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In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    With SP I don't know what the general publics opinion is, but I don't think it will be ranked amongst the total duds. Low middle rank probably. I wouldn't be surprised if SP and SF end up hovering around the same territory.
    The general public that I talk to either haven't seen it or found it forgettable. I have yet to hear one positive comment from anyone I know who's seen it. One of my sisters actually turned it off half way because she had to attend to her infant son and didn't go back to finish it. All of these same people that I spoke to loved SF (some were actually raving about it at the time).

    So no, I don't think these two films are going to have the same reputation as time goes on. To some, I actually think SP has made SF look even better. SF is an excellent standalone story (despite idiotic after the fact retrofit). SP can only be enjoyed if one has followed the Craig story in detail (like us obsessed nutters have). Most of the general public don't have such a recollection of all the interconnected mumbo jumbo.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I don't even know why exactly I don't like SPECTRE I mean it ticked all the boxes for sure, maybe it was the lack of story and direction, it was just bond wondering around with no story or real villain
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Love hinx and the train fight and plane chase though
  • MilovyMilovy
    edited March 2017 Posts: 676
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    I don't even know why exactly I don't like SPECTRE I mean it ticked all the boxes for sure, maybe it was the lack of story and direction, it was just bond wondering around with no story or real villain
    I think maybe you're onto something there! ;) Bond spends the whole film wandering around basically creating an assignment for himself out of thin air, not even certain what he's looking for, all while the actual plot (Nine Eyes) plays out between a bunch of bureaucrats. It's not exactly gripping.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,382
    Milovy wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    The Logan example is a little tricky. Firstly, I feel like they tried that in SF and they failed miserably. Bond being old, past his prime and somewhat over the hill is something the movie kept telling us but never really showed. What we actually got was Bond on the job while simultaneously recovering from an injury and even then he was still doing stuff he's been doing in every preceding film. That whole premise of being "washed up" was a joke.
    Yes, the idea that Craig could end with a Bond film similar to Logan doesn't quite work, considering he already played the grizzled, old man Bond in Skyfall.

    I also agree that angle wasn't explored satisfyingly in Skyfall - there are just a handful of references to his old age in the script (e.g. "It's a young man's game," "Old dog, new tricks") and they could have easily been cut. It all works a lot better if Bond is simply old-fashioned and off his game due to injury (physical and personal). The "old man Bond" angle comes out of nowhere and goes nowhere.

    Not to mention that Craig is incredibly fit in SF! I get that Mendes brought "prestige"--in the form of Deakins, Adele, and Bardem--to SF, but increasingly, I'm thinking that that's about it.

    SP suffered from lazy casting, IMHO. Waltz, Bellucci are super-obvious choices. Scott was a scenery-chewing joke. And Seydoux...did they think to do any chemistry tests with her and Craig? The best of the cast were left over from previous Bond films (M, White).

    For Bond 25 please fire the SP casting director.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    Debbie McWilliams has been the casting director for a quarter of a century.

    SPECTRE had a brilliant cast (save Scott). Regardless of how obvious it may be, a brilliant cast doesn't matter if the script they get to work with doesn't maximize their potential.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Milovy wrote: »
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    I don't even know why exactly I don't like SPECTRE I mean it ticked all the boxes for sure, maybe it was the lack of story and direction, it was just bond wondering around with no story or real villain
    I think maybe you're onto something there! ;) Bond spends the whole film wandering around basically creating an assignment for himself out of thin air, not even certain what he's looking for, all while the actual plot (Nine Eyes) plays out between a bunch of bureaucrats. It's not exactly gripping.
    You hit the Nail on the head!

  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I think we need paul haggis because say what you will about CR and qos but those are great stories also despite having all that writers strike bull shit I think quantum has a great plot that adds up and has a purpose and makes sense
  • LegionnaireLegionnaire
    Posts: 142
    Among my small circle of friends, mostly male, but a few women as well and all hard chargers (including the too few in number females) SP gets good marks. Everybody roared with laughter during the closing scenes when Bond shoots down the AS365 Dauphin helicopter with his Walther, a great Bond moment. Most of the guys feel that Lea Seydoux would be great for a one-off, but otherwise a pretty boring date (all the females seem to identify with her, for some unknown reason, must be a “girl” thing or something), but Bellucci gets high marks on all sides. Hinx was a good heavy, (if you’ve ever had to fight a guy like that you’ll know what I mean), and Blofeld was as evil as evil could be, a good world class POS, like C, (the kind of guys who’d seduce your sister, then your mother and then steal the family fortune). Action adventure movies are good entertainment and going all the way back to the first Bond movie Dr. NO, the films have been trashed by someone ( just look at the reviews for each one), yet the story line continues. Personally I’m no fan of the Roger Moore series (I don’t care for his glib one liners that never stop), but I’ll watch if they’re on. On the other hand I’m not much of a critic either, I’m just looking for an escape from reality for a couple of hours.
  • MilovyMilovy
    edited March 2017 Posts: 676
    @JamesBondKenya Haggis did only polishing on CR. From what I recall from the CR DVD commentary, his main contributions were some dialogue (M's apartment and train scene - they are very different in tone from the rest of the dialogue) and the sinking house climax.

    I'm not sure what Haggis' contribution to QoS was, just that the writing on that film was very messy. I know he had the "Bond looks for Vesper's child" idea - which was tossed out. Michael G. Wilson came up with the Bolivian water plot idea. Forster and Craig did rewrites while filming. Not sure what Purvis & Wade did.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    This is how bad SP is, the subject of Bond came up and I mentioned some of the scenes from SP and my friend, with whom I was having the discussion with didnt know what I was talking about because he said he's not sure if he's seen it. I had to remind him that we saw it together with a few of our other friends!
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    doubleoego wrote: »
    This is how bad SP is, the subject of Bond came up and I mentioned some of the scenes from SP and my friend, with whom I was having the discussion with didnt know what I was talking about because he said he's not sure if he's seen it. I had to remind him that we saw it together with a few of our other friends!

    I think this sums up why SP doesn't seem to hit the mark for a lot of people. It's too forgettable.

    It's odd as SP is one of those films that I appreciate less the more I go over it in my head.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    This is how bad SP is, the subject of Bond came up and I mentioned some of the scenes from SP and my friend, with whom I was having the discussion with didnt know what I was talking about because he said he's not sure if he's seen it. I had to remind him that we saw it together with a few of our other friends!

    I think this sums up why SP doesn't seem to hit the mark for a lot of people. It's too forgettable.

    It's odd as SP is one of those films that I appreciate less the more I go over it in my head.

    + 1
    It didn't do anything for the franchise to warrant its existence, it's purpose was to link the films and bring back SPECTRE but it really didn't work and was shamefully bad at trying to do that.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,382
    jake24 wrote: »
    Debbie McWilliams has been the casting director for a quarter of a century.

    SPECTRE had a brilliant cast (save Scott). Regardless of how obvious it may be, a brilliant cast doesn't matter if the script they get to work with doesn't maximize their potential.

    You can't win 'em all.

    SP had lazy casting.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    No, I don't think it will grow in people's estimations.
    Milovy wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya Haggis did only polishing on CR. From what I recall from the CR DVD commentary, his main contributions were some dialogue (M's apartment and train scene - they are very different in tone from the rest of the dialogue) and the sinking house climax.

    I'm not sure what Haggis' contribution to QoS was, just that the writing on that film was very messy. I know he had the "Bond looks for Vesper's child" idea - which was tossed out. Michael G. Wilson came up with the Bolivian water plot idea. Forster and Craig did rewrites while filming. Not sure what Purvis & Wade did.

    Purvis and Wade submitted a treatment, but was tossed aside in favour of Wilson's water idea. Haggis, Foster and Craig wrote the film we have on screen, despite Purvis and Wade's accreditation.

    Something of what Purvis and Wade wrote made it to the screen or they wouldn't have been credited. That's how it works. Writing an early draft that goes completely unused does not get you screen credit.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Paul Haggis please.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    No, I don't think it will grow in people's estimations.
    Milovy wrote: »
    @JamesBondKenya Haggis did only polishing on CR. From what I recall from the CR DVD commentary, his main contributions were some dialogue (M's apartment and train scene - they are very different in tone from the rest of the dialogue) and the sinking house climax.

    I'm not sure what Haggis' contribution to QoS was, just that the writing on that film was very messy. I know he had the "Bond looks for Vesper's child" idea - which was tossed out. Michael G. Wilson came up with the Bolivian water plot idea. Forster and Craig did rewrites while filming. Not sure what Purvis & Wade did.

    Purvis and Wade submitted a treatment, but was tossed aside in favour of Wilson's water idea. Haggis, Foster and Craig wrote the film we have on screen, despite Purvis and Wade's accreditation.

    Something of what Purvis and Wade wrote made it to the screen or they wouldn't have been credited. That's how it works. Writing an early draft that goes completely unused does not get you screen credit.

    Not quite. It's probably a contractual agreement because they were commissioned to submit a treatment so one of the clauses would have been that would get a screen credit.

    Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can speak to this, but I'm pretty sure there are industry regulations that dictate when someone gets a credit, not contracts (though a contract can dictate order or placement, such as when listing the cast).
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »

    Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can speak to this, but I'm pretty sure there are industry regulations that dictate when someone gets a credit, not contracts (though a contract can dictate order or placement, such as when listing the cast).
    Marc Foster wrote:
    'Once I signed on to do it we pretty much developed the script from scratch because I felt that it wasn't the movie I wanted to make and we started with Paul Haggis from scratch. And I said to him, "These are the topics I am interested in, this is what I would like to say, what's important to me. And we developed it from there together. Then Barbara and Michael said they liked where we were going and they liked the script.'

    Which is not to say they didn't still incorporate ideas, writing, or scenes from P&W. Even if MGW came up with the whole Bolivian water idea post P&W, everything up until Haiti could have been from an earlier draft by P&W. We just don't know.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    That still sounds incredibly unusual to me that someone would receive a writing credit for a film that reflects none of their creative input. This topic is very interesting to me though and has inspired me to do some digging into what all went down.

    (Not sure how France's case is related though. Several of his ideas made it into the finished film and he received a "Story By" credit. He believes he should have been given a "Written By" credit and he may well be right.)
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Then who made casino Royale great besides Fleming of coarse, was it mostly Paul haggis and a tiny bit of purvis and wade or the other way around
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,382
    I blame Haggis for CR's greatness.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    edited March 2017 Posts: 6,844
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    That still sounds incredibly unusual to me that someone would receive a writing credit for a film that reflects none of their creative input. This topic is very interesting to me though and has inspired me to do some digging into what all went down.

    (Not sure how France's case is related though. Several of his ideas made it into the finished film and he received a "Story By" credit. He believes he should have been given a "Written By" credit and he may well be right.)

    The Michael France example shows that the producers have final say about accreditation. Perhaps the WGA also have some kind of input. Remember, the writers strike was happening during QOS's development. Foster and Craig were performing minor rewrites based on Haggis' script, which he turned in a day before the strike happened. I imagine that because Foster and Craig aren't writers, and Eon had commissioned Purvis and Wade for QOS, they received a credit.

    France's case isn't particularly unusual though. If a script is changed enough by new writers, the original writer will receive "Story By" credit and the new writers will receive "Written By" credits. Having read parts of France's original screenplay, which ran something like a ridiculous 300 pages long, there is a lot of material that did not make it into GoldenEye, and there are definitely plenty of characters, scenes, and ideas in GoldenEye that weren't in France's script.

    Ultimately the way the credits read onscreen is probably how they should read. I'm guessing France was probably just upset about how much work he put into GoldenEye and how much the filmmakers changed his script. It's understandable, and if I were in his shoes I'd probably have wanted a "Written By" credit as well.

    (Interestingly, some elements of France's original script made their way into other films. Most famously, his bullet train PTS was lifted for the climax of De Palma's Mission: Impossible.)

    Conversely, however, I don't believe I've ever seen a case where somebody who did not write the film received a "Written By" credit.
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    Then who made casino Royale great besides Fleming of coarse, was it mostly Paul haggis and a tiny bit of purvis and wade or the other way around

    You can blame Haggis for CR. He revised Purvis and Wade's script. He is responsible for the shoddy M scene in her apartment and the woeful Bond/Vesper dialogue on the train and the clinic.

    It does sound like Casino Royale is predominantly P&W's with revision work by Paul Haggis and a bit more involvement from Haggis in a few key scenes. I believe I've read that Haggis was instrumental in developing the sinking house sequence in Venice. Could be wrong there.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    So what I have gathered from all of this is for bond 25, we want a Wilson-haggis script?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    @MrKissKissBangBang... Are you a failed screenwriter?? One that EoN kicked to the side? That's how u r coming off. Don't worry. It's a tuff biz. Keep practicing your craft and maybe, maybe, one day, you will be part of a successful script that will be as celebrated as CR was celebrated.
    I know a few good managers and agents. Lemme know and I will arrange!
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    So what I have gathered from all of this is for bond 25, we want a Wilson-haggis script?

    I'd be quite happy with a Wilson-P&W script with touch up work by Haggis.

    Or a Forster-Craig script. That turned out pretty well.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    So what I have gathered from all of this is for bond 25, we want a Wilson-haggis script?

    I'd be quite happy with a Wilson-P&W script with touch up work by Haggis.

    Or a Forster-Craig script. That turned out pretty well.

    Haha +1
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    peter wrote: »
    @MrKissKissBangBang... Are you a failed screenwriter?? One that EoN kicked to the side? That's how u r coming off. Don't worry. It's a tuff biz. Keep practicing your craft and maybe, maybe, one day, you will be part of a successful script that will be as celebrated as CR was celebrated.
    I know a few good managers and agents. Lemme know and I will arrange!

    Lol but he forgot to sign the contract so he didn't get any credit
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    @MrKissKissBangBang, I just referenced the QoS chapter of my copy of Some Kind of Hero (no relation) and discovered that Purvis and Wade came up with the driving with White in the boot PTS and the Sienna chase culminating in the rope battle, as I had suspected was perhaps the case. Their draft also involved not only Mr. White, but Vesper's boyfriend, Yusef. From there, things unfold very differently, but their writing did in fact make it into the finished film.

    (I really will have to crack into this book from the beginning at some point. Seems like there's a lot of great material in here.)
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    MrKissKissBangBang wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @MrKissKissBangBang... Are you a failed screenwriter?? One that EoN kicked to the side? That's how u r coming off. Don't worry. It's a tuff biz. Keep practicing your craft and maybe, maybe, one day, you will be part of a successful script that will be as celebrated as CR was celebrated.
    I know a few good managers and agents. Lemme know and I will arrange!

    You can draw whatever conclusions you see fit. Says more about you than anything else.

    But perhaps I'm coming off as a failed screenwriter to you because you're projecting your own misfortunes onto other members. How did Dead Mary do at the US box office, peter? How's your crusade going to write the next Bond flick?

    I understand you'd take my stance against CR personally - it is your favourite film, after all, and maybe I'm coming off too harshly. And since I'm pointing out the flaws in your cherished film, it would hurt. Especially if you're using it as gospel for your own screenplays.

    Maybe spend less time on here, putting down other members, and work on your next script. Might get a wider release, then. Might even be better than CR.





    P u t t I n g d o w n. O t h e r. M e m b e r s
    Sounds eeringly familiar
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    @MrKissKissBangBang, I just referenced the QoS chapter of my copy of Some Kind of Hero (no relation) and discovered that Purvis and Wade came up with the driving with White in the boot PTS and the Sienna chase culminating in the rope battle, as I had suspected was perhaps the case. Their draft also involved not only Mr. White, but Vesper's boyfriend, Yusef. From there, things unfold very differently, but their writing did in fact make it into the finished film.

    (I really will have to crack into this book from the beginning at some point. Seems like there's a lot of great material in here.)
    Thanks for that bit of trivia I do know something else too, Paul haggis only had maybe a week or so to work on the script before the writers strike
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