In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • Posts: 4,325
    everyone says qos is just a mimic of bourne, while thats true, qos takes a shit on every bourne film by far. The action is 30 times better, and the story is just as good as a bourne story if not better because of originality. Some of the action in qos is unparalleled in modern cinema even though it has fast editing and quick cuts which a lot of people understandably don't like. I agree as time goes on it will be reaccessed by many.

    Rubbish.
  • Posts: 7,431
    Not sure I'd go that far. I do think there were unfair parallels with Bourne, mainly because they hired Dan Bradley on second unit direction, and he worked on the Bourne films. I think the action in QoS is well constructed, the car chase, the scaffolding fight, the fiery climax. i'd like to see Bradley hired again, I think he is better than Alexander Witt who was on action duties for Craigs other movies!
  • Posts: 4,325
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Not sure I'd go that far. I do think there were unfair parallels with Bourne, mainly because they hired Dan Bradley on second unit direction, and he worked on the Bourne films. I think the action in QoS is well constructed, the car chase, the scaffolding fight, the fiery climax. i'd like to see Bradley hired again, I think he is better than Alexander Witt who was on action duties for Craigs other movies!

    The shot of Bond flying into the window is identical to Bourne.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Not sure I'd go that far. I do think there were unfair parallels with Bourne, mainly because they hired Dan Bradley on second unit direction, and he worked on the Bourne films. I think the action in QoS is well constructed, the car chase, the scaffolding fight, the fiery climax. i'd like to see Bradley hired again, I think he is better than Alexander Witt who was on action duties for Craigs other movies!
    I quite liked the construction of the action sequences in QoS, but I still think the editing was nonsensical for the most part.

    It worked better in the Bourne gritty and almost documentary style haphazard environment, but it didn't fit properly in the glamorous Bondian landscape. A more restrained, less frenzied and wide angle approach would have suited the film's palette better imho.
  • Posts: 11,189
    RC7 wrote: »
    The pacing in QoS is way off to me, the fact it doesn't really breathe is why, ironically, I find it drags. It doesn't have enough light and shade.

    My issue with QOS is more that it seems to have problems fitting some pretty heavy subjects into too short a running time and around several gratuitous action scenes.

    We get a taste of a lot of things (Quantum's influence over the government, Ms uncertainty over Bond, Camile's backstory, the people of Bolivia suffering and Bond's quest to find out the truth regarding Vesper) but the film struggles to give each of these proper attention.
  • RC7RC7
    edited March 2017 Posts: 10,512
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    The pacing in QoS is way off to me, the fact it doesn't really breathe is why, ironically, I find it drags. It doesn't have enough light and shade.

    My issue with QOS is more that it seems to have problems fitting some pretty heavy subjects into too short a running time and around several gratuitous action scenes.

    We get a taste of a lot of things (Quantum's influence over the government, Ms uncertainty over Bond, Camile's backstory, the people of Bolivia suffering and Bond's quest to find out the truth regarding Vesper) but the film struggles to give each of these proper attention.

    I agree. If there was ticking time bomb sensibility to the plot I could understand the brevity of it, but the only reason it speeds along is because Forster 'just decided' it would. It seems like counter-intuitive thing to do.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    The pacing in QoS is way off to me, the fact it doesn't really breathe is why, ironically, I find it drags. It doesn't have enough light and shade.

    My issue with QOS is more that it seems to have problems fitting some pretty heavy subjects into too short a running time and around several gratuitous action scenes.

    We get a taste of a lot of things (Quantum's influence over the government, Ms uncertainty over Bond, Camile's backstory, the people of Bolivia suffering and Bond's quest to find out the truth regarding Vesper) but the film struggles to give each of these proper attention.
    I've always felt that the film nicely depicted a state of confusion & disorientation. It's almost like Forster was trying to mirror the intensity & single mindedness of Bond as he tries to find personal 'solace'. The plot was almost incidental to this quest. I've often said that even the disjointed title song (which almost sounds in certain places like a mangled version of YKMN played backwards) was intentionally conceived to add to this unsettling feeling.

    This was all done before (and far better in my view) in the benchmark The Bourne Supremacy, which was the film which introduced us to shaky cam. That movie was also primarily about finding peace for the loss of a loved one and coming to terms with one's profession.

    I honestly don't have a problem with the way Quantum was handled in QoS. They really should have expanded on it better in SP and tried to continue that ominous feeling of 'people everywhere' with 'fingers in many pies' which the earlier film nicely set up in a more realistic & mature way. I'm afraid they botched it, at least imho.
  • Posts: 11,189
    He obviously wanted to make it in a different style to CR, which is fair enough. But there's too many plot points in the mix. I think the first sensible option would have been to cut his "elements" idea and scrap a couple of the weaker action scenes to devote more time to the story.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    He obviously wanted to make it in a different style to CR, which is fair enough. But there's too many plot points in the mix. I think the first sensible option would have been to cut his "elements" idea and scrap a couple of the weaker action scenes to devote more time to the story.
    On that I certainly agree. It would have helped trim the budget as well, which was ridiculous for a film of that length. Ironic also that the film was released in the midst of the financial crisis with that budget.
  • Posts: 3,336
    It has a certain amount of faults, but i still find it enjoyable.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    My problem with QoS is just and only the editing - plus maybe the title track that is not the best. But everything else I enjoy a lot and even more with every time I see it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Agree. I wish some of the films where shorter, because then i would of had more choices if i don't have too much time free. And a little cut would also improve a few.

    Only if they make the right cuts.
  • Posts: 3,336
    Agree. I wish some of the films where shorter, because then i would of had more choices if i don't have too much time free. And a little cut would also improve a few.

    Only if they make the right cuts.

    Of course, it's a hard thing to do though.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Editing is an underrated creative process.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Editing is an underrated creative process.

    Yeah editing can determine the whole story of a film, how the film looks, how it is perceived
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Of recent memory Suicide Squad is an excellent case study of the importance and significance of editing.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Our view of SP may be determined by what happens with Bond 25.
    RC7 wrote: »
    The pacing in QoS is way off to me, the fact it doesn't really breathe is why, ironically, I find it drags. It doesn't have enough light and shade.

    QoS is indeed jarring. It doesn't bother me too much except in one scene: the plane. Here, Bond and Camille are staring to connect. There is a nice moment, where Bond jokes about M thinking she's his mother. It seems to be leading somewhere, in which these characters may find a deeper connection, about the cases they are working the lives/lies they are living. And then: BAM, here comes a jet fighter attack.
    :-/
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    TripAces wrote: »
    Our view of SP may be determined by what happens with Bond 25.
    RC7 wrote: »
    The pacing in QoS is way off to me, the fact it doesn't really breathe is why, ironically, I find it drags. It doesn't have enough light and shade.

    QoS is indeed jarring. It doesn't bother me too much except in one scene: the plane. Here, Bond and Camille are staring to connect. There is a nice moment, where Bond jokes about M thinking she's his mother. It seems to be leading somewhere, in which these characters may find a deeper connection, about the cases they are working the lives/lies they are living. And then: BAM, here comes a jet fighter attack.
    :-/

    That whole scene is trite filler. I mean, I know we've had quite a bit of that over the years, but it's just boring and linear. If you're getting us from A to B at least make it enjoyable, even if it's bat shit. I truly believe it's only in there to satisfy Forster's 'elements' guff. An exposition scene that ended with them discovering the reservoir would have been more welcome imo.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 3,327
    There are quite a few gripes I have with SPECTRE now in hindsight after watching it again recently, and I think a big problem is Mendes vision for Bond.

    To start with, I'm not keen on some of the dialogue, which is very un-Fleming -
    “That all sounds marvellous,”......“That all sounds lovely.” This doesn't sound like Bond to me. It's not the kind of things he would say, particularly in the books. Very unimaginative. It doesn't bode well for Bond 25 if P&W are responsible for lines like these.

    The film now feels like it drags in parts, the same way SF does now for me too. CR is of similar length, yet it flows at a decent pace. Campbell is far better at directing Bond than Mendes.

    The car chase now feels more like an episode of Top Gear, showcasing a race between the shiny new Jaguar v the shiny new Aston Martin. This doesn't have a gritty realistic feel to it at all. The QoS Aston car chase is far superior, and Bourne do car chases much better too.

    The ending feels tacked on, and as much as I like seeing London in a Bond film, too much of a good thing can leave you wanting less, and I definitely feel like this by the end of SP. Mendes has exhausted the London locations to death, making it look more like they had ran out of travelling budget to film abroad.

    The personal touch. Bond's past. I really don't want to know or care about Bond's past, and I certainly don't want to see something that has nothing to do with Fleming - Bond and Blofeld being brothers. This is borderline unforgivable.

    The Aston Martin DB5, and other homages to the past. Drop them. There is no need for them. Again, Mendes has flogged this to death.

    Bond doesn't bleed anymore. In SF and SP, where is the sight of Bond bloodied and dirty, like we saw in CR (and to a lesser extent QoS)? Bond suffers traumatic torture in SP and is right as rain again 2 seconds later. The realism angle that Campbell so boldly started in CR is now completely vanished by the time Bond is freed from his Colonel Sun dentist chair in SP.

    The one redeeming moment for me now in SP is the train fight scene with Hinx, which pretty much harks back to the harder edged Bond of CR and QoS. Unfortunately these scenes are few and far between in the Mendes films, preferring artistic light and pretentious angles over sheer blood and brutality.





  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited March 2017 Posts: 11,139
    There are quite a few gripes I have with SPECTRE now in hindsight after watching it again recently, and I think a big problem is Mendes vision for Bond.

    To start with, I'm not keen on some of the dialogue, which is very un-Fleming -
    “That all sounds marvellous,”......“That all sounds lovely.” This doesn't sound like Bond to me. It's not the kind of things he would say, particularly in the books. Very unimaginative. It doesn't bode well for Bond 25 if P&W are responsible for lines like these.

    The film now feels like it drags in parts, the same way SF does now for me too. CR is of similar length, yet it flows at a decent pace. Campbell is far better at directing Bond than Mendes.

    The car chase now feels more like an episode of Top Gear, showcasing a race between the shiny new Jaguar v the shiny new Aston Martin. This doesn't have a gritty realistic feel to it at all. The QoS Aston car chase is far superior, and Bourne do car chases much better too.

    The ending feels tacked on, and as much as I like seeing London in a Bond film, too much of a good thing can leave you wanting less, and I definitely feel like this by the end of SP. Mendes has exhausted the London locations to death, making it look more like they had ran out of travelling budget to film abroad.

    The personal touch. Bond's past. I really don't want to know or care about Bond's past, and I certainly don't want to see something that has nothing to do with Fleming - Bond and Blofeld being brothers. This is borderline unforgivable.

    The Aston Martin DB5, and other homages to the past. Drop them. There is no need for them. Again, Mendes has flogged this to death.

    Bond doesn't bleed anymore. In SF and SP, where is the sight of Bond bloodied and dirty, like we saw in CR (and to a lesser extent QoS)? Bond suffers traumatic torture in SP and is right as rain again 2 seconds later. The realism angle that Campbell so boldly started in CR is now completely vanished by the time Bond is freed from his Colonel Sun dentist chair in SP.

    The one redeeming moment for me now in SP is the train fight scene with Hinx, which pretty much harks back to the harder edged Bond of CR and QoS. Unfortunately these scenes are few and far between in the Mendes films, preferring artistic light and pretentious angles over sheer blood and brutality.

    Well said. The dialogue you mentioned goes back to emphasising points I've made about Mendes' vision for Bond being artificial. "That's all sounds lovely" etc just comes off as someone trying to sound like Bond but failing spectacularly. Its so cringe. Meanwhile EoN in all likelihood will somehow end up getting Mendes back to direct again.

    It's high time they bring back the fundamental enjoyability factor to these films. I watched TB last night and I got more enjoyment from Connery pausing to pick off a grape and eating it before exiting the room at Shrublands.
  • Posts: 7,431
    I like that line. For me it was Bond putting Denbigh down, all his fancy ideas are no replacement for the 'OO' section! And Bond saying, "No, i think I'll call you 'C', is Bond really putting this upstart in his place!
    Lines like "For England, Alec!", now thats cringeworthy dialogue!
  • Posts: 11,189
    A line from a Craig film I've never liked was from Skyfall when both Moneypenny and Kincade, in completely different circumstances, say "sometimes the old ways are the best". If they had met each other previously I wouldn't have as much of an issue but as it is it just seems a terribly forced attempt at nostalga.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I like that line. For me it was Bond putting Denbigh down, all his fancy ideas are no replacement for the 'OO' section! And Bond saying, "No, i think I'll call you 'C', is Bond really putting this upstart in his place!
    Lines like "For England, Alec!", now thats cringeworthy dialogue!
    I take it you've never read the novels then, because this is not how Bond speaks.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    My problem with QoS is just and only the editing - plus maybe the title track that is not the best. But everything else I enjoy a lot and even more with every time I see it.

    QoS is a decent Bond film. But it's disappointing in the wake of the near perfect CR.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    A line from a Craig film I've never liked was from Skyfall when both Moneypenny and Kincade, in completely different circumstances, say "sometimes the old ways are the best". If they had met each other previously I wouldn't have as much of an issue but as it is it just seems a terribly forced attempt at nostalga.
    All that was missing is Brozza's infamous "huh?!" as the coincidence is recognized!
  • Posts: 7,431
    On the contrary, jetsetwilly. Have read all the novels. And the films have always been different in tone/dialogue to the novels!
  • Posts: 4,044
    I don't think they are aiming for cinematic Bond to sound like Fleming.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Why can't Bond be cinematic AND closer to Fleming? They did that pretty well in CR.
  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    edited March 2017 Posts: 257
    I smell nit-picking....

    "It all sounds marvelous/lovely" is chump change compared to "Pump her for information," getting "the trust of it," how "Christmas only comes once a year" ... Or, my favorite: "Revenge is not hard to fathom for a man who believes in nothing." What?? If he believes in nothing, wouldn't revenge be hard for him to fathom??

    Would Fleming's Bond have even said "keeping the British end up" - or, worse, be known for keeping his "tip up"?

    They're finally taking this stuff seriously again and suddenly everyone is a Fleming purist. You must be joking.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Just get someone to polish off P&W's tripe, like Haggis apparently did in CR. It shouldn't be too difficult to do once a draft script is in place.

    I'll agree that the 'marvelous/lovely' was awful and seemed like something a novice trying to emulate Bond would say. I won't comment on the genius of the Brosnan years.
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