Serious escalation in Syrian conflict: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

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  • Sark wrote: »
    I guess the more pertinent question is: is WWIII days away?

    Nope.

    Indeed. Wars have become much smarter luckily. Whereas 70 years ago there was the last real war as we know it, with two fronts -allied and the nazis- were fighting each other in costly and deadly ground troup-type wars.

    Nowadays this will not happen anymore.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    In situations like this, perhaps a woman's touch is required? Boys with toys.

    Merkel anyone?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Sark wrote: »
    I guess the more pertinent question is: is WWIII days away?

    Nope.

    Not a chance. There's no possibility of our gutless politicians going to war with Russia to save Turkey. The west is decadent and divided and cannot stomach Vlad's reprisals.

    I've already not got a lot of sympathy for the Turks given their fans booing and shouting 'Allah Akbhar' during the minutes silence for Paris at the match the other day and they don't seem to be doing a lot to halt the refugees from entering Greece either so perhaps Putin giving them a slap is what's needed? Personally I consider Putin much more of an ally in the current climate than any Muslim country.

    Yes he's going to make a terrible mess out there and he's only looking out for his own interests but if he wipes out ISIL I can live with that because somebody has to.

    Won't make a jot of difference to the terrorist threat of course because they all live happily in Europe.
    bondjames wrote: »
    In situations like this, perhaps a woman's touch is required? Boys with toys.

    Merkel anyone?

    You're joking now right? Yeah let's put the woman whose 'everybody from Syria is welcome' policy has allowed terrorsists just to stroll into Europe no questions asked. As far as I'm concerned Angela wants to keep her head down (that's not a blow job reference by the way) and not get involved in case someone points out there's Parisian blood on her hands.

    If we want a woman to take charge there's only one who could - it's time Maggie was revived like Austin Powers to come and get a grip.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    In situations like this, perhaps a woman's touch is required? Boys with toys.

    Merkel anyone?

    You're joking now right? Yeah let's put the woman whose 'everybody from Syria is welcome' policy has allowed terrorsists just to stroll into Europe no questions asked. As far as I'm concerned Angela wants to keep her head down (that's not a blow job reference by the way) and not get involved in case someone points out there's Parisian blood on her hands.

    If we want a woman to take charge there's only one who could - it's time Maggie was revived like Austin Powers to come and get a grip.
    Partially joking. Germany (and Merkel) have close economic ties with Russia. She came from East Germany originally after all. Additionally, Germany has a lot of Turk immigrants so there are ties there as well. She could be a mediator if one wants to de-escalate. In fact, she did that with Ukraine, while Russia/US were instigating.

    Yes, I'm partial to someone with the Iron Lady's fortitude, but sadly there is no one to be found like that at the moment, except, perhaps ironically, Putin himself.
  • Sark wrote: »
    I guess the more pertinent question is: is WWIII days away?

    Nope.

    Not a chance. There's no possibility of our gutless politicians going to war with Russia to save Turkey. The west is decadent and divided and cannot stomach Vlad's reprisals.

    ....and how right General Orlov in "Octopussy" is. No matter how mad this rogue Soviet general was ;-).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    There's been an attack in Tunis this afternoon, 15 dead after the explosion of a bus of the Presidential Guard. State of emergency expected to be declared tonight. This is the 3rd time the State of Emergency has been declared in the last 11 days, after France and Mali.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    There's been an attack in Tunis this afternoon, 15 dead after the explosion of a bus of the Presidential Guard. State of emergency expected to be declared tonight. This is the 3rd time the State of Emergency has been declared in the last 11 days, after France and Mali.

    What would you say the upshot of this is?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    There's been an attack in Tunis this afternoon, 15 dead after the explosion of a bus of the Presidential Guard. State of emergency expected to be declared tonight. This is the 3rd time the State of Emergency has been declared in the last 11 days, after France and Mali.

    What would you say the upshot of this is?

    Seems like ISIS wants to put fear in as many countries as possible. The list of countries attacked this year alone is ever-expanding.
  • There's been an attack in Tunis this afternoon, 15 dead after the explosion of a bus of the Presidential Guard. State of emergency expected to be declared tonight. This is the 3rd time the State of Emergency has been declared in the last 11 days, after France and Mali.

    What would you say the upshot of this is?

    Seems like ISIS wants to put fear in as many countries as possible. The list of countries attacked this year alone is ever-expanding.

    Have you ever seen "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"? As of Season 3 a rogue group of terrorists are introduced, due to the ongoing Federation-Cardassian-conflict. They are called The Maquis (also shortly referenced in "Star Trek: Voyager", Season 4). I strongly recommend everyone to watch the best Star Trek series ever made. It's still strikingly topical. And obviously The Maquis can be seen as today's ISIS.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    If reports that the pilots were executed by some c**ts shouting 'Allah Akbhar' then Putin has to demand Turkey are booted from NATO and Obama has to back him.

    Otherwise Putin well within his rights to say 'OK NATO if you want to back your Muslim allies then it's on with all of you.'

    It's about time a line in the sand was drawn as if our alleged allies are committing what is tantamount to a war crime against an ally who is bombing ISIS then we have really lost the plot.

    Who are we backing here Russia or Islam? Time to decide Mr Cameron.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    If reports that the pilots were executed by some c**ts shouting 'Allah Akbhar' then Putin has to demand Turkey are booted from NATO and Obama has to back him.

    Otherwise Putin well within his rights to say 'OK NATO if you want to back your Muslim allies then it's on with all of you.'

    It's about time a line in the sand was drawn as if our alleged allies are committing what is tantamount to a war crime against an ally who is bombing ISIS then we have really lost the plot.

    Who are we backing here Russia or Islam? Time to decide Mr Cameron.

    Very rational points, well put.
  • If reports that the pilots were executed by some c**ts shouting 'Allah Akbhar' then Putin has to demand Turkey are booted from NATO and Obama has to back him.

    Otherwise Putin well within his rights to say 'OK NATO if you want to back your Muslim allies then it's on with all of you.'

    It's about time a line in the sand was drawn as if our alleged allies are committing what is tantamount to a war crime against an ally who is bombing ISIS then we have really lost the plot.

    Who are we backing here Russia or Islam? Time to decide Mr Cameron.

    I think that's very easy. We back democracy and real freedom. And obviously the NATO backs a policy where Russia starts coordinating better, way better. That's not what Russia is doing right now, despite several warnings from Turkey.

    A real anti-ISIS-coalition can only exist if Russia stops blatantly lying about whom they are attacking. At least NATO-members, USA in front, always clearly say who they are going attack. And Russia needs to learn to compromise...and see the delicacy of the situation.

    Although I have to say that Turkey either should not have immediately shot a Russian fighterjet out of their air space. It's a well-known fact that Russian fighter jets have crossed Dutch air space as well. Do we immediately shoot down such an airjet?

    Both Putin and Erdogan need to talk to each other. They both are from the same mold of crazy narcistic hotheads.

    Latest news, from what I've been reading, is that both the NATO/Turkey and Russia are actually more in favor of de-escalation. And that's logical, as this Thursday president Hollande will visit Moscow to promote his plan for a big anti-ISIS-coalition.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    No matter what you think about Russia and Putin, Turkey are bang out of order and need to be castigated by all sides.

    This could just have easily been a yank or British plane (apart from the fact our politicians are too busy dithering to get stick into ISIS).

    Just who did the Turks think they were shooting down anyway? Last time I looked ISIS had a similar air presence to the Pitcairn Islands.

    If it's proven that Turks murdered the Russian pilots on the ground then the president of Turkey has some very tricky questions to ask - namely how many pro ISIS Turks are there? Do we need to be invading them too?

    I would love to see what Elliot Carver was making of all this.


  • I would love to see what Elliot Carver was making of all this.

    He's having fun with his titles. And by the way, would someone please KILL BOND?!?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    From a pure military view point, a single jet has been shot down, who is right or wronged doesn't matter at this point, shit happens in a war zone, WWIII, not a chance. Just a single directive IMO will be issued by Russia to it's pilots "If the Turks engage, fire first, no more detante". Simply put, plus they may eject a few Turkish diplomats from Moscow.
    The media are constantly looking to escalate situations for column inches. Putin does not want to go to war with NATO because he'd lose without the use of Nukes, NATO don't want a conflict with Russia because it will end in Nukes, pragmatism will prevail.
  • Posts: 12,526
    With this now happening, the entire area is like a mega powder keg ready to go off!!!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,119
    Here's a nice article from CNN. Very insightful:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/opinions/ghitis-russia-jet-shot-down/index.html

    Though the current conflict in Syria doesn't seem like a true "World War", it actually already is.

    I think the main reason why this conflict doesn't seem as deadly and as violent as both previous World Wars, World War I & II, is because major powers are fighting wars in a smarter way. Less ground forces, and way more air strikes and especially the use of drones. They turn this conflict much more into 'Cyber Warfare', in which the military can drop bombs from a relatively safe distance, thus saving thousands or even millions of lifes. But it still is a true World War.

    My biggest concern of this new 'World War' is, that ISIS is completely thriving on the different conflicting agendas and alliances of convenience that all those countries involved have. And we already SEE what has happened. Civilians from: France, Russia, Australia, Japan, China, South-Korea, Denmark, Turkey, Nigeria, Lebanon, Iraq.....all dead. By ISIS. I sincerely hope president Hollande can point all noses into one direction before the end of 2015.

    Because all these different and conflicting agenda's in the end make ISIS stronger. And will threaten civilaztion as we know it.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    No matter what you think about Russia and Putin, Turkey are bang out of order and need to be castigated by all sides.

    This could just have easily been a yank or British plane (apart from the fact our politicians are too busy dithering to get stick into ISIS).

    Just who did the Turks think they were shooting down anyway? Last time I looked ISIS had a similar air presence to the Pitcairn Islands.

    If it's proven that Turks murdered the Russian pilots on the ground then the president of Turkey has some very tricky questions to ask - namely how many pro ISIS Turks are there? Do we need to be invading them too?

    I would love to see what Elliot Carver was making of all this.

    How is shooting down a foreign military plane over your territory "out of order"? From initial reports the Russians were warned multiple times. Also Turkey as warned Russia about bombing the Turkmen groups in the Syrian side of the border. The plane crashed in Syria, did it not? So if anyone chanting allah akbar was present at the crash site it isn't
  • Posts: 4,615
    The multiple warnings are useless unless received by the pilot. A little research into radio frequencies and pilot workload in a combat environment will tell you that its not like using a mobile phone. The turks have zero evidence that their warnings were received. The media like to makes things so clear but things get very confused in "the fog of war", the Turks knew that there was no Russian fighter escort, but had good radar track, they could have flown along side the bomber (in the same way that our fighters fly alongside Russian bombers in the North sea) to ensure visual contact and escort the bombers away,
    shooting it down within the context of the situation was a massive overeaction.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Sark wrote: »
    No matter what you think about Russia and Putin, Turkey are bang out of order and need to be castigated by all sides.

    This could just have easily been a yank or British plane (apart from the fact our politicians are too busy dithering to get stick into ISIS).

    Just who did the Turks think they were shooting down anyway? Last time I looked ISIS had a similar air presence to the Pitcairn Islands.

    If it's proven that Turks murdered the Russian pilots on the ground then the president of Turkey has some very tricky questions to ask - namely how many pro ISIS Turks are there? Do we need to be invading them too?

    I would love to see what Elliot Carver was making of all this.

    How is shooting down a foreign military plane over your territory "out of order"? From initial reports the Russians were warned multiple times. Also Turkey as warned Russia about bombing the Turkmen groups in the Syrian side of the border. The plane crashed in Syria, did it not? So if anyone chanting allah akbar was present at the crash site it isn't

    Are you the Turkish Alastair Campbell?

    So the plane was most definitely in Turkish airspace when it was shot at but conveniently it landed in Syria so all the crazies who murdered the pilots are nothing to with Turkey!

    It's extremely poor judgement by the Turks. As @patb says above just patrol the border and escort them away. Shooting down a Russian plane? What's the best result the Turks were hoping for in that situation?

  • Posts: 4,615
    Sorry, just to add, another option is to get "missile lock" on the bomber via a radar guided missile. This radar signal would definately get the attention of the Russian pilot. Plus there would be hard data concerning the time and location of the missile lock. By using a heat seeker, the Turks use a passive weapon that would give no signal/warning to the Russian pilot and far less data. The Turks had several options but they went to the most dramatic. In public, the NATO leaders have little choice but to support Turkey but behind the scenes, they will be furious. A hint was that the USA quickly published data to show that the bomber was in Turkish airspace for around 17 seconds.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Didn't this incident happen near the Turkish/Syrian border? If so, then two things come to mind:

    1. there should be more leeway before shooting a flyover infraction, especially if, as noted in the press, such infraction only lasted for about 30 seconds each time
    2. the Turks probably didn't want to put planes up there to escort the Russian bomber out because of the risk that they themselves could be shot down by the locals on the Syrian side. The Ukraine incident probably is in their mind.
    Shooting down a Russian plane? What's the best result the Turks were hoping for in that situation?
    To stop Russian bombing of the rebels on the other side of the border, who the Turks are supporting apparently. Bad call though, no doubt.

    I think one of the pilots is alive though. That's what I read yesterday somewhere.

    Bottom line: Flying has become more dangerous of late.....commercial and military. Ever since the Malaysian airliner disappeared in March 2014.
  • Posts: 4,615
    If the incursion is so small that an F16 does not have time to get into an escort position (with full radar guidance) then that confirms that it barely skimmed the border.
    Its perfectly possible that its a local cockup by a regional commander and the PM has to be seen to defend the action. Each leader portrays it is a black and white scenario but the real life situation is always more complex
  • http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/26/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/index.html
    "Turkey won't apologize for downing Russian warplane, Erdogan says"

    I am not surprised by Turkey's staunch reply from president Erdogan. In the meanwhile Russia is moving S-400 defense missile systems to the Hmeymim air base near Latakia, on Syria's Mediterranean coast. These missiles have a range of 250 kilometers (155 miles). Be certain that Turkey feels very threatened now. I was hoping that this conflict would be de-escalated a bit. But these recent developments......sadden me, to put it mildly.

    And I think the main reason for this escalation are these two men. Both very narcistic presidents, with an ultra-nationalistic political agenda:
    7P3K3Yv.png?1

  • And for the very same reason, Russia has an exactly similar agenda, though with different goals
    Russia-has-spent-years-allowing-pro-russian-terrorists-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-delivering-weapons-to-them (MH17? Remember?)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    No one is blameless here. No one. This is a playground for large powers, and the residents suffer. Oil and religion. Always gets everyone hot and bothered.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871

    And for the very same reason, Russia has an exactly similar agenda, though with different goals
    Russia-has-spent-years-allowing-pro-russian-terrorists-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-delivering-weapons-to-them (MH17? Remember?)

    http://usuncut.com/politics/congresswoman-introduces-bill-to-stop-funding-syrian-extremists/

  • Posts: 2,341
    It will blow over. this is not 1914 and cooler head prevail nowadays. Putin may talk smack and rattle sabers but keep in mind that Turkey belongs to NATO.

    Russia does not want to lock horns with NATO.

    NATO would clean their chronometers.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The Iraqi PM has a very good and valid point when he says that Turkish planes violate the Syrian and Iraqi airspace every day. The only country that is legally involved in Syria is Russia, according to international law. They were invited there by the legitimate government. Russia wasn t going to bomb Turkey, were they? Only their darlings IS.
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