Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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Comments

  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited July 2016 Posts: 1,053
    bondjames wrote: »
    Fair enough. That's a valid point. I did say 'seem' whereas your comments on me suggest definite point of view.

    What's your counter to why we don't see the threads open up here when there is violence in a Muslim country? What's your counter to how ISIL is attacking Muslim countries as well? How does that play into this being an Islam against the West narrative?

    I didn't say I had a counter to that. It is perhaps because this is a western based forum (I don't know if we have any Arabic members?). I wonder how many (secular) Arabic based forums report on western terrorist attacks/incidents above those within their immediate geographic locations?

    By diligent use of smoke & mirrors the focus of attention of this topic has been neatly steered away from the fact that terrorists have killed people. There can be no defence offered for any of these acts (nor defence for constant meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by the west).

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    stag wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Fair enough. That's a valid point. I did say 'seem' whereas your comments on me suggest definite point of view.

    What's your counter to why we don't see the threads open up here when there is violence in a Muslim country? What's your counter to how ISIL is attacking Muslim countries as well? How does that play into this being an Islam against the West narrative?

    I didn't say I had a counter to that. It is perhaps because this is a western based forum (I don't know if we have any Arabic members?). I wonder how many (secular) Arabic based forums report on western terrorist attacks/incidents above those within their immediate geographic locations?

    By diligent use of smoke & mirrors the focus of attention of this topic has been neatly steered away from the fact that terrorists have killed people. There can be no defence offered for any of these acts (nor defence for constant meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by the west).
    Listen, some of us have been on this forum for some time and have had intensive debates on this subject over the years. There is no attempt to 'steer' the discussion away from terrorists having killed people. We all realize what a disgusting tragedy this is.

    For your information, these discussions inevitably veer towards religion and Islam in particular.

    @Gustav_Graves made a good point that Turkey was also attacked. It is a Muslim nation. However, he didn't go far enough in my view, because Turkey is also a Nato nation. What about the non-Nato nations that were attacked? I believe it's important to keep in mind that ISIL is attacking these nations as well.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 2,015
    I think it's dangerous if people consistently are being stigmatized as some kind of criminal group or dangerous faction that threatens democracy.

    You mean like each time you describe terrorists as mere logical victims of their alleged low class status created by their religion : in brief, you say, beware of the muslims in Europe, right ?

    First, if you were not blinded by your cliches and rather stick to the facts, you'd have stopped saying that for long.

    Second, it means, yes, you're a leftist, paternalist, racist. There are a lot of very poor people of minoritary religions everywhere who don't become terrorists, your explanation is dead wrong. You need money, you see, to buy guns and so on (the Nice terrorist sold his car to buy what he needed - well, not every poor has a car...)

    "US/Chinese audience are too dumb for SPECTRE" is racism from you that is "acceptable" because we know it comes from your desire to "explain" why your predictions were wrong. But please stop talking about serious matters with so simple-minded sociology.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think it's dangerous if people consistently are being stigmatized as some kind of criminal group or dangerous faction that threatens democracy.

    You mean like each time you describe terrorists as mere logical victims of their alleged low class status created by their religion : in brief, you say, beware of the muslims in Europe, right ?

    First, if you were not blinded by your cliches and rather stick to the facts, you'd have stopped saying that for long.

    Second, it means, yes, you're a leftist, paternalist, racist. There are a lot of very poor people of minoritary religions everywhere who don't become terrorists, your explanation is dead wrong. You need money, you see, to buy guns and so on (the Nice terrorist sold his car to buy what he needed - well, not every poor has a car...)

    "US/Chinese audience are too dumb for SPECTRE" is racism from you that is "acceptable" because we know it comes from your desire to "explain" why your predictions were wrong. But please stop talking about serious matters with so simple-minded sociology.
    What are you talking about? If you have a personal beef with me and other posters here who you pick on from time to time you can take it off line. Do you really have to come on here, draw linkages that don't exist and accuse people of racism?
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited July 2016 Posts: 1,053
    bondjames wrote: »
    stag wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Fair enough. That's a valid point. I did say 'seem' whereas your comments on me suggest definite point of view.

    What's your counter to why we don't see the threads open up here when there is violence in a Muslim country? What's your counter to how ISIL is attacking Muslim countries as well? How does that play into this being an Islam against the West narrative?

    I didn't say I had a counter to that. It is perhaps because this is a western based forum (I don't know if we have any Arabic members?). I wonder how many (secular) Arabic based forums report on western terrorist attacks/incidents above those within their immediate geographic locations?

    By diligent use of smoke & mirrors the focus of attention of this topic has been neatly steered away from the fact that terrorists have killed people. There can be no defence offered for any of these acts (nor defence for constant meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by the west).
    Listen, some of us have been on this forum for some time and have had intensive debates on this subject over the years. There is no attempt to 'steer' the discussion away from terrorists having killed people. We all realize what a disgusting tragedy this is.

    For your information, these discussions inevitably veer towards religion and Islam in particular.

    @Gustav_Graves made a good point that Turkey was also attacked. It is a Muslim nation. However, he didn't go far enough in my view, because Turkey is also a Nato nation. What about the non-Nato nations that were attacked? I believe it's important to keep in mind that ISIL is attacking these nations as well.


    Listen, some of us have been on this forum for some time and have had intensive debates on this subject over the years So just because I am a newcomer does that mean I cannot express my opinion? We are speaking on this thread not any other. As with all 'arms open wide' orators you seem mighty quick to turn if people don't share your POV. That & the associated intolerance says more about people who share your own belief systems than perhaps you would like.

    If we all truly agree that this is indeed a disgusting tragedy ( On what evidence? Your assumptions? :\"> ) then there should be no reasoning nor defence offered for this or any other act of terror - regardless of the 'side' perpetrating it.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I think it's dangerous if people consistently are being stigmatized as some kind of criminal group or dangerous faction that threatens democracy.

    You mean like each time you describe terrorists as mere logical victims of their alleged low class status created by their religion : in brief, you say, beware of the muslims in Europe, right ?

    First, if you were not blinded by your cliches and rather stick to the facts, you'd have stopped saying that for long.

    Second, it means, yes, you're a leftist, paternalist, racist. There are a lot of very poor people of minoritary religions everywhere who don't become terrorists, your explanation is dead wrong. You need money, you see, to buy guns and so on (the Nice terrorist sold his car to buy what he needed - well, not every poor has a car...)

    "US/Chinese audience are too dumb for SPECTRE" is racism from you that is "acceptable" because we know it comes from your desire to "explain" why your predictions were wrong. But please stop talking about serious matters with so simple-minded sociology.

    WTF?! So saying different cultures have different tastes is racist now? And how exactly do you be racist towards America in general? You need to get your points clear before you start attacking others.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves made a good point that Turkey was also attacked. It is a Muslim nation. However, he didn't go far enough in my view, because Turkey is also a Nato nation. What about the non-Nato nations that were attacked? I believe it's important to keep in mind that ISIL is attacking these nations as well.

    Indeed it is & I thought I had said I agreed with his point earlier? (I may be wrong as I haven't checked back on my posts).

    Terrorism - whatever hue - is terrorism & victims are victims.



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    stag wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    stag wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Fair enough. That's a valid point. I did say 'seem' whereas your comments on me suggest definite point of view.

    What's your counter to why we don't see the threads open up here when there is violence in a Muslim country? What's your counter to how ISIL is attacking Muslim countries as well? How does that play into this being an Islam against the West narrative?

    I didn't say I had a counter to that. It is perhaps because this is a western based forum (I don't know if we have any Arabic members?). I wonder how many (secular) Arabic based forums report on western terrorist attacks/incidents above those within their immediate geographic locations?

    By diligent use of smoke & mirrors the focus of attention of this topic has been neatly steered away from the fact that terrorists have killed people. There can be no defence offered for any of these acts (nor defence for constant meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by the west).
    Listen, some of us have been on this forum for some time and have had intensive debates on this subject over the years. There is no attempt to 'steer' the discussion away from terrorists having killed people. We all realize what a disgusting tragedy this is.

    For your information, these discussions inevitably veer towards religion and Islam in particular.

    @Gustav_Graves made a good point that Turkey was also attacked. It is a Muslim nation. However, he didn't go far enough in my view, because Turkey is also a Nato nation. What about the non-Nato nations that were attacked? I believe it's important to keep in mind that ISIL is attacking these nations as well.


    Listen, some of us have been on this forum for some time and have had intensive debates on this subject over the years So just because I am a newcomer does that mean I cannot express my opinion? We are speaking on this thread not any other. As with all 'arms open wide' orators you seem mighty quick to turn if people don't share your POV. That & the associated intolerance says more about people who share your own belief systems than perhaps you would like.

    If we all truly agree that this is indeed a disgusting tragedy ( On what evidence? Your assumptions? :\"> ) then there should be no reasoning nor defence offered for this or any other act of terror - regardless of the 'side' perpetrating it.
    @Stag, there is no defense. This is a discussion forum. People discuss. The discussions that take place after these tragedies inevitably lead to blame. A lot of that focuses on religion and Islam in particular, since these attacks are perpetrated in the name of Islam. As a newer poster, you have not had the benefit of seeing how these discussions develop. They have done so here in the past few days in the same fashion. Some posters have in the past suggested that they cannot understand why sympathizers in Muslim communities in the country being attacked harbour the terrorists and don't 'out them'. That is due to cultural sympathies as much as religious ones in my view.

    What I was pointing out, by noting that we don't have threads open up here when Muslim countries are attacked, is that we too suffer from such same cultural sympathies. We express more grief here for cases where Western and Christian countries are attacked than when it happens elsewhere.

    Of course that is perfectly reasonable and as expected perhaps. That doesn't make it right. Neither does the Muslim sympathizer feeling a sense of grievance when his brother is attacked miles away. Neither does the inner city African American individual who doesn't want to give up his neighbour even though he knows he may have committed a crime and yet feels more sympathy for him rather than the cops. None of this is right, although it should be understandable. That is my point. Not to assign blame, which I think you misunderstood.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    People need to look up the meaning of the word "racism".

    I myself am not a racist. My own girlfriend has interracial blood flowing through her veins and I love her with all my heart. I'm a proud "culturist" though. I am convinced that certain cultures are preposterously archaic, backwards and dangerous.

    Cultures that allow politics, education, lifestyle, morality and ethics to be controlled by religion, are backwards. Cultures that worship at the altar of a non-existing Creator who demands that all "infidels", homosexuals and women who fight for equal rights be slain, are dangerous. In fact, one might say I'm dreaming of an a-cultural world, in so far as that could be possible of course, because all this ridiculous, stubborn cultural pride isn't doing anyone a favour. From political quarrels to football hooliganism... it's all so childish. I'm not trying to impose my "culture" on others, I'm trying to do away with "cultural identity" and "cultural pride" as a cause for 95 % of the world's problems. In fact, I'm trying hard to release myself from the grip of my own culture, though I'm still in the process of wondering if that is possible at all. I guess being a Bond fan and Star Wars fan and Batman fan makes me a part of a culture too. So is an a-cultural life plausible? I'm not sure.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree with you @DarthDimi, but I will take it one step further. I think this is more than about religion/culture.

    How we identify ourselves, and especially how strongly we identify ourselves (in contrast to others rather than in unity) is a major reason for a lot of the problems in the world, whether it be politics, nationalism, populism, culture etc.

    I've always said, I'd like to identify as a citizen of "The World", or even better, of "The Living". I'd prefer if people look to what is similar among them rather than what is different. The less barriers, the better. The less strongly we identify, the better too. Naive perhaps.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    People need to look up the meaning of the word "racism".

    I myself am not a racist. My own girlfriend has interracial blood flowing through her veins and I love her with all my heart. I'm a proud "culturist" though. I am convinced that certain cultures are preposterously archaic, backwards and dangerous.

    Cultures that allow politics, education, lifestyle, morality and ethics to be controlled by religion, are backwards. Cultures that worship at the altar of a non-existing Creator who demands that all "infidels", homosexuals and women who fight for equal rights be slain, are dangerous. In fact, one might say I'm dreaming of an a-cultural world, in so far as that could be possible of course, because all this ridiculous, stubborn cultural pride isn't doing anyone a favour. From political quarrels to football hooliganism... it's all so childish. I'm not trying to impose my "culture" on others, I'm trying to do away with "cultural identity" and "cultural pride" as a cause for 95 % of the world's problems. In fact, I'm trying hard to release myself from the grip of my own culture, though I'm still in the process of wondering if that is possible at all. I guess being a Bond fan and Star Wars fan and Batman fan makes me a part of a culture too. So is an a-cultural life plausible? I'm not sure.

    Yes, and this is the opposite to the left, which believe in cultural relativism. Basically all cultures are equal and if you disagree you're a xenophobe.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @bondjames, you are correct, sir. It's way more than just religion or culture, though I must admit, I use the word 'culture' as an all-encompassing term that includes politics and especially nationalism as well. I too like to think of myself as a citizen of planet Earth, not necessarily as a European, Belgian or Flemish citizen.

    @Mendes4Life, you make a very strong point. We have gotten so scared of being branded a xenophobe, that we tolerate even that which simply cannot be tolerated. Why should we tolerate cultures that allow genital mutilation as a common practice? Why should we tolerate deadly gang violence in the name of cultural pride? Why should we tolerate the killing of one's own children because their parents are told by some preacher that medical science is blasphemy?
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    There are very interesting times ahead for France. Next year sees the presidential elections. Will the people be driven to the far right by the ongoing rhetoric of their incumbent government? I can't see people being happy when they are told that they must get used to terror attacks so will that unease translate into votes for the National Front? If the NF found itself in a position of power would that make France safer or more susceptible to further outrages? Are we going to see a Europe wide shift toward the far right as a result of unfettered immigration & the perception (real or imagined) of the threats it brings?



  • Posts: 4,615
    There is an irony that some religions have become more liberal because they have abandoned much of the original beliefs and texts. They either just ignore them or turn them into morality tales when , hundreds of years ago, they were taken literally. How many Christians really believe the story of Noahs Ark for example, or "an eye for an eye". There is some really horrible stuff in the Bible but the CofE has just picked the nice bits that are acceptable to a Western liberal democracy and been forced to adapt as we realise that more and more of it is a complete fairy tale.

    The issue with other religions is that people actually believe all of it. In a way, they deserve more respect as there is no picking and choosing. We use the word "fundamentalist" in a very strange way. It is actually people who 100% believe in a religion and carry that out in this World. Our expectation is that those of faith will pick out the good bits and ignore the bad but, if you believe it's the real word of God, then why should you?

    I was watching the movie "Thor" last night and this is what eventually happens when the whole thing is realised as being hogwash. At one time, Thor was as real as our "Christian God" or Islam. Over a period of time, this almighty, all powerful God has been transformed into a comic book character and a figure of fun. Do we see demonstrations outside cinemas by Thor believers? Do we see the producers of Thor gunned down by Thor believers? No...because we know the truth about Thor.
    Does that mean, in time , we will see our current team of Gods relegated to comic book heros? There is no reason why not. But at preset, drawing and publishing a basic cartoon of Allah is to risk one's life.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    @patb You make some good points.

    I wonder if a lot of these 'believers' really do believe in such a ridiculous concept, or is it just to give them some purpose in life, an excuse to be 'part' of something or simply a means to commit atrocities without guilt because their God demands it?

    Or mabey they just haven't evolved enough to question the existence of an invisible being...?

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    There are invisible beings, but if they want you to commit attrocities, tell them to sod off.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Humans have evolved and survived by working in groups, it is in our DNA. Anyone who has attended an amazing gig or sporting event will know that special feeling of being one of many: a collective force. Religion exploits/leverages that. Collective worship is a far more powerful and effective brain washing tool for example (the same with politics). And the singing re-enforces the collective "we are all one" message (why should any God want to be sung to ?) A little like hypnosis, some humans are open to religion. They want it to happen and, therefore, it happens. Professional hypnotists have to filter out certain stubborn and strong willed people from the audience as they simply do not make good subjects and the same applies to religion. Those people who come to your door bashing the bible are trained to filter out those who possibly could be converted. There is no reason to believe other religions are not the same.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    When will this madness end?!
  • Posts: 4,615
    When we gain the collective determination to deal with the cause rather than the effect.
  • Posts: 15,117
    patb wrote: »
    When we gain the collective determination to deal with the cause rather than the effect.

    This. And am I the only one sick and tired of the platitudes and excuses given every time a terrorist attack happens?

  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Ludovico wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    When we gain the collective determination to deal with the cause rather than the effect.

    This. And am I the only one sick and tired of the platitudes and excuses given every time a terrorist attack happens?

    No you're not. The statement by the senior French official "France will have to get used to terrorist attacks" will come back to bite the administration big time.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2016 Posts: 24,179
    The problem is that politicians with moderate views have kept their mouths shut too long. They let the extremists duke it out in election time and either evaded the subject or cuddled both sides at the same time via empty promises and polite requests to please get along. I don't want extremists making the decision. Those who still believe in a cultural coexistence with "respect for all" and "absolute, unconditional tolerance" are idiots. But so are those who, like Trump, believe that closing down borders and denying entrance into a country based on skin colour or religion, will amount to anything. No, the smart people should have taken over but where were they when we were having these discussions in the past? They for the most part ran away from this, afraid to be branded xenophobes or extremists themselves. Their motto: better shut up and let future governments deal with the mess we, through our inaction, keep building, than to get involved and alienate a few percent of our voters. It's better to be photographed planting a tree next to a free way than to speak up against a bunch of really dangerous people. But hey, that's what you were voted for, people. *Sigh* Democracy...
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    stag wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    When we gain the collective determination to deal with the cause rather than the effect.

    This. And am I the only one sick and tired of the platitudes and excuses given every time a terrorist attack happens?

    No you're not. The statement by the senior French official "France will have to get used to terrorist attacks" will come back to bite the administration big time.

    That actually reminds me rather of the British Army saying that they could never defeat the IRA in Northern Ireland as soon as they came to the Province. That sort of talk never won the War, as they say.
  • Posts: 15,117
    That was the solution brought forward by Quebec's premier to prevent Islamist attacks like the one in Nice: more integration. And he worked as an advisor for the ministry of Health in Saudi Arabia. I guess this explains that.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    That was the solution brought forward by Quebec's premier to prevent Islamist attacks like the one in Nice: more integration. And he worked as an advisor for the ministry of Health in Saudi Arabia. I guess this explains that.

    Dont think the advice of a Wahhabist appeaser holds much water.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    That was the solution brought forward by Quebec's premier to prevent Islamist attacks like the one in Nice: more integration. And he worked as an advisor for the ministry of Health in Saudi Arabia. I guess this explains that.

    Dont think the advice of a Wahhabist appeaser holds much water.

    I don't think so either yet although his influence is minor he still has some.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    There has been an incident where an attempted knife point kidnap of an RAF officer (a pilot?) took place while he was out jogging. Fortunately he managed to fight the two men off. They are described as of middle eastern appearance &, while at the time of writing the incident is dealt with by the local police it appears it may be terrorist related.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    stag wrote: »
    They are described as of middle eastern appearance

    I do hope you are not insinuating any links to Islam there? It's the religion of peace after all.

    In other news authorities in Brazil have arrested 10 people plotting terrorist attacks at the Olympics. I'm sure they will have no link to Islam either.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Of course not. Those are rational, sane people who, like the lot of us, want their virgins in heaven.
This discussion has been closed.