Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.
    @mcdonbb, I don't think any belief should be uncompromising. Nobody should have absolute beliefs in my view. That's my philosophy.

    We always learn new things and we should be open to changing our views based on new information. To yield to new ideas.

    That's the problem with the religious. They know are right because they read it in a 2000 year old book.

    Imagine if doctors still did relied on 2000 year old medical reference books; you'd go to hospital needing a triple heart bypass and they would just give you some leeches.

    Here's an idea (seeing as everyone is entitled to their beliefs - no matter how retarded): how about we divide the world up in two? All the religious in one half, everyone who just wants to get on with their life without caring whatever drivel some people believe in in the other.

    No flights between the two and no border crossings and we all go our separate ways. We leave them to fight it out to the death amongst themselves and the rest of us get on with life.

    I'm really rather tired of indulging these people and their childish fairy tales, whichever archaic book they're reading them from.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Agreed. But the problem with religious fundamentalism is that this one has supernatural/metaphysical claims. So it is too often excused or even sometimes justified. Not only when religious fundies resort to violence, but when they call for censorship or for imposing religious values to secular societies.
    Fair point. That would be unacceptable imho.
  • Posts: 15,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.
    @mcdonbb, I don't think any belief should be uncompromising. Nobody should have absolute beliefs in my view. That's my philosophy.

    We always learn new things and we should be open to changing our views based on new information. To yield to new ideas.

    That's the problem with the religious. They know are right because they read it in a 2000 year old book.

    Imagine if doctors still did relied on 2000 year old medical reference books; you'd go to hospital needing a triple heart bypass and they would just give you some leeches.

    Here's an idea (seeing as everyone is entitled to their beliefs - no matter how retarded): how about we divide the world up in two? All the religious in one half, everyone who just wants to get on with their life without caring whatever drivel some people believe in in the other.

    No flights between the two and no border crossings and we all go our separate ways. We leave them to fight it out to the death amongst themselves and the rest of us get on with life.

    I'm really rather tired of indulging these people and their childish fairy tales, whichever archaic book they're reading them from.

    You just triggered the killing of half the world's population.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.
    @mcdonbb, I don't think any belief should be uncompromising. Nobody should have absolute beliefs in my view. That's my philosophy.

    We always learn new things and we should be open to changing our views based on new information. To yield to new ideas.

    That's the problem with the religious. They know are right because they read it in a 2000 year old book.

    Imagine if doctors still did relied on 2000 year old medical reference books; you'd go to hospital needing a triple heart bypass and they would just give you some leeches.

    Here's an idea (seeing as everyone is entitled to their beliefs - no matter how retarded): how about we divide the world up in two? All the religious in one half, everyone who just wants to get on with their life without caring whatever drivel some people believe in in the other.

    No flights between the two and no border crossings and we all go our separate ways. We leave them to fight it out to the death amongst themselves and the rest of us get on with life.

    I'm really rather tired of indulging these people and their childish fairy tales, whichever archaic book they're reading them from.

    You just triggered the killing of half the world's population.

    That's up to them.

    If religion is so peaceful they'll be fine won't they?
  • Posts: 11,189
    There's nothing really to add from me regarding the terrible events in Paris. Thoughts go out to everyone caught up in the tragedy.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    129 confirmed dead, 99 critically injured, and a few hundred more are injured at this point. Insane.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    at the core the specific belief of a fundamentalist is wrong.
    Agreed. Any fundamentalist.

    A religious one (no matter what the religion). A non-religious one. It doesn't matter.

    At the end of the day holding firm to an ideology without compromise (dogmatism) is a recipe for antagonism / lack of understanding and potential conflict.

    Completely but respectfully disagree. I can believe as strongly as I desire ...crossing the line is when that is opposed on others or when that fundamental belief dictates I cause harm to others.

    To add I'm pretty sure what they did was against Napoleonic law.
    @mcdonbb, I don't think any belief should be uncompromising. Nobody should have absolute beliefs in my view. That's my philosophy.

    We always learn new things and we should be open to changing our views based on new information. To yield to new ideas.

    That's the problem with the religious. They know are right because they read it in a 2000 year old book.

    Imagine if doctors still did relied on 2000 year old medical reference books; you'd go to hospital needing a triple heart bypass and they would just give you some leeches.

    Here's an idea (seeing as everyone is entitled to their beliefs - no matter how retarded): how about we divide the world up in two? All the religious in one half, everyone who just wants to get on with their life without caring whatever drivel some people believe in in the other.

    No flights between the two and no border crossings and we all go our separate ways. We leave them to fight it out to the death amongst themselves and the rest of us get on with life.

    I'm really rather tired of indulging these people and their childish fairy tales, whichever archaic book they're reading them from.

    You just triggered the killing of half the world's population.

    That's up to them.

    If religion is so peaceful they'll be fine won't they?

    Yes of course, but it's their religion that is peaceful. Not like, the other's that follow false gods and what have you.

    Although Cardinal Marc Ouellet once said that all religion are good, all religion are indeed excellent. It is the ones without religion that he thinks are dangerous. And the guy was apparently a papabile to succeed to Pope Benedict.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    129 confirmed dead, 99 critically injured, and a few hundred more are injured at this point. Insane.

    Yes, those are truly shocking figures. This is a Sept 11 type of event for Europe, albeit on a smaller scale.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    129 confirmed dead, 99 critically injured, and a few hundred more are injured at this point. Insane.

    Yes, those are truly shocking figures. This is a Sept 11 type of event for Europe, albeit on a smaller scale.

    That was my first thought waking up this morning: 9/11-type attacks going on in Paris. I still can't seem to grasp that it really happened, it's so shocking.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    129 confirmed dead, 99 critically injured, and a few hundred more are injured at this point. Insane.

    Yes, those are truly shocking figures. This is a Sept 11 type of event for Europe, albeit on a smaller scale.

    That was my first thought waking up this morning: 9/11-type attacks going on in Paris. I still can't seem to grasp that it really happened, it's so shocking.

    I know; the scale of it in terms of loss of human life is mind-boggling.
  • Posts: 15,117
    At least nobody blamed heavy metal... yet.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    At least nobody blamed heavy metal... yet.

    As an extension of "decadent" Western society, y'see or some such Islamonazi ideological claptrap. Whatever, nothing can justify killing in the name of religion or ideology. Period.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Dragonpol wrote: »

    I know; the scale of it in terms of loss of human life is mind-boggling.

    Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, this is the worst terrorist attack that happened in France, like, ever.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Gerard wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »

    I know; the scale of it in terms of loss of human life is mind-boggling.

    Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, this is the worst terrorist attack that happened in France, like, ever.

    I wouldn't be surprised by that. The radio presenters were certainly treating it as a very different news event (and it is) on the Heart London breakfast show this morning that I have to listen to at work.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I watched the happenings in France late last night. Horrific. My thoughts go out to all the people that were affected.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,119
    From my perspective part of the problem is the numerous Middle East leaders-turned-billionaires. If the Saudi King keeps collecting his insane amounts of money on Swiss bank accounts, and if he is not going to use it as an investment for his country, for education, for rebuilding healthcare, for offering more freedom....then obviously you can't give the youth of your country perspective and a future.

    I think that is the real problem. Assad and other dictators are blaiming the West. But they don't ask themselves how the Arab Spring started. They don't ask themselves why there is radicalism and religious fanatism in their countries. It's because there's an insane amount of poverty. That's the reason why Europe is facing this immigrant crisis. And that's the reason why only a very small percentage of them are causing death and destruction. And that also goes for gangs in poor suburbs of...Paris, London, Madrid, Amsterdam, Brussels.

    So I think European leaders need to address this. Once poverty is gone, and once people can look forward to a prosperous future......terror like that of Islamic Taste will rot away sooner or later. The sad thing is.....on the short-term no one can do something about it. So this problem will go on at least until 2050. And in the meanwhile we can continue strengthen our borders and raise security levels, but sooner or later one lone crazy bastard is doing it again.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited November 2015 Posts: 24,179
    We invented gods to fill in the blanks. What are the sun, the moon and the stars? Who keeps throwing fish in the water for us to catch and eat? Who is responsible for the rotation of the seasons, for the wind blowing, for thunder and lightening? Unable to answer these questions, we turned to incomprehensible and invisible forces that simply had to exist for if not, the world wouldn't make the least bit of sense.

    Then we created organised religion as a tool of power, to keep our servants living in mortal fear and thus to keep them from uprising and insurrection. Through religion we could order them to sacrifice themselves while conquering the land of the "Unworthy', of the "Unbelievers", of the "Barbarians", ... thus expanding our own territory. Religion became the excuse for a myriad of crimes; it became the ultimate justification for that which rationally cannot be justified. History reveals the frightening truth: religion has always been and still is a measure of control, a tool for war, and little else.

    Then science came. And science managed to explain celestial events without the interference of a divine force. Science exposed the universe as something completely different than what had always been proclaimed by the religious leaders. Science didn't refute God, it never had to; it merely demonstrated, bit by bit, that everything hitherto attributed to divine powers is just another example of relatively simple mathematics, physics or organic chemistry. Thus, science became a threat, for it ate away the very foundations on which false institutions of power, like the Church, were built. It made God redundant and left us far less special. And many were displeased.

    Since the religious power structures had also hijacked our morality and ethics, ordinary people had become some of the fiercest defenders of practised religion. Faith, after all, kept the Devil away; it kept us from burning in Hell. Hence, we were taught to abstain from sexual promiscuity, from hedonism, from the simple pleasures in life. It was never hard to keep the masses under control: their belief in the necessity of a virtuous life was almost automatically passed on from parent to child.

    But three things eventually changed:
    - Science kept discovering more things and putting most if not all of those things to good use in the field of technology, medicine and even more impressive science. Science put food on the table, cured diseases, increased life expectancies and made our lives more interesting overall. Religion had never managed to do any of that.

    - More people received a formal education. More people managed to split the difference between what's rational and sane, and what isn't. More people began to understand that there is no afterlife, no Hell or Heaven, no miraculous curing of disease through the use of Holy Water. More people swiftly understood that what's written in an age-old book had an historical and folkloric value at best. But to use said book as a daily guide in an ever-changing world is utter lunacy. That's like using an Old English dictionary when writing a letter of application for a modern software company.

    - People had enough of priests and other self-proclaimed "wise men" telling them that you shouldn't do whatever feels good, that you shouldn't seek out pleasure, freedom of thought, independence. In the second half of the 20th Century, many youngsters broke free from the chains and tyranny of archaic principles. They were branded rebels, rascals, punks, ...

    Yet not everyone's been this privileged so far. Primarily in Africa, the Middle East and South-America, people are still living like slaves under the umbrella of religious oppression. Even a large portion of the USA, where "Bibliots" as I call them keep living as if these were the eighteen hundreds, still proudly clings to scientific illiteracy and Medieval morality. Yes, even in a so-called civilised country like America, certain states prefer to keep people blinded from scientific fact and truth. Illness is unsuccessfully battled in church rather than successfully in a hospital with the proper pharmaceuticals; and when children die, the crime committed by their murderers - namely their parents - is actually justified with slogans like "little Timmy is in a better place now" and "God wanted it to be this way". And those local primates in the lower eastern parts of the USA swallow this bogus because they were brought up to do precisely that. Because it says in the Bible that it must be so. Didn't you know? Right underneath the text that orders us to stone women to death if they have been raped.

    The situation may even be worse in certain countries in North-Africa and the Middle-East, where people aren't merely seduced by false symbols of power and the promise of Eternal Life, but where poverty and desperation strike hard every single day. Bred to become instruments of Rage and Destruction, young boys and girls, one after the other, fall into the traps set by their leaders, by power-hungry madmen. The many mechanisms that are responsible for things being the way they are over there, are not that easy to analyse. Most of it is purely attributable to politics however. Unfortunately, religion is used as a tool to wreak havoc across the globe. I couldn't tell the lot of you to go blow yourselves up in the middle of Times Square because you know that makes absolutely no sense. But if you had been brainwashed since birth, never received the proper education and were day in day out confronted with what your family, friends and role models keep telling you is a grave injustice imposed upon you by the Devils of the West, you'd consider it an honour to go kamikaze for me in the Big Apple.

    Terrorism makes absolutely no sense. However, it doesn't come from nowhere. It's bred in the fires of political mayhem and Medieval practises by the worst kind of people there are. It must be fought. For there is no excuse for it. Pre-fabricated terrorists are hopeless cases. And newborn "crusaders" are just fools without whom the world would be a better place anyway. But the leaders are of course the worst. Like an infection, they must be exterminated till not a trace of them remains. I'm not saying terrorism will go once religion has been abolished. I do, however, believe that you'd deprive those monsters of their most important tool.

    I am all for a total ban on organised religion. But can we really contain it? Look at Christianity. It was once an underground cult, about to be wiped out entirely. Now it remains one of the dominating religions in the world. Almost every dark page in the history since Christ's birth is written in its name. Christianity has more blood on its fingers than a butcher. And now that it has finally begun to lay low in certain parts of the world - those parts that have since become rather prosperous I might add - other religions, most notably Islam, have begun their wave of crusades. True, not all of Islam will support these actions. In fact, I'm quite confident most Muslims condemn these actions. Then again, I'm a proud advocate of the thesis that a world without organised religion is a better world.

    I feel that unlike what some terrorists claim, the West isn't weak or powerless. It's just patient. However, said patience is beginning to wear thin. The West will not remain quiet for much longer if the bombings continue. Remember, America nuked Japan, twice (!), because Japan waited a bit too long to surrender. In truth, America just needed an excuse to test the efficiency of nuclear bombs in war. Fortunately, our Western ways of handling a military threat have somewhat changed. All I'm saying is, I'd be surprised if the sleeping dog doesn't wake up after another two or three attacks. I hope not, but isn't it inevitable?

    In conclusion, I don't think it's correct to assume that ALL of this is because of religion. I do, however, believe that religion is an important driving force behind these actions and that in a world where people are completely freed from the illusions that religion tends to offer them, where the moral orthodoxy is not religiously inspired, things would be better. Total abolishment of organised religion might also lead us straight to the only thing that can help us escape total extinction: massive reduction of Earth's population. As long as Church condemns the use of condoms, as long as religious leaders keep ordering us to reproduce, as longs as religion keeps women enslaved and their wombs rendered at the mercy of foolish men, this won't happen and our problems will not go away.
  • Posts: 4,615
    What is interesting is that you will find more genuine debate concerning the role that religion played with these attacks in this thread than in anything within mainstream media. The images are full of shocked Parisians, politicians saying exactly the same thing they said 11 months ago and powerful images that achieve little (Sydney opera house in French colours etc etc) and meantime Cameron is a big fan of faith schools which are the most perfect breeding ground for narrow, badly thought out fairy tales. Plus he sucks up to Saudi to sell them arms whilst they act like barbarians re gender equality and religious freedoms. There is just no thought out policy.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Meanwhile, I planned to see Spectre tomorrow afternoon, but today, the theater was closed, and they don't know if they'll open it tomorrow.
  • patb wrote: »


    This angers me. I personally believe my previous post summarizes the real problem:

    From my perspective part of the problem is the numerous Middle East leaders-turned-billionaires. If the Saudi King keeps collecting his insane amounts of money on Swiss bank accounts, and if he is not going to use it as an investment for his country, for education, for rebuilding healthcare, for offering more freedom....then obviously you can't give the youth of your country perspective and a future.

    I think that is the real problem. Assad and other dictators are blaiming the West. But they don't ask themselves how the Arab Spring started. They don't ask themselves why there is radicalism and religious fanatism in their countries. It's because there's an insane amount of poverty. That's the reason why Europe is facing this immigrant crisis. And that's the reason why only a very small percentage of them are causing death and destruction. And that also goes for gangs in poor suburbs of...Paris, London, Madrid, Amsterdam, Brussels.

    So I think European leaders need to address this. Once poverty is gone, and once people can look forward to a prosperous future......terror like that of Islamic Taste will rot away sooner or later. The sad thing is.....on the short-term no one can do something about it. So this problem will go on at least until 2050. And in the meanwhile we can continue strengthen our borders and raise security levels, but sooner or later one lone crazy bastard is doing it again.
  • Religion is the last refuge of weak minds, why can't we all just learn to get along.

    I THINK THE GLOVES ARE ABOUT TO COME OFF....... >:)
  • Posts: 5,993
    Meanwhile, I planned to see Spectre tomorrow afternoon, but today, the theater was closed, and they don't know if they'll open it tomorrow.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    Re the 7/7 bombers, 3 lived in Leeds, 1 in Aylesbury - where is the "insane amount of poverty" there? Three were born in the UK, 1 in Jamaica. As a rule we don't see Jamaicans bombing buses and blaming their poverty. The evidence is just overwhelming that religion is THE key motivator. I am interested in why so many cant or dont want to see what is so clear.
    PS the guy who killed Lee Rigby was born in Lambeth
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Good post @DarthDimi.

    I think, however, that if one were to 'ban' or 'outlaw' current religions, there will be another ideology/new religion that will spring up to take its place. It appears to be a part of the human condition to seek meaning where there is none. To look for answers to those things which science has yet to prove. To seek to make sense of what is currently unknowable.......or currently unproveable. Not everyone is primarily a 'thinker' and not everyone is a 'scientist' or with 'scientific leanings'. Some people just want to 'believe'. It's the only way I can understand why 'religions' exist in every corner of the world, with all manner of people. It's as common as eating, drinking, sleeping and sex.

    So I don't think it can really be outlawed. It's a step, but it could just fester 'illegally', and eventually could create a revolution.

    It's just a part of the human condition, unfortunately imho to be irrational and emotional.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    We really have to blame all our governments for not doing enough and letting the IS getting that strong, when we could have done so much more as early as in 2011.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    We really have to blame all our governments for not doing enough and letting the IS getting that strong, when we could have done so much more as early as in 2011.
    I don't see how this could have really stopped anything that happened yesterday though. They weren't using heavy duty weaponry to my knowledge. The bombs were reportedly made in France. It is the ideology that is the problem. Any guy with a knife can create havoc these days if he is of the wrong mindset.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    patb wrote: »
    Re the 7/7 bombers, 3 lived in Leeds, 1 in Aylesbury - where is the "insane amount of poverty" there? Three were born in the UK, 1 in Jamaica. As a rule we don't see Jamaicans bombing buses and blaming their poverty. The evidence is just overwhelming that religion is THE key motivator. I am interested in why so many cant or dont want to see what is so clear.
    PS the guy who killed Lee Rigby was born in Lambeth

    Because in a PC world, where every so called intellectual can find some reason for why young muslims act this way, I'm sorry it's all so f**king insane and with the greatest of respect F**K religion, you've had your day, your not relevent, so please go as silently into the night as F**King possibly can. Religion is delivering nothing but pain to the world.

    Vive la France, the only secular nation in the world, they will never let religion affect politics.

    France I salute you and from a true Englishman that's hard. ^:)^

    VIVA LA REVOLUTION, DEATH TO ISIS.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 2,015
    patb wrote: »
    (...) where is the "insane amount of poverty" there? (...) I am interested in why so many cant or dont want to see what is so clear.
    I guess some people fear the most to be labelled anti-christian, anti-semitic, or anti-muslim, so they'll keep on saying the economy explains everything or that the victims are to blame. Perhaps they're fighting inner demons about their relationship with religion.

    Also note that in January they attacked cartoonists and Jews. So there was, very quickly, some noise on twitter from anti-semitic and/or pro-muslim censorship supporters that the victims were to blame, etc. Here, the only common point of the victims is that they were 18/35 yo having fun in Paris' Friday night (rock, soccer match, young restaurants). So even the usual suspects that usually keep on shouting "false flag" are quite silent.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    bondjames wrote: »
    We really have to blame all our governments for not doing enough and letting the IS getting that strong, when we could have done so much more as early as in 2011.
    I don't see how this could have really stopped anything that happened yesterday though. They weren't using heavy duty weaponry to my knowledge. The bombs were reportedly made in France. It is the ideology that is the problem. Any guy with a knife can create havoc these days if he is of the wrong mindset.

    Not saying it would have prevented a terror attack.
    But it's a fact, that the IS was allowed to grow and gain more and more territory with now factually having two "failed" states at their hand.

    That could and should have been prevented.

    Even this evening the Germans are heavily debating if they finally should send troops and if the battle shouldn't be fought on the ground.

    The NATO will even decide if the mutual defense clause applies in this case. (invoking the NATO defense alliance).
This discussion has been closed.