Deadly attacks in Paris / Brussels / Nice (07/14/2016)

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  • Posts: 4,615
    Mathew Syed on Sky News at the moment, one of the few journos who seems to understand how deep and complex this issue is.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    I think its wish thinking to think that ISIS is some form of fixed army that can be beaten and something put in it's place. ISIS did not even exist during 9/11.
    They give themselves names and we pick up on that but ISIS can disappear into the fog and a new group rise up again in a new location. It is the philosophy, the attitude, the state of mind that needs to be defeated and that is much harder than swamping a fixed area with soldiers.
    That's why I think a 'strongman' is the only solution for now. The problem is he must be acceptable to 'both' superpowers as well as regional influencers (Iran). Very difficult to agree on this and that's what has held this whole thing up. Some want Assad and others don't.

    I say let it be Assad for now (the only chance) and then transition to full democracy/capitalism in an orderly fashion over 10 yrs or so, with Iranian involvement.............

    The problem then is The House of Saud. They can't stand the Iranians and won't go for it (Saudi sheiks have in fact been funding IS).

    What a mess. That's why Russia coming into the picture is not such a bad thing. They don't care about the House of Saud (unlike the US).
  • Posts: 1,098
    patb wrote: »
    I think its wish thinking to think that ISIS is some form of fixed army that can be beaten and something put in it's place. ISIS did not even exist during 9/11.
    They give themselves names and we pick up on that but ISIS can disappear into the fog and a new group rise up again in a new location. It is the philosophy, the attitude, the state of mind that needs to be defeated and that is much harder than swamping a fixed area with soldiers.

    Exactly.........well said.

  • As I've said "Vive la Revolution........"
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 17,797
    patb wrote: »
    I think its wish thinking to think that ISIS is some form of fixed army that can be beaten and something put in it's place. ISIS did not even exist during 9/11.
    They give themselves names and we pick up on that but ISIS can disappear into the fog and a new group rise up again in a new location. It is the philosophy, the attitude, the state of mind that needs to be defeated and that is much harder than swamping a fixed area with soldiers.
    Yes. You need to defeat their perceived reason for being. Not just have another endless shooting war.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Strongman to govern where? these guys have no respect for international boundaries. where is a strongman of any use?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    Strongman to govern where? these guys have no respect for international boundaries. where is a strongman of any use?
    That's what we had before this mess began.

    Assad in Syria. Mubarak in Egypt. Hussein in Iraq.

    They've replaced Mubarak with Sisi but can't agree on Assad for Syria.

    It's the only way to keep a lid on the fundamentalism.

    Some say this all went to hell when the Soviet Union fell apart. During the cold war, there was a delicate balance in that area (superpower backing of certain sides).

    PS: where do you think IS got their weapons from? Most of it is US material taken from the deserted Iraqi army and the rest is coming from Saudi money.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Let's not forget that not long ago an airplane with several hundred people on board was destroyed by the IS as well (I think that can't be denied anymore).

    As it was a Russian airplane, the outcry of the world was barley hearable. Just imagine it would have been a German, UK or US airplane with tourists on board.

    Today/tonight, of course everybody is thinking about the French, but many ignore that the IS has struck twice within a short time.

    Something has to be done.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    bondjames wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    PS: where do you think IS got their weapons from? Most of it is US material taken from the deserted Iraqi army and the rest is coming from Saudi money.
    Shhhhh! That's supposed to be a secret!
    :-SS
  • Posts: 4,615
    and 9/11 ?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    Today/tonight, of course everybody is thinking about the French, but many ignore that the IS has struck twice within a short time.

    Something has to be done.
    Short term, we need a surgical response I think, but if we OVER-RESPOND we'll be repeating 9-11 and playing into their hands (again).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    and 9/11 ?
    9/11 was coordinated out of Afghanistan, by Osama Bin Laden in a cave. His grievance began with the first Gulf War, when the US stationed soldiers (and planes?) on Saudi soil which he took to be heresy. Bin Laden has been executed, and reportedly Al Qaeda has morphed into regional entities with decentralized leadership.

    From Wikipedia (how many knew that Bin Laden met the Saudi king)?:

    "The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait under Saddam Hussein on August 2, 1990, put the Saudi kingdom and the royal family at risk. With Iraqi forces on the Saudi border, Saddam's appeal to pan-Arabism was potentially inciting internal dissent. Bin Laden met with King Fahd, and Saudi Defense Minister Sultan, telling them not to depend on non-Muslim assistance from the United States and others, and offering to help defend Saudi Arabia with his Arab legion. Bin Laden's offer was rebuffed, and the Saudi monarchy invited the deployment of U.S. forces in Saudi territory.[90] Bin Laden publicly denounced Saudi dependence on the U.S. military, arguing the two holiest shrines of Islam, Mecca and Medina, the cities in which the Prophet Mohamed received and recited Allah's message, should only be defended by Muslims. Bin Laden's criticism of the Saudi monarchy led them to try to silence him. The U.S. 82nd Airborne Division landed in north-eastern Saudi city of Dhahran and was deployed in the desert barely 400 miles from Medina."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    It's all about the oil, to boil it down to tropish simplicity.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    There is a very simple narrative that many including our gov want to follow. The concept that there are good, peaceful Muslims and that there are bad, fundamentalists (many say that they are not "real") muslims. And that there is a clear line between the two.
    The real situation IMHO is far more complex. Take a look at "justice" in Saudi, the way they treat women (stonings), homosexuals, atheists etc. Their interpretation of what is just and fair on these issues is fundamentalist in my book but we turn a blind eye as they keep it within their borders and we sell them billions in arms.
    The idea that a woman can't show her hair (or face) in public (no choice, no option) is fundamentalist in my book but (unlike France) we tip toe around these issues in an attempt to be inclusive.
    With hindsight, we have been too liberal. Too concerned with not offending anyone, too concerned with the rights of minorities compared to the rights of the majority and too concerned with the taboo of racism rather than legitimate questions concerning a belief system that, in many areas, is directly opposed to our own, long held and hard fought liberal heritage.
    Ten months ago, I posted this link after C Hebdoe to show back in 2007, some were bending over backwards not to offend Muslims rather than defend freedom of speech and I make no apology for posting it again. (listen to the applause at 1.45)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @patb, I do agree that when in Rome one must do as the Romans do. What they do in their own countries is their own problem, but when they come over, they must adapt imho, difficult as that may be for some. It's the only way to integrate into a new society. Strongly held religious beliefs which can be the cause of conflict with the majority must be relinquished for the greater good.

    I think that should apply to all religions though. All religions, and not just those belonging to countries with whom our governments may be having disputes with.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 17,797
    patb wrote: »
    Take a look at "justice" in Saudi, the way they treat women (stonings), homosexuals, atheists etc. Their interpretation of what is just and fair on these issues is fundamentalist in my book but we turn a blind eye as they keep it within their borders and we sell them billions in arms.
    The idea that a woman can't show her hair (or face) in public (no choice, no option) is fundamentalist in my book but (unlike France) we tip toe around these issues in an attempt to be inclusive.
    With hindsight, we have been too liberal. Too concerned with not offending anyone, too concerned with the rights of minorities compared to the rights of the majority and too concerned with the taboo of racism rather than legitimate questions concerning a belief system that, in many areas, is directly opposed to our own, long held and hard fought liberal heritage.
    There's more than a grain of truth here.
    I'm as liberal as the next guy (except here in America where I guess peeps like Trump consider me a dirty Socialator), but we must remember the immortal word of Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez: BALANCE.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'll agree with Cameron on this: State multiculturalism has indeed failed.
  • Posts: 4,615
    But you cant expect an ideology to turn on and off as people cross international boundaries. Men who treat woman, homosexuals etc as second class citizens are not suddenly going to adopt modern , western values when they cross borders.
    And you cant expect people to give up strongly held religious beliefs. Why should they? in their own versions of reality, they are 100% correct. Its fact.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    So what's the solution then? Kick them out? Like Trump is advocating for the Mexicans (illegals only).

    I'm saying don't encourage multiculturalism. I don't think they encourage it in Germany or the Scandinavian countries. I think this is more a problem for past colonizing countries.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    bondjames wrote: »
    So what's the solution then? Kick them out? Like Trump is advocating for the Mexicans.

    I'm saying don't encourage multiculturalism. I don't think they encourage it in Germany or the Scandinavian countries. I think this is more a problem for past colonizing countries.
    Basically, if you are not prepared to accept the basic cultural concepts of the country you are attempting to move to/live in, you shouldn't freakin' BE there.
    This is not Liberal or Conservative; it's REALITY.


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    So what's the solution then? Kick them out? Like Trump is advocating for the Mexicans.

    I'm saying don't encourage multiculturalism. I don't think they encourage it in Germany or the Scandinavian countries. I think this is more a problem for past colonizing countries.
    Basically, if you are not prepared to accept the basic cultural concepts of the country you are attempting to move to/live in, you shouldn't freakin' BE there.
    This is not Liberal or Conservative; it's REALITY.
    True. I think that's the right approach. Like I said, no multiculturalism. It doesn't work.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    This whole idea of religious/cultural 'freedom' is a bunch of PC crap. The ONLY system that works for everyone is that you treat others the way you yourself would want to be treated, and even THAT doesn't work if you YOURSELF are a psycho of some kind.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Its easy to forget that the Christian faith went through its own barbaric period. It has taken hundreds and hundreds of years for the christian faith to have all of the rough edges worn away. Today, although symbolic, it plays very little role in telling people what to do. It has adapted to survive and become incredibly liberal to fit in with what modern society wants to do and it is still struggling and having to adjust and pull back (gay marriage for example). I could become christian tomorrow and it would have zero impact on my day to day life.
    Conceptually, if you could put a bubble around traditional Muslim countries and let them get on with it, in hundreds of years, they would work things out and become "western". If that sounds like I am saying Islam is backward, yes, that is what I am saying.
    But they are not in a bubble, they are seeking to turn the clock back and apply their own values to our society. To answer your question, I am not sure but the solution starts with honesty and we cant seem to able to agree that religion is at the root of this. Until we can deal with this taboo and manage to separate this from racism, we cant move forward. There are still many many people who interpret criticism of Islam as racist. This is a major issue and we have to deal with this as it is a major barrier.
    Perfect example below:
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    patb wrote: »
    Its easy to forget that the Christian faith went through its own barbaric period.
    The Crusades. Plunder in the name of 'God'. Yep.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,615
    To place the blame at multiculturalism is grossly unfair on those from other cultures who have leaned to live within modern Western culture and have been flexible enough within their own belief systems. Hispanics have not flown airliners into tower blocks, Hindus have not blown up tube trains, Jews don't murder cartoonists and Buddhists don't take AK47s into Parisian rock concerts. There is clearly a pattern here and one religion/culture that has failed to adapt and deal with modern, western liberal values. Blaming multiculturalism is a little cowardly. The evidence is so very very clear and points to one culture/belief system.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I'm not a fan of multiculturalism personally, but I'm not referring to terrorism now. I just think it's inevitable that one from a different 'culture' will 'hold onto that' when coming to a new country. That is human nature. So people will do it even if the government doesn't encourage it.

    However, if one encourages it, then there is even less incentive to integrate and adapt, particularly with first generation immigrants. I'm a big believer that one must integrate and adapt, and so I don't like the concept. I realize there are exceptions, but that's the way I feel. I felt that way when I lived in the UK in the early 90's (not enough integration of first generation immigrants). It sort of encourages 'ghettos' because of this desire to be with others like yourself.

    Regarding the one religion/culture that you suggest is not integrating as well as the others.....you probably have a point. I don't know why that is, but it's a problem.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    My only knowledge of the area at all comes from working along side Pakistani people for a few years, and I have to say their views concerning females was very... ummm... not cool.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Well, its hard to integrate with a black bag on your head. That's not meant to sound sarcastic, its just a fact. When you place a physical barrier between yourself and those who would want to get to know you a little better, you have not started well. |All other cultures recognise the value of communication via facial expression. You can go into deepest Amazon forests and find tribes that smile, grimace, cry etc and apes clearly communicate via facial expression. But no, Islam has to be different. I am sorry if, to some, this sounds un PC, but it's not. Its just fact.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, but surely the 'black bag' (Niqab) does not apply to all muslim women? That is a particular sect mostly associated with Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman where they cover everything but the eyes.

    How does one explain the majority of other muslims not integrating (if that is in fact what you're saying).......those who are not from that sect, and whose women do not cover up entirely?
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