"Second only to Sean Connery"

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  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote: »
    Just what I was about to say! ;)

    With all due respect @TheWizardOfIce, I think your otherwise normally very reliable judgement is totally off the mark on this one. There's a lot of hype around Craig, but he's a decent actor, not a great one, and as you seem to acknowledge, is not a 'star' in the old school sense of the word.

    I've enjoyed watching him in supporting roles in other films but generally speaking when he's cast in a non-Bond leading role the film flops/underperforms, and he is the reason why. He drains any suspense or tension from the screen in Dragon Tattoo. Perhaps the only film I've seen which he successfully carried outside of Bond is Layer Cake, which is effectively a version of his Bond character.

    Also, it's an easy put down to say Connery "plays himself". By this I assume you mean he effectively portrays the character of a milkman from the working class end of Edinburgh? So he can't do accents?! Who actually cares (the answer has always been 'no one').

    The fact is the man can act, and at his best, he frankly wipes the floor with Craig. Any one who claims otherwise is a victim of Craig hype.

    After the seeing the last two entries, SF and SP, my appreciation of Connery has increased. When they try to copy the Conneryisms it falls flat and hurts painfully. Do not remind me of the terrible scene where Bond meets Q in the art gallery in SP. It is embarrassing and so unfunny.

    Where EON have gone wrong with the last two films, is that they are trying to fit the glove of Connery and Moore over Craig, and it does not work. Let Craig be his own style of Bond like in CR and QOS.

    Connery's style cannot be bettered. Connery does not do it self-consciously. That is the difference. Those early films did it naturally, and with a sophistication. Are people telling me there are no writers in the industry who can invent new ideas of lines for Bond, just like they did in the old films.

    But, my point, how can Craig be equal to Connery if at times he is copying the style?


  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    IMO, Connery and Craig are the 2 actors that nailed the part in their debut outting. However, while Craig won the world over with CR as a whole, Connery won the world over with his first scene, and even more so, his first line ('Bond... James Bond' while lighting his cigarette).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    Where EON have gone wrong with the last two films, is that they are trying to fit the glove of Connery and Moore over Craig, and it does not work. Let Craig be his own style of Bond like in CR and QOS.
    I certainly felt this in parts of SP but not in SF. I thought the humour in SF (bitter sarcasm and cynicism) suited Craig. It actually fits in with the 'wrist slasher' style humour that his his own. His line about toilet flushing in SP is Craig to me. I agree, let Craig be Craig. I thought it was best in CR with Vesper. Just golden moments between the two of them and not a hint of Connery there....just Craig.
    acoppola wrote: »
    Connery's style cannot be bettered. Connery does not do it self-consciously. That is the difference. Those early films did it naturally, and with a sophistication. Are people telling me there are no writers in the industry who can invent new ideas of lines for Bond, just like they did in the old films.
    Agreed. No self consciousness at all, unlike "circle of life". Regarding whether they can't invent new ideas of lines for Bond......apparently not.
    IMO, Connery and Craig are the 2 actors that nailed the part in their debut outting. However, while Craig won the world over with CR as a whole, Connery won the world over with his first scene, and even more so, his first line ('Bond... James Bond' while lighting his cigarette).
    I agree. Craig won with the acting which was magnificent. Connery won with an act (lighting a cigarette) and simply and casually uttering a line.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    Where EON have gone wrong with the last two films, is that they are trying to fit the glove of Connery and Moore over Craig, and it does not work. Let Craig be his own style of Bond like in CR and QOS.
    I certainly felt this in parts of SP but not in SF. I thought the humour in SF (bitter sarcasm and cynicism) suited Craig. It actually fits in with the 'wrist slasher' style humour that his his own. His line about toilet flushing in SP is Craig to me. I agree, let Craig be Craig. I thought it was best in CR with Vesper. Just golden moments between the two of them and not a hint of Connery there....just Craig.
    acoppola wrote: »
    Connery's style cannot be bettered. Connery does not do it self-consciously. That is the difference. Those early films did it naturally, and with a sophistication. Are people telling me there are no writers in the industry who can invent new ideas of lines for Bond, just like they did in the old films.
    Agreed. No self consciousness at all, unlike "circle of life". Regarding whether they can't invent new ideas of lines for Bond......apparently not.
    IMO, Connery and Craig are the 2 actors that nailed the part in their debut outting. However, while Craig won the world over with CR as a whole, Connery won the world over with his first scene, and even more so, his first line ('Bond... James Bond' while lighting his cigarette).
    I agree. Craig won with the acting which was magnificent. Connery won with an act (lighting a cigarette) and simply and casually uttering a line.

    Thank you very much sir!!!

    In fact, the recent two entries have highlighted that what we took for granted as being so easy in the Connery era, is not quite as it seems.

    Goodness me, but, I think the coffin scene in DAF, is a work of comedy genius. That Saint Peter line delivery is priceless. And Roger Moore was splendid with his unique style, because it is a lost art. And I respect Dalton for not copying in any way his predecessors. Although I would give kudos to the Q scene in LTK which is excellent as well as original humour. Dalton plays that fantastic and there is no whiff of copying another's style!

    And of course, Mr Brosnan was gifted with one-liner delivery. I have to give credit to him too. He fits the classic Bond archetype very well!

    I think there is a tendency to give Craig too much credit at the expense of the other actors who hugely contributed to the longevity of the series. Pierce Brosnan did a magnificent job in Goldeneye. I love Dalton, but Brozza did give something new there!

  • Posts: 11,189
    Brosnan's got a few good one liners but he's got some TERRIBLE ones aswell.

    "I'm Mr Kil...Now there's a name to die for". Even his delivery is cheesy and echoes David Brent.

    I remember Leslie Nielsen once said in an interview: don't show the audience that you know what the joke is. Brosnan was often guilty of this, as was Moore occasionally.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @acoppola, I agree. It's critical that the writers try to fit the humour to each actor's unique style and not to a hypothetical 'Bond film template'. Audiences are too wise to that now imho, so it may take some of them out of the experience.

    I do think that there were instances where Dalton also seemed a little off in the one liner dept. because the script was channeling Moore/Connery humour. They were few and far between in TLD thankfully, and by LTK, they had a script that suited his harder edged delivery better....but perhaps it had too little humour (Davi had most of the jokes in that one).

    Willis in Die Hard 1 and 2 is a perfect example of humour that fits the character and the actor beautifully. It's an extension of the man. He is one of the few that did it as effortlessly as Connery/Moore imho.

    No, it's definitely not easy to do properly. When they get it right though.....it's beautiful to behold and uniquely Bond, but it must be tailored.
  • Posts: 11,189
    The best humorous moments from Dalton are the more subtle ones rather than the one liners.

    "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" (throwing back Saunder's earlier line to him).
    "I know a great restaurant in Karachi...we can just make dinner".

    The "salt corrosion" line is pretty good but his "amazing this modern safety glass" line falls a bit flat for me.

    "He met his Waterloo" at the end is crap I think.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    @acoppola, I agree. It's critical that the writers try to fit the humour to each actor's unique style and not to a hypothetical 'Bond film template'. Audiences are too wise to that now imho, so it may take some of them out of the experience.

    I do think that there were instances where Dalton also seemed a little off in the one liner dept. because the script was channeling Moore/Connery humour. They were few and far between in TLD thankfully, and by LTK, they had a script that suited his harder edged delivery better....but perhaps it had too little humour (Davi had most of the jokes in that one).

    Willis in Die Hard 1 and 2 is a perfect example of humour that fits the character and the actor beautifully. It's an extension of the man. He is one of the few that did it as effortlessly as Connery/Moore imho.

    No, it's definitely not easy to do properly. When they get it right though.....it's beautiful to behold and uniquely Bond, but it must be tailored.

    I do agree with your points @bondjames I strongly believe that Dalton would have upped the humour in his third film, which he sadly never got. He mentioned it many times. With an actor like Dalton, you have to tailor scripts accordingly, and not give him hand me down material. Though I love the "Salt Corrosion" delivery in TLD.

    In Cubby's autobiography, it is mentioned that Dalton wanted to be respected purely for his adherence to the Fleming Bond. It was never his intention to be the Connery/Moore template which he gets compared to. However, audiences are wiser now and it is great to see an increase in the respect for Dalton.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @bondjames IMO the humour in Die Hard 3 is the best I've seen in action movies of the last 20 years. Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson were on fire the whole film and their chemistry was pitch perfect.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Ahh... Die Hard. A great Hollywood action classic. Willis gives a masterclass in comic delivery in that film - genius. And I think it owes a lot to the Connery and Moore tradition.

    I agree that this leading man style and ability to deliver those kind of lines effectively is a bit of a lost art.

    While I enjoyed SP and thought most of the humour worked pretty well, it is true that it was mainly pastiche and recycling. It's almost like they'd given up on Craig as a distinct take on Bond. He's sort of become another greatest hits Bond - a better version of Brosnan.

    I'm not sure what I think about it. On the one hand I feel it's a shame they've squandered the opportunity presented by CR and QOS. They could have taken Bond somewhere new and different but instead he's just ended up back where he was before. I enjoyed SP a lot more than SF so may be this is the right thing to have done.

    It would be nice if they'd tailored the film and humour a little more to Craig. There are some good lines in CR and QOS, like when he's asked if he wants his drink shaken and stirred. They did seem to suit him better.

    Some of the best humour in SP was around Q though. His lines and whole persona just seemed to work so much better in SP. Whishaw is the one element of SP that I think was actually almost perfect. He's moved on leaps and bounds since SF. I get all the hype around him now. He really managed to do so much with the scenes he had. Now that's what I call acting.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The best humorous moments from Dalton are the more subtle ones rather than the one liners.

    "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" (throwing back Saunder's earlier line to him).
    "I know a great restaurant in Karachi...we can just make dinner".

    The "salt corrosion" line is pretty good but his "amazing this modern safety glass" line falls a bit flat for me.

    "He met his Waterloo" at the end is crap I think.

    Uuufffff the "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" is spectacular and so suited to Dalton.

    I agree that the Waterloo one is pants, and clearly more suited to Mr Moore.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Brosnan's got a few good one liners but he's got some TERRIBLE ones aswell.

    "I'm Mr Kil...Now there's a name to die for". Even his delivery is cheesy and echoes David Brent.

    I remember Leslie Nielsen once said in an interview: don't show the audience that you know what the joke is. Brosnan was often guilty of this, as was Moore occasionally.

    Goldeneye and parts of TND were great moments. Arrest me, but, I love the "They'll print anything these days!" in TND. I think that was witty and very relevant to the state of mass media. By DAD, they were too over-used and fell flat.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    I think James Cameron also modeled the 'good-guy' version of Schwarznegger in 'Terminator 2' on the Connery/Moore template.
  • Posts: 11,425
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The best humorous moments from Dalton are the more subtle ones rather than the one liners.

    "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" (throwing back Saunder's earlier line to him).
    "I know a great restaurant in Karachi...we can just make dinner".

    The "salt corrosion" line is pretty good but his "amazing this modern safety glass" line falls a bit flat for me.

    "He met his Waterloo" at the end is crap I think.

    Uuufffff the "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" is spectacular and so suited to Dalton.

    I agree that the Waterloo one is pants, and clearly more suited to Mr Moore.

    I was literally just thinking about that whole TLD sequence. I was thinking does Craig have a single scene or line delivery that comes close to matching Connery's intro and I couldn't think of one. And then my mind just sort of thought of Dalton at the start of TLD. I'm not saying it beats Connery, but I think there's a brilliance and seeming effortlessness to his performance in those early scenes that definitely matches anything we've had from Craig.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @bondjames IMO the humour in Die Hard 3 is the best I've seen in action movies of the last 20 years. Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson were on fire the whole film and their chemistry was pitch perfect.
    I agree @DaltonCraig007, they played off each other beautifully. That was one of the first films where I saw Jackson's potential and comic timing. He was perfect casting.

    Die Hard 1 though is still such a beautiful film to watch.....I just realized the other day that Mclaine & Gruber only meet face to face towards the end of the film...it's amazing what tension Willis and Rickman brought to the characterizations while just on a phone talking to each other for most of it. I think I'm going to catch a blu ray viewing of that this Christmas (it's seasonal after all). "Nice Suit. John Philips, London. I have two myself. Rumor has it Arafat buys his there too"
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The best humorous moments from Dalton are the more subtle ones rather than the one liners.

    "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" (throwing back Saunder's earlier line to him).
    "I know a great restaurant in Karachi...we can just make dinner".

    The "salt corrosion" line is pretty good but his "amazing this modern safety glass" line falls a bit flat for me.

    "He met his Waterloo" at the end is crap I think.

    Uuufffff the "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" is spectacular and so suited to Dalton.

    I agree that the Waterloo one is pants, and clearly more suited to Mr Moore.

    I was literally just thinking about that whole TLD sequence. I was thinking does Craig have a single scene or line delivery that comes close to matching Connery's intro and I couldn't think of one. And then my mind just sort of thought of Dalton at the start of TLD. I'm not saying it beats Connery, but I think there's a brilliance and seeming effortlessness to his performance in those early scenes that definitely matches anything we've had from Craig.

    Spot on @Getafix What pisses me off about the franchise, is that the contributions of past actors is less and less acknowledged. Dalton with little preparation time for the role in TLD, did a phenomenal debut performance. And his characterisation has not dated.

    The Craig era at times feels like it wants to pretend the past actors never existed and then, use their style. I think that is not on. When is the last time anyone heard Craig mention his predecessors??? He mainly did at the beginning when his announcement as Bond was a PR disaster.

    At least Dalton would always mention them as would Brosnan in interviews. And I miss that as a fan of the series. I loved how Dalton could talk about Connery or Moore, and really give them credit for what they did.



  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,718
    Another cult classic action movie I can see with the 'Connery/Moore' template is 'Face/Off'. I really thought Travolta and Cage are in full 'Sean/Rog' mode, pure machismo on screen with tons of hilarious one liners. I love, absolutely love GE but Face/Off was a better throwback to the fun of the Rog/Sean movies.
  • Posts: 11,189
    @Getafix. I was saying that the "section 26" line is one of Dalton's more effective lighter lines.
  • Posts: 11,425
    acoppola wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The best humorous moments from Dalton are the more subtle ones rather than the one liners.

    "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" (throwing back Saunder's earlier line to him).
    "I know a great restaurant in Karachi...we can just make dinner".

    The "salt corrosion" line is pretty good but his "amazing this modern safety glass" line falls a bit flat for me.

    "He met his Waterloo" at the end is crap I think.

    Uuufffff the "Sorry old man, section 26 Paragraph 5. Need to know...sure you understand" is spectacular and so suited to Dalton.

    I agree that the Waterloo one is pants, and clearly more suited to Mr Moore.

    I was literally just thinking about that whole TLD sequence. I was thinking does Craig have a single scene or line delivery that comes close to matching Connery's intro and I couldn't think of one. And then my mind just sort of thought of Dalton at the start of TLD. I'm not saying it beats Connery, but I think there's a brilliance and seeming effortlessness to his performance in those early scenes that definitely matches anything we've had from Craig.

    Spot on @Getafix What pisses me off about the franchise, is that the contributions of past actors is less and less acknowledged. Dalton with little preparation time for the role in TLD, did a phenomenal debut performance. And his characterisation has not dated.

    The Craig era at times feels like it wants to pretend the past actors never existed and then, use their style. I think that is not on. When is the last time anyone heard Craig mention his predecessors??? He only did at the beginning when his announcement as Bond was a PR disaster

    At least Dalton would always mention them as would Brosnan in interviews. And I miss that as a fan of the series. I loved how Dalton could talk about Connery or Moore, and really give them credit for what they did.



    Yes I find that odd as well. There's a slight surliness/chippyness about it. I find it particualrly annoying that Craig has never referenced Dalton as far as I'm aware either. I'm not suggesting Craig is copying Dalton - he clearly isn't. I just think it would have been nice if he'd acknowledged that there'd been a previous attempt to do something similar. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about the other actors and their takes. He's clearly a fan of Rog - a little nod in his direction would be nice.

    That's me speaking as a Dalton fan though. Craig has his own way of doing things. He doesn't pander to the media or the fans. Fair enough. Ultimately all I really care about is his performance as Bond, which has always been pretty solid.
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