacting to a previous attack and it would do the job) with no insight at all regarding how to actually deal with the source of the threat.

    It's the rules of engagement PC stylee! Contradictory newspeak which attempts to appease & reassure in equal measure.

    Unfortunately for all concerned terrorists aren't bound by convention nor do they respond to kind words.
  • Posts: 4,615
    You would hope that the fact that kids have been involved would stir us into action and have a new debate about what we will actually do. There is something so much more tragic, thinking about those poor kids both killed and struggling to live as we speak. But, so far, it seems as "business as usual" in how our leaders react.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Ludovico wrote: »
    This massacre had everything to do with religion. Like the previous ones mentioned in this thread it was an act of religious devotion.

    Let's stop blaming the victims shall we? They were not disgusting capitalist exploiters, they were not racists, even if they had been nothing could have justified or excused this cowardly crime. Their only crime was coming from a secular society proud of its secularism, which angered a celestial tyrant as petty as he's imaginary.
    I wouldn't be that black and white about it. Extremism is the issue here.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    I just heard on the news from a source within the French authorities that "France should get used to terrorist attack." There's your answer as to what is being done!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Very sad response .
  • who simply are not able to work themselves up into the middle class,

    I think you should limit your incompetence to box office predictions.

    The cliche "they have nothing to lose" is dead wrong, and we learn that attack after attack, when information is given about the authors.

    Stop thinking in terms of Hollywood movies from the 80s where the terrorists are poor guys who are black market dealers etc. Nowadays local terrorism is also "funded" by people asking for a loan of 8.000E from their banks, and who receive them because they have a proper job. And well, look at the profiles of the 9/11 terrorists...
  • Posts: 4,615
    Spot on, what was the going rate for flying lessons back then? A complex, well planned and well funded attack.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Yes, everything has to be a leftist or rightist issue. Not just a human issue, like it is. Of course it's the political party that's evil, not the people practicing it, just like guns fire without human interaction with them...oh, wait. The idiocy runs rampant, full scale. If we can't stop pointing fingers at others, some blamers had better get ready to waste more empty words on mourning countless more innocent deaths going forward as they struggle to make people believe how one, just one political ideology is responsible for it all. Enough with the fairy tales.

    Do I agree with religion? No, I do not. I think it is largely toxic, divisive, manipulative and above all, the greatest tool for fear ever created by man. Tell a bunch of people they'll go to an eternally burning pit if they misbehave, and watch them dance; I truly get the appeal of it as a social tool for order by madmen bent on controlling a populace, but it's grown into its own cancer over time, and quickly. How many people have we lost to fundamentalist, blinding religion in wars, in attacks, in acts of violence, hate and resentment?

    With this all said, I do not think religion should be exercised into obscurity or shut down, and certainly not made to be illegal, as that is beyond ludicrous. It should never be that a minority of jackasses like those who orchestrate these attacks should ruin it for the good majority for have a faith that is unattached to this unique brand of hatred and terror. For as bad as the things it may cause are, there are still a majority who practice religion the way it should be done. There are many good people out there who just so happen to be religious, like most of my family, and those people feel a need to believe in a higher power to get them through the day. I think that alone points to how disorderly the world is and how they should be questioning their faith, but there you have it.

    I completely get why people need to tell themselves that a man in the sky is looking out for them and doing his best to give them a greater purpose, preparing them for final judgement, and on and on and on. While I cannot believe this, simply because it fails every trial of logic I place in front of it, I would never ask a government to stop people from practicing something like religion as long as it was done correctly. What needs to change in religion are the tenets of the main religions, especially Catholicism, who is the face of it and how we can alter how organized religion is practiced overall. To take a western example, the Vatican shouldn't be the final say on who is a sinner, nor should they be their own private bank at this point who can pay off people to go hush hush on all the very non-Christian things that go on inside its walls so as not to hurt membership worse than it already is. The Vatican in the past was run by men who knew the bible was full of it, and they used their position to exercise their power in ways that made them gods among men and more rich in wealth, influence and control than any man in Rome, men who they brainwashed into believing everything they said.

    Nowadays we've got that on a global scale, with popes raging wars against gays and other aspects of our humanity that are natural and born to us, and therefore not wrong. The Vatican thinks what God has given us is beautiful and pure and natural, except if you are homosexual or transgender, in which case it's not God who did that to you, and only your choice alone that needs to be "fixed" before judgement day. In addition, they are still pushing antiquated ideas that priests must remain celibate and not marry, then they act surprised and try to hide it when those very priests develop unhealthy ideas of sexuality and try to get it anywhere they can (like from altar boys) because the church has told them they can't partake in the act of sex, the most natural thing in our biological make-up.

    Point being, don't focus on the majority of peaceful practicing religious people. Focus on the major organized centers of it that are brainwashing and leading divisive operations against those seen as different by their marching orders, express from "God." That's where the real change can begin.
  • Posts: 15,117
    jake24 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    This massacre had everything to do with religion. Like the previous ones mentioned in this thread it was an act of religious devotion.

    Let's stop blaming the victims shall we? They were not disgusting capitalist exploiters, they were not racists, even if they had been nothing could have justified or excused this cowardly crime. Their only crime was coming from a secular society proud of its secularism, which angered a celestial tyrant as petty as he's imaginary.
    I wouldn't be that black and white about it. Extremism is the issue here.

    O.k. extremism caused by...? Yes you guessed it: religious devotion. When you claim to a divine, revealed truth that should not be questioned, the core of the problem is that claim.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Some very good and fair points but , it is the majority of "peace loving practicing" religious people that give power to those who seek it within organised religion. Many religious people don't seem to be happy if they are on their own. They seek strength by being in a large group (or flock as christian's say). And these large groups enable leaders to have power over the group. A type of power that is unique to religion and beyond the political power of other leaders. If religion was purely about individuals finding their own spiritual truth and keeping that to themselves, I am in no doubt I would not be typing these words and 84 people would still be alive this morning.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Yes, everything has to be a leftist or rightist issue. Not just a human issue, like it is. Of course it's the political party that's evil, not the people practicing it, just like guns fire without human interaction with them...oh, wait. The idiocy runs rampant, full scale. If we can't stop pointing fingers at others, some blamers had better get ready to waste more empty words on mourning countless more innocent deaths going forward as they struggle to make people believe how one, just one political ideology is responsible for it all. Enough with the fairy tales.

    Do I agree with religion? No, I do not. I think it is largely toxic, divisive, manipulative and above all, the greatest tool for fear ever created by man. Tell a bunch of people they'll go to an eternally burning pit if they misbehave, and watch them dance; I truly get the appeal of it as a social tool for order by madmen bent on controlling a populace, but it's grown into its own cancer over time, and quickly. How many people have we lost to fundamentalist, blinding religion in wars, in attacks, in acts of violence, hate and resentment?

    With this all said, I do not think religion should be exercised into obscurity or shut down, and certainly not made to be illegal, as that is beyond ludicrous. It should never be that a minority of jackasses like those who orchestrate these attacks should ruin it for the good majority for have a faith that is unattached to this unique brand of hatred and terror. For as bad as the things it may cause are, there are still a majority who practice religion the way it should be done. There are many good people out there who just so happen to be religious, like most of my family, and those people feel a need to believe in a higher power to get them through the day. I think that alone points to how disorderly the world is and how they should be questioning their faith, but there you have it.

    I completely get why people need to tell themselves that a man in the sky is looking out for them and doing his best to give them a greater purpose, preparing them for final judgement, and on and on and on. While I cannot believe this, simply because it fails every trial of logic I place in front of it, I would never ask a government to stop people from practicing something like religion as long as it was done correctly. What needs to change in religion are the tenets of the main religions, especially Catholicism, who is the face of it and how we can alter how organized religion is practiced overall. To take a western example, the Vatican shouldn't be the final say on who is a sinner, nor should they be their own private bank at this point who can pay off people to go hush hush on all the very non-Christian things that go on inside its walls so as not to hurt membership worse than it already is. The Vatican in the past was run by men who knew the bible was full of it, and they used their position to exercise their power in ways that made them gods among men and more rich in wealth, influence and control than any man in Rome, men who they brainwashed into believing everything they said.

    Nowadays we've got that on a global scale, with popes raging wars against gays and other aspects of our humanity that are natural and born to us, and therefore not wrong. The Vatican thinks what God has given us is beautiful and pure and natural, except if you are homosexual or transgender, in which case it's not God who did that to you, and only your choice alone that needs to be "fixed" before judgement day. In addition, they are still pushing antiquated ideas that priests must remain celibate and not marry, then they act surprised and try to hide it when those very priests develop unhealthy ideas of sexuality and try to get it anywhere they can (like from altar boys) because the church has told them they can't partake in the act of sex, the most natural thing in our biological make-up.

    Point being, don't focus on the majority of peaceful practicing religious people. Focus on the major organized centers of it that are brainwashing and leading divisive operations against those seen as different by their marching orders, express from "God." That's where the real change can begin.

    Yeah, you're right, the Vatican are probably behind it. #-o
  • Posts: 6,601
    Yes, the Vatican and others. The church first row as usual though.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The one thing that has to be done is closing the borders. Today.
    Schengen only happened for the big companies. It has not brought us anything than trouble and made the rich even richer.

    I even don't know anymore who is living in my neighborhood. It could be someone from the East slowly turning into a terrorist, living here since 5 years.

    Is this sounding populist? Maybe.

    I'm saying this as a social and economic liberal. But the EU overdid it with economic liberalism (it has turned neo-liberal at its core).

    I'll never vote right-conservative, but I get why so many people do these days and there will be more and more countries turning far right.
    It will do the EU in.

    ______________________

    This latest attack is too close for comfort. I know many people in Cannes and Nice. I'm there every Spring. I have friends there, I couldn't reach any of them up to an hour ago.
    And now it has happened. Because now I know someone who is a victim.

    I'm devastated and it feels not good. I'm angry beyond words and not sure how to handle my feelings.

    My heart goes out to all the relatives of the many victims that were living in a place of harmony and peace in Nice/Cannes. Nothing will ever feel save anymore for most of them.
    I'm really holding back on my anger here. Still, I'm glad I can write this down. It helps coping with my feelings.
    The dead have to be mourned. But I know personally that being the one "that lived" is not an easy thing to process.
    We have to care for the ones that survived and will be damaged for life.

    Jason.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Anyone is entitled to their beliefs. But thats where it begins and ends. As soon as you leave your house or place of worship, you should get no special privileges, your opinion doesn't count for more, you don't go to the front of the queue, and you absolutely shouldn't expect people to believe what you do or think your beliefs are above reproach, criticism or scrutiny.

    The sooner the human race outgrows this childish, naive, prehistoric attempt at philosophy and explanation of our world the better for all of us.
This discussion has been closed.