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In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    The way it's been done in the Mendes films is perfunctory and devoid of suspense or tension. Bond walks up, gets captured, turns the tables, escapes. It's like a parody of Bond films of old.
    Indeed. The most notable parody was the damsel in distress sequence at the end. When I first saw the shot of Madeline tied up like that in the chair I almost cracked up in the theatre. It was like I was reading a childhood superhero comic. Lazy doesn't even begin to describe the nonsense they dished up in this sorry excuse for a Bond film. That it came out at the end of a bumper year when every competitor (and there were many in 2015) was pushing the envelope is even more insulting to us long time fans.
  • MilovyMilovy
    Posts: 676
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Sure, but as someone else pointed out, he was captured, he didn't just walk into the villains lair like he was untouchable.

    @Thunderfinger I guess so. Check out the images comparing pre- and post-VFX at 0:58 and 2:16

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Wouldn t a cgi explosion be cheaper? And safer? And more friendly to the environment?
  • MilovyMilovy
    Posts: 676
    But it wouldn't break a world record that nobody cares about!
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    @bondjames Surely the damsel in distress is a common trope in such genre stories. Fleming was found of it himself. Cliché yes. Naive certainly. But parodic? That is merely playing the genre.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    For some reason Newman's drone seems less annoying to me when watching this clip than when heard in the film. Perhaps because it's not paired with the London finale.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Milovy, I don't view Bond as cocky there. He's playing the only hand he has left, and goes into hell to get the job done. Sean's Bond was largely the same way: he went to the island but seemed to have no game plan at all for how to actually get to Dr. No. He played his hand the way it was dealt, and when he had nothing left to bet, he got taken in. Once captured, he had to play from the new deck and go forward.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The way it's been done in the Mendes films is perfunctory and devoid of suspense or tension. Bond walks up, gets captured, turns the tables, escapes. It's like a parody of Bond films of old.
    Indeed. The most notable parody was the damsel in distress sequence at the end. When I first saw the shot of Madeline tied up like that in the chair I almost cracked up in the theatre. It was like I was reading a childhood superhero comic. Lazy doesn't even begin to describe the nonsense they dished up in this sorry excuse for a Bond film. That it came out at the end of a bumper year when every competitor (and there were many in 2015) was pushing the envelope is even more insulting to us long time fans.

    It reminded me of Vesper's situation in CR, to be frank.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Nothing wrong with strolling into a villain's base. Stupid? Possibly. Bad ass? Definitely.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    And Bond is often bold instead of wise.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And Bond is often bold instead of wise.

    Exactly.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Bond risks his life again and again. He trusts his luck and his skills enough to do so.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I didn't have a problem with his overconfidence really. That's the least of my problems with that crater section. My issue rests with everything else about it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    If I had a makeshift bomb strapped to my wrist that I could whip out at any time, I think I could afford to be a little arrogant too. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @bondjames Surely the damsel in distress is a common trope in such genre stories. Fleming was found of it himself. Cliché yes. Naive certainly. But parodic? That is merely playing the genre.
    @Ludovico, I agree. As I've said many times before about this film, it's about the execution. When I am confronted with a series of sequences piled on top of one another (starting with the Blofeld reveal) in succession with little or no weight, narrative heft or plausible (imho) character significance attached to them, then things like this become more noticeable to me.

    Having said that, the shot of Madeline with the rope all around her and a ticking bomb was just way too 'comic book' for my liking. If they'd shown Blofeld (or someone else) taking her into the building, tying her up and telling her what was going to happen it would have helped matters slightly.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    Don't know for me it reminded me of old pulp magazine covers and I didn't mind.

    Back on topic: I think SP will be more appreciated overall than now. If not for itself, then because of the Craig era as a whole.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know for me it reminded me of old pulp magazine covers and I didn't mind.
    Precisely.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Back on topic: I think SP will be more appreciated overall than now. If not for itself, then because of the Craig era as a whole.
    I will definitely appreciate it more if Craig leaves the role now. Then there will be a nostalgia aspect to it for me (like with DAF/AVTAK/DAD etc.). I don't think it will go up much in my ranking, but I also don't think it will decline further. Additionally, I can always still ignore the retcon when watching his earlier films, as I do now.

    If he comes back with a continuation story (same characters) however, then I will more likely than not push this film further down in my rankings, because I will then reluctantly have to incorporate it into an ongoing narrative. Additionally, my view of the Craig era will decline further.

    If he comes back with a standalone (like SF was prior to SP) then my view of it will likely stay the same.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I found the ending very reminiscent of CR's use of Vesper in Venice. In both films Bond thinks he's done away with his big villain and much of the work has been dusted up, but quickly it's revealed that things aren't over. In CR it's the call to the banker, and in SP it's when Bond and his team get hit with the SPECTRE vehicle. In each film it's then revealed through a race against time to get a woman that the villain is either not dead (SP) or another greater threat is around (White in CR). Of course these moments are ended with Bond running around madly in one space that is crumbling to pieces or is on its way (the sinking Venice house in CR, the rigged MI6 in SP) while the woman he's after is facing death itself as time winds down. Thankfully in SP he manages to do better than the last time, as Madeleine actually wants to be saved while Vesper did not.

    A happy ending for the poor bastard, well deserved.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    @OBrady your comparison to Dr. No doesn't add up. Bond doesn't want to get captured, but he, or rather Honey, is detected and since Dr. No is expecting him to go and take a look, they coma after him/them. Then there's the dragon, of which he rightfully assumes it isn't a real dragon, which he intents to fight, but it's Quarrel's death that gives him no choice but to give up. That is completely different from just walking in to get caught.

    Same goes for the conversation. Bond riles Dr. No up so he can steal items from the table. He knows that the Dr. will kill him anyway and uses the time given to get as much info and weapons as he can (table knife, Dr. No sees this).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    @OBrady your comparison to Dr. No doesn't add up. Bond doesn't want to get captured, but he, or rather Honey, is detected and since Dr. No is expecting him to go and take a look, they coma after him/them. Then there's the dragon, of which he rightfully assumes it isn't a real dragon, which he intents to fight, but it's Quarrel's death that gives him no choice but to give up. That is completely different from just walking in to get caught.

    Same goes for the conversation. Bond riles Dr. No up so he can steal items from the table. He knows that the Dr. will kill him anyway and uses the time given to get as much info and weapons as he can (table knife, Dr. No sees this).

    @CommanderRoss, as I stated, in both films Bond reaches a point of no return where he has to get at the villain from the inside. In DN he simply has nothing left to fight back with, and in SP he only has a location and has to get Blofeld to play ball with him, as they'd never meet on his terms alone. The circumstances and stakes are different, as they are different films. But there is a certain carryover.

    I don't see Bond's actions at the dinner table in DN as being a distraction so he can get weapons. He certainly wants to get a knife in case he needed it after he was taken from the table (likely to kill his guards and run to get Honey and stop No as he starts his operation), but I think his anger just comes from the condemnation he holds for Dr. No and what he has done. The point still stands that, as in SP, Bond makes it clear that he'll get the bastard dead to rights somehow.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    The last bit I agree upon (and admittedly the riling-up as destraction is more in the book then it is obvious in the film) but the main thing is I think the intention makes all the difference: in Dr. No Bond doesn't want to get caught, defends himself, and hence when captured has to get out. But it's not the setting of his choosing. Whereas in SP Bond doesn't even try any other scenario. No, he even says to Madelaine 'it may take a while'. That's not the Bond I know, whom never accepts his fate or the fact that his fate is in someone else's hands. So without any hint of a plan he lets himself be captured. Even bored by Blofeld's attempt of impressing them with the meteorite.

    tbh I think it's the only film where Bond just doesn't make any effort as well. That makes a huge, huge difference. And all for the Rolls to make it's appearance? Well, that's just not worth it.

  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    The last bit I agree upon (and admittedly the riling-up as destraction is more in the book then it is obvious in the film) but the main thing is I think the intention makes all the difference: in Dr. No Bond doesn't want to get caught, defends himself, and hence when captured has to get out. But it's not the setting of his choosing. Whereas in SP Bond doesn't even try any other scenario. No, he even says to Madelaine 'it may take a while'. That's not the Bond I know, whom never accepts his fate or the fact that his fate is in someone else's hands. So without any hint of a plan he lets himself be captured. Even bored by Blofeld's attempt of impressing them with the meteorite.

    tbh I think it's the only film where Bond just doesn't make any effort as well. That makes a huge, huge difference. And all for the Rolls to make it's appearance? Well, that's just not worth it.

    Apart from GF .

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    Well even there he doesn't want to get caught. But he was just playing around with a dame in the bushes too much....
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    The last bit I agree upon (and admittedly the riling-up as destraction is more in the book then it is obvious in the film) but the main thing is I think the intention makes all the difference: in Dr. No Bond doesn't want to get caught, defends himself, and hence when captured has to get out. But it's not the setting of his choosing. Whereas in SP Bond doesn't even try any other scenario. No, he even says to Madelaine 'it may take a while'. That's not the Bond I know, whom never accepts his fate or the fact that his fate is in someone else's hands. So without any hint of a plan he lets himself be captured. Even bored by Blofeld's attempt of impressing them with the meteorite.

    tbh I think it's the only film where Bond just doesn't make any effort as well. That makes a huge, huge difference. And all for the Rolls to make it's appearance? Well, that's just not worth it.

    I don't think it's a fair description to call Bond's move in SP a walk into capture. He starts out as essentially an invited guest, treated to a room and talk with Blofeld. I don't think it's Bond just accepting things as they are, he just needed to use the only chance he saw to get Blofeld. Blofeld wasn't going to just walk into the open and wave at him to come play. He was backed up in his HQ and wouldn't move, as he's not an idiot. Bond had to go into his den, the only way it could've happened. He had to take a calculated risk and hope that he could get out of it, as in his handling of Silva on his island in the last film. He had a goal, but was working with an unpredictable man who he couldn't always prepare for. But it was the only chance he had, with Severine offering a last second help and White only leaving him the location and the only chance he had to get at Blofeld as soon as possible. Bond knew Nine Eyes was imminent, so, despite any reluctance, he had to do it. He couldn't afford to wait around for a better scenario with the clock ticking down. He had to bait himself, knowing Blofeld wouldn't pass up the chance to have both he and Madeleine as guests. They both endure his attempts to rile them, but Bond is able to use his secret weapon (the watch) in the end to mount his escape, thinking Blofeld is toasted.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I know people on here say we shouldn't analyse the plot too much. That's what I was told when I pointed out that SF was riddled with plot holes.

    But seriously, can't EON find someone who can come up with just something moderately sea worthy?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    I know people on here say we shouldn't analyse the plot too much. That's what I was told when I pointed out that SF was riddled with plot holes.

    But seriously, can't EON find someone who can come up with just something moderately sea worthy?

    The trouble with a lot of movies, and particularly SP, the ship leaves port while they're still building it. Logan absolutely f***** them in this regard, more than people realise.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with strolling into a villain's base. Stupid? Possibly. Bad ass? Definitely.

    Here here.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote: »
    I know people on here say we shouldn't analyse the plot too much. That's what I was told when I pointed out that SF was riddled with plot holes.

    But seriously, can't EON find someone who can come up with just something moderately sea worthy?

    They're Bond films, even the best of the best are bonkers. The only film that I think never enters into, "What the hell?" territory is FRWL.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    MR is pretty realistic..................................not.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    barryt007 wrote: »
    MR is pretty realistic..................................not.

    It's also awesome.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    Awesome in a way that CR was great for getting away from.
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