Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 15,117
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Not ALL religious people are violent because of their faith. In fact a minority of believers of any faith is a fundamentalist. But it is disingenuous to say these recent attacks are not triggered by faith. The terrorists who murdered the cartoonists did it to avenge their prophet for crying out loud. It's not the excuse it's the motivation. Obedience to a bloodthirsty God as the supreme good. Not all worshippers believe that. But those terrorists do.

    I get that but to me, that's not religion. That's criminal. A priest fondles some kids balls that criminal, a Muslim, Christian, whatever religious group who murders in the name faith is criminal. Just because they say it's an attack on their beliefs doesn't make it a religious thing it's bigger and more obscure than that. Summing it up as a religious thing is a matter of lazy comvenience. Cartoon or no cartoon, if that's enough to motivate murders then it's just too naive to lay it squarely at religion. Sure, an offence is an offence but murdering tonnes of people because "they made fun of our prophet" is ridiculous. Even people of the same faith don't subscribe to the same beliefs of retaliation so no its not about religion, it's about a selfish agenda by a bunch of criminals who want people to believe it's about religion.

    Why were the CH murdered if not because they mocked religion? If they say they murder for their God then they murder for their god plain and simple. Unless they are lying but all the evidence points out to their sincerity. They don't merely want people to believe it's about their faith it IS about their faith. A particularly nasty and nihilistic faith.


    If I was pissed about something and I wanted revenge I'd be sincere and full of conviction to. I'm of a specific faith and it is mildly at best just about bothersome when my faith is attacked and rather trivially too but I don't feel compelled in the slightest to go around killing people just because they believe differently or are taking the piss. I think nothing of it actually because it has no bearing on my emotions and psyche. If it did I can easily hide behind the veil of religion when it's about me rather than my actual faith because like I said, its a lazy convenience to justify my actions. There is a much bigger and wider issue. I'm not a muslim but more than half of my blood relatives are and I can tell you that many of these terrorists don't even know a thing about the religion they claim they're fighting and killing for. Crimes, brainwashing, personal agenda serving, ego-boosting and whatever else unsavoury have yous are being wrapped up nicely in religion with a bow attached willingly received and accepted.

    Your personal faith or the faith of those moderate believers is irrelevant here. What is the terrorist's motivation, in this instance, if not his faith? Which is different than yours and even those who share at leas the belief in the same god and the same holy book.
  • Posts: 12,526
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?

    Yes, and it is inevitable. The economic implications of border restrictions are concerning though.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.
    Agreed. This is a war. Pure and simple. Ironically, the Pope said it best today.
  • Posts: 12,526
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?

    Yes, and it is inevitable. The economic implications of border restrictions are concerning though.

    I see the Eastern parts of Europe throwing up razor wire fences, it's like they are turning Europe in a fortress.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?

    Yes, and it is inevitable. The economic implications of border restrictions are concerning though.

    I see the Eastern parts of Europe throwing up razor wire fences, it's like they are turning Europe in a fortress.
    And this was always going to be the likely end game scenario when fighting a faceless, nameless enemy like this in an open society. An asymmetric threat. Freedoms fall first. The economic impact comes later.
  • Posts: 15,117
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?
  • Posts: 12,526
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?

    Yes, and it is inevitable. The economic implications of border restrictions are concerning though.

    I see the Eastern parts of Europe throwing up razor wire fences, it's like they are turning Europe in a fortress.
    And this was always going to be the likely end game scenario when fighting a faceless, nameless enemy like this in an open society. An asymmetric threat. Freedoms fall first. The economic impact comes later.

    I know Russia has relatively strong ties with Assad, but Russia, Europe, and the Arab states should take a joint ground attack to IS in Iraq and Syria to stamp the threat out altogether? Take a WW3 approach to this crisis. Then perhaps the innocents of their terror can return home to rebuild their lives.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    RIP to all the innocent people who have lost their lives. I believe that their could be a possibility that IS may have taken advantage of the Migrant crisis and sneaked believers into Europe. How long are the Europeans going to sit back?

    Germany is currently welcoming EVERYBODY with open arms.

    I say this unbiased, just stating a fact.

    The free movement around the EU is going to be under serious threat very soon i think?

    Yes, and it is inevitable. The economic implications of border restrictions are concerning though.

    I see the Eastern parts of Europe throwing up razor wire fences, it's like they are turning Europe in a fortress.
    And this was always going to be the likely end game scenario when fighting a faceless, nameless enemy like this in an open society. An asymmetric threat. Freedoms fall first. The economic impact comes later.

    I know Russia has relatively strong ties with Assad, but Russia, Europe, and the Arab states should take a joint ground attack to IS in Iraq and Syria to stamp the threat out altogether? Take a WW3 approach to this crisis. Then perhaps the innocents of their terror can return home to rebuild their lives.

    It's not that simple. This is really a headless, faceless threat. It's distributed & decentralized. If you take out the leadership, it will still operate elsewhere (witness all the Al Qaueda affiliates). As long as the cause is worth the effort (and it appears to be so with them) they will continue to do this sort of thing. Any success only makes them stronger willed and more ambitious. Moreover, a lot of the attackers are home grown (UK 7.7 and CH)

    As I said during CH, Europe is most at risk because of schengen. UK & US are safer due to natural borders but still there are risks.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?

    It's the hatred of the Western world and its liberal democracy values. This terrorist detritus cannot be reasoned with; they want nothing less than the complete destruction of Western civilisation. They will therefore never be satisfied and cannot rationally be reasoned with. Their reading of Islam is false as they have been radicalised by hate preachers and other extremists. Ordinary peace-loving Muslims are not the problem here.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?

    It's the hatred of the Western world and its liberal democracy values. This terrorist detritus cannot be reasoned with; they want nothing less than the complete destruction of Western civilisation. They will therefore never be satisfied and cannot rationally be reasoned with. Their reading of Islam is false as they have been radicalised by hate preachers and other extremists. Ordinary peace-loving Muslims are not the problem here.

    But I'm not talking about ordinary Muslims.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ordinary peace-loving Muslims are not the problem here.
    No doubt.

    The problem is how do you determine who is who? Ask everyone to take a lie detector test? There is no way to fight this threat without losing freedoms in the process. In which case, they win (that's what they want......for infighting to occur)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?

    It's the hatred of the Western world and its liberal democracy values. This terrorist detritus cannot be reasoned with; they want nothing less than the complete destruction of Western civilisation. They will therefore never be satisfied and cannot rationally be reasoned with. Their reading of Islam is false as they have been radicalised by hate preachers and other extremists. Ordinary peace-loving Muslims are not the problem here.

    But I'm not talking about ordinary Muslims.

    I was just trying to say that it was the false doctrine of the extremists that guides their actions, not a true reading of Islam or the Koran. I've related the reasons why they want to kill us in the West above.
  • It's so ironic that those who think they have a better understanding have the most simplistic explanations to offer.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 7,653
    Everybody cheered when they droned the lights out of Jihadi John, today a bunch of criminals under guise of some thwarted religious reasoning cheer because of a massacre they caused. Massacres as this we are not used to as the bombing we do have become sadly no-news.
    My heart goes out to Paris, France the victims and their families because of an senseless act of violence.

    Perhaps it is not all about religion, the terrorists are men who cling to their idea of how the world should be. Them in charge.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    It's so ironic that those who think they have a better understanding have the most simplistic explanations to offer.

    To whom do you refer?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited November 2015 Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?

    Anything can be turned into a religious motivation. It's a convenient excuse to throw around while making your "enemy" look bad or deserving of whatever vengeance wants to be exacted or deemed justified all the while making yourself look victimised. These criminals are users, abusers and opportunists and sadly they've convinced many people it's solely a religious thing rather than that they're a select bunch of vile, horrible oppressive controlling scam-artist scumbags. They're manipulating people into believing it's a religious issue while purposefully dragging their religion through the mud to achieve their own selfish and mean-spirited agenda and convincing everyone that their religion as a whole is being attacked, victimised and is the issue. This is not solely about religion just because a bunch of dishonest and murdering bastards say it is. Propaganda at its finest.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited November 2015 Posts: 9,020
    The IS has targeted the football game between Germany and France because both countries are Christian. That's in their official statement.

    It's all about religion. It's always about the Koran, etc.
    Charlie Hebdo being the perfect example.

    It's a crusade against the Christians.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    The IS has targeted the football game between Germany and France because both countries are Christian. That's in their official statement.

    It's all about religion. It's always about the Koran, etc.
    Charlie Hebdo being the perfect example.

    It's a crusade against the Christians.

    Or rather it's about their twisted interpretation of Islam and the Koran. That's the difference. They think they are in the right; we in the West are "infidels" that must be subjugated under the Islamic Caliphate.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I've just tonight returned from Paris. We didn't know about these terrible attacks till we got off the plane. Must've happened shortly after we took off.
    Really has upset me, not only in the tragedy of the loss of innocent life, but having just spent a week in Disneyland and Paris it's such a beautiful city with lovely, friendly people. My thoughts go out to all in Paris. It's time to fight back against these atrocities that are sadly getting all too familiar. Enough is enough.
  • Posts: 342
    Ludovico wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    These terrorists have many motivations and it's not squarely laid at the foot of religion.

    BUT my point is: you cannot disregard the religious motivation. Crying "God is great" when you commit murder is not a red herring. What's the apologists' excuse this time? Heavy metal?

    Bush claimed invasion of Iraq was sanctioned by his religion:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html
  • We need to ask ourselves how such pure evil is able to possess humanity. But that's stuff to think about later. Now my heart goes to all the victims of this autrocious attack. I will skip Facebook for the upcoming week.

    And never forget: Good deeds define good people, NOT fingerpointing, so called 'good' words, or tags like 'religion' or 'skin color'. For that reason I'm already disappointed how certain politicians on the far ends of the political spectrum react. Show your respect first.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,116
    Nothing like a religious fringe that tortures and murders you if you don't convert.

    No excuse for killing innocent people.

    This is horrible.. prayers lifted everywhere I hope for the families and friends.

  • Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    The IS has targeted the football game between Germany and France because both countries are Christian. That's in their official statement.

    It's all about religion. It's always about the Koran, etc.
    Charlie Hebdo being the perfect example.

    It's a crusade against the Christians.

    Or rather it's about their twisted interpretation of Islam and the Koran. That's the difference. They think they are in the right; we in the West are "infidels" that must be subjugated under the Islamic Caliphate.

    But what's the right interpretation of the Koran? Or any sacred text for that matter? Muslims, Christians and what have you don't agree between themselves. Don't get me wrong, I far prefer moderate, pro secularism Muslim like say Irshad Manji to an Islamist, but I don't know about a right or wrong interpretation of their sacred text. And neither do you, neither does anyone. I do reject their claims to truth as they are unsubstantiated, and although it is relevant here, what is at the core of the problem here is the ideology. Whether it is built on a correct or incorrect reading of holy scriptures is non sequitur: at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,116
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    The IS has targeted the football game between Germany and France because both countries are Christian. That's in their official statement.

    It's all about religion. It's always about the Koran, etc.
    Charlie Hebdo being the perfect example.

    It's a crusade against the Christians.

    Or rather it's about their twisted interpretation of Islam and the Koran. That's the difference. They think they are in the right; we in the West are "infidels" that must be subjugated under the Islamic Caliphate.

    But what's the right interpretation of the Koran? Or any sacred text for that matter? Muslims, Christians and what have you don't agree between themselves. Don't get me wrong, I far prefer moderate, pro secularism Muslim like say Irshad Manji to an Islamist, but I don't know about a right or wrong interpretation of their sacred text. And neither do you, neither does anyone. I do reject their claims to truth as they are unsubstantiated, and although it is relevant here, what is at the core of the problem here is the ideology. Whether it is built on a correct or incorrect reading of holy scriptures is non sequitur: at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.

    Whatever but don't kill me for not believing what you do. That's what it boils down to.

    (don't mean you.)

    These terrorists are murders and monsters ..use whatever excuse they want.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,116
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.
    @mcdonbb, I don't think any belief should be uncompromising. Nobody should have absolute beliefs in my view. That's my philosophy.

    We always learn new things and we should be open to changing our views based on new information. To yield to new ideas.
  • Posts: 15,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Agreed. But the problem with religious fundamentalism is that this one has supernatural/metaphysical claims. So it is too often excused or even sometimes justified. Not only when religious fundies resort to violence, but when they call for censorship or for imposing religious values to secular societies.
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