In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,817
    I'm pretty sure public view is that SP was 'alright'. Might be different depending on where you live. Better than QoS, not on the level of CR or SF. It will not be remembered as a classic in the same vein as either of those two films (SF's classic status is starting to diminish already).
  • Posts: 1,596
    Box office doesn't have a lot to do with a movie's longevity. As @Birdleson mentioned, box office really has more to do with the prior film (usually).

    The mentions of how MR and DAD were very successful is a great argument as well. I never heard my non-Bond friends talking about SP. None of them did. There was absolutely zero buzz. With SF I overheard snippets, so non-Bond friends tweeting about it, so on and so forth.

    Box office has very little to do with longevity.

    I'm not saying I am right or that the public is right, but in my opinion SP will go down as minor Craig. I think it's rightfully so, but that's irrelevant - this is just a prediction, not based on any bias or what I "want." Just looking at the facts of the situation as well as my observations on social media and out and about talking to co-workers/students/ etc.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Regardless of box office (which basically can be attributed to SKYFALL), the general public never absorbed SPECTRE. Non-Bond fans were constantly telling me how much they loved SF, I'm honestly just not getting any of that with this one.

    Yeah I think the general public responded well to Skyfall being a bit different - my friends did and have responded to Spectre a bit disinterestedly because it's just like the other Bonds.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Box office doesn't have a lot to do with a movie's longevity. As @Birdleson mentioned, box office really has more to do with the prior film (usually).

    The mentions of how MR and DAD were very successful is a great argument as well. I never heard my non-Bond friends talking about SP. None of them did. There was absolutely zero buzz. With SF I overheard snippets, so non-Bond friends tweeting about it, so on and so forth.

    Box office has very little to do with longevity.

    I'm not saying I am right or that the public is right, but in my opinion SP will go down as minor Craig. I think it's rightfully so, but that's irrelevant - this is just a prediction, not based on any bias or what I "want." Just looking at the facts of the situation as well as my observations on social media and out and about talking to co-workers/students/ etc.

    There was still a 'buzz' among my friends and work coleagues but not like Skyfall. It felt like every man and his dog went to see Skyfall.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I'm now talking about the films from the viewpoint of the average guy in the street, not Bond fans.

    As the years pass the most famous Bonds tend to be the ones with those iconic moments. Not necessarily the best, but moments that make everyone think of Bond, not just fans.

    Goldfinger - because of the car, Odd Job's hat, the laser etc
    You Only Live Twice - the volcano, Little Nellie, Blofeld's head
    Live And Let Die - the crocs, the voodoo
    TSWLM - Jaws mainly

    And until Craig, no others.

    Casino Royale - the trunks
    Skyfall - because everyone went to see it. And this generation needs to grow old and die before we all forget about it.

    We the fans can sit and write loads of iconic moments from films that the public have now forgotten about like LTK and TND, but the public remember iconic moments.

    Spectre will be forgotten in time, just as Thunderball, the most successful film in the history of the franchise for many decades is also forgotten.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2016 Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??

    Yes, rewatching SP, Quantum was mentioned about as much as it needed to be with the already pressing run time. We saw Greene and White, and Bond name drops the organization, as does MP and Q.

    I'm counting on Bond 25 to continue to give us a greater picture of SPECTRE's power if Dan does continue on. I want a flat out battle between the best of MI6 and the organization, Bond's boys vs. Blofeld's drone agents. Imagine a finale with the 00s vs. SPECTRE agents in the style of TSWLM?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??
    I said SF.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??
    I said SF.
    I blame @chrisisall for this screw up. *puts hands up innocently*
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??
    I said SF.
    Ummm... there was a smudge if chocolate on my screen that closed the F to make it appear as a P.....
    :\">

    OKAY, I FLUBBED UP, I ADMIT IT! X_X
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    No harm done. I mix them up all the time (the F & P). I was in a movie theatre so was only able to quickly respond briefly earlier..
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Here's what I think so far... as far as linking them all together with SPECTRE- I think it was a mistake general audience-wise, but as a crazy Bond fan I loved it. Absolute stand-alones should be the way to go for Bond though, in terms of the common movie-going public. They don't remember LeChiffre, Greene, White or even Silva by now. They see it once in the theatre, rent it once more maybe, and that's it. People who like Bond a lot, and severe cases like us probably only account for like 10% of the total peeps buying tickets to a Bond movie.
    So I believe that in time, SPECTRE might be a little more appreciated, but not much overall. A few who only kinda liked it might put it a little higher on a third or fourth viewing; a few who loved it might bring it down a bit once the newness wears off, but it will all even out in the end-
    a mid to upper mid level entry.
    In my top ten to stay, however.
    :D
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 4,325
    I absolutely loved Spectre in the cinema. Seen it for second time on Blu Ray and it does seem to have diminished somewhat. I think the biggest flaw really actually on this viewing is knowing where the tension is. The plot really is Bond going after Spectre/Oberhauser - the Nine Eyes stuff feels more like a subplot. Maybe they should have kept it simpler either go full on personal motivation, or drop the personal angle and have the Nine Eyes threat be THE threat. The odd thing as well is that watching Spectre doesn't make me want to watch it again, but does make me want to watch all the other Bond movies again. Must be to do with the homages etc.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    bondjames wrote: »
    No harm done. I mix them up all the time (the F & P). I was in a movie theatre so was only able to quickly respond briefly earlier..

    Spyfall sounds also great..Maybe even better than Skyfall
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,092
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??

    I'm find with the callbacks. I thought it worked well.
  • The_Reaper wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Conversely, they made no mention of Quantum in SF, although they could have continued that story or at least alluded to it. QoS was a polarizing entry, and they knew it.
    Huh? Blofeld mentioned Greene, we saw his face on a computer screen, and White was a character in QOS...
    :-??

    I'm find with the callbacks. I thought it worked well.

    I agree. One of the things I liked about the picture.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @tanaka123, I was more eager to watch the other Bonds over watching SP again the last time I saw it as well. Not because I found it to be a drag, but because it's so hyper connected to the other Craig films, I wanted to return to CR, QoS and SF to see if the retconning made sense. I'm still bugged by how some of the connections to the past were made, but where EON succeeded was in keeping Quantum Quantum, and not making it seem like SPECTRE this entire time.

    My enjoyment of CR and QoS won't change because Quantum wasn't retconned to be a junior version of SPECTRE, but more a guise or separate wing, just another tentacle the organization would use to smokescreen itself. It's structured like the Cosa Nostra of history is/was, with a lot of underlings belong the head of the organization to conceal those with the highest power and curb any litigious action against them.

    SF's plot has new meaning for me as well, though I don't know if Mendes always had the idea to connect Craig's films to SPECTRE when he was making it. It now makes more sense how Silva was able to have so many connections and access to military grade hardware, now that his allegiance to the organization is proven. In addition, because Blofeld is a manipulator/controller, it's easy to see how he was able to use Silva's rage at M's betrayal to his advantage, advancing his own interests. When Silva blows up the MI6 main office where M is stationed, it connects to Blofeld's efforts in SP to get the 00 program eliminated. In addition, he knew that letting Silva run rampant in London to get at M would only increase the public's scrutiny of her job performance and the effectiveness of the 00 section, in addition to the already captured and dying agents directly related to the drive being taken from out of MI6's hands that further damaged her reputation.

    After watching SP and seeing Blofeld's motivations, the MI6 explosion now seems like both his warning of future devastation for the 00 section and also a successful attack that led to the death of many 00 agents. This again connects to his mission alongside that of C in SP to retire the 00 department, and what better way than to kill a good number of them in one fell swoop? Their big mistake, however, was not waiting for Bond to be there at the time of the attack, the dumbos. B-)

    In conclusion, as far as the history of retconning in film goes, what we've got in the Bond series enriches the past films far more than it degrades or muddies them, in my view.

    Thoughts on all this, gents?
  • Posts: 1,092
    @tanaka123, I was more eager to watch the other Bonds over watching SP again the last time I saw it as well. Not because I found it to be a drag, but because it's so hyper connected to the other Craig films, I wanted to return to CR, QoS and SF to see if the retconning made sense. I'm still bugged by how some of the connections to the past were made, but where EON succeeded was in keeping Quantum Quantum, and not making it seem like SPECTRE this entire time.

    My enjoyment of CR and QoS won't change because Quantum wasn't retconned to be a junior version of SPECTRE, but more a guise or separate wing, just another tentacle the organization would use to smokescreen itself. It's structured like the Cosa Nostra of history is/was, with a lot of underlings belong the head of the organization to conceal those with the highest power and curb any litigious action against them.

    SF's plot has new meaning for me as well, though I don't know if Mendes always had the idea to connect Craig's films to SPECTRE when he was making it. It now makes more sense how Silva was able to have so many connections and access to military grade hardware, now that his allegiance to the organization is proven. In addition, because Blofeld is a manipulator/controller, it's easy to see how he was able to use Silva's rage at M's betrayal to his advantage, advancing his own interests. When Silva blows up the MI6 main office where M is stationed, it connects to Blofeld's efforts in SP to get the 00 program eliminated. In addition, he knew that letting Silva run rampant in London to get at M would only increase the public's scrutiny of her job performance and the effectiveness of the 00 section, in addition to the already captured and dying agents directly related to the drive being taken from out of MI6's hands that further damaged her reputation.

    After watching SP and seeing Blofeld's motivations, the MI6 explosion now seems like both his warning of future devastation for the 00 section and also a successful attack that led to the death of many 00 agents. This again connects to his mission alongside that of C in SP to retire the 00 department, and what better way than to kill a good number of them in one fell swoop? Their big mistake, however, was not waiting for Bond to be there at the time of the attack, the dumbos. B-)

    In conclusion, as far as the history of retconning in film goes, what we've got in the Bond series enriches the past films far more than it degrades or muddies them, in my view.

    Thoughts on all this, gents?

    Fantastic examination. ;;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    @tanaka123, I was more eager to watch the other Bonds over watching SP again the last time I saw it as well. Not because I found it to be a drag, but because it's so hyper connected to the other Craig films, I wanted to return to CR, QoS and SF to see if the retconning made sense. I'm still bugged by how some of the connections to the past were made, but where EON succeeded was in keeping Quantum Quantum, and not making it seem like SPECTRE this entire time.

    My enjoyment of CR and QoS won't change because Quantum wasn't retconned to be a junior version of SPECTRE, but more a guise or separate wing, just another tentacle the organization would use to smokescreen itself. It's structured like the Cosa Nostra of history is/was, with a lot of underlings belong the head of the organization to conceal those with the highest power and curb any litigious action against them.

    SF's plot has new meaning for me as well, though I don't know if Mendes always had the idea to connect Craig's films to SPECTRE when he was making it. It now makes more sense how Silva was able to have so many connections and access to military grade hardware, now that his allegiance to the organization is proven. In addition, because Blofeld is a manipulator/controller, it's easy to see how he was able to use Silva's rage at M's betrayal to his advantage, advancing his own interests. When Silva blows up the MI6 main office where M is stationed, it connects to Blofeld's efforts in SP to get the 00 program eliminated. In addition, he knew that letting Silva run rampant in London to get at M would only increase the public's scrutiny of her job performance and the effectiveness of the 00 section, in addition to the already captured and dying agents directly related to the drive being taken from out of MI6's hands that further damaged her reputation.

    After watching SP and seeing Blofeld's motivations, the MI6 explosion now seems like both his warning of future devastation for the 00 section and also a successful attack that led to the death of many 00 agents. This again connects to his mission alongside that of C in SP to retire the 00 department, and what better way than to kill a good number of them in one fell swoop? Their big mistake, however, was not waiting for Bond to be there at the time of the attack, the dumbos. B-)

    In conclusion, as far as the history of retconning in film goes, what we've got in the Bond series enriches the past films far more than it degrades or muddies them, in my view.

    Thoughts on all this, gents?

    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7_____ ^:)^
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    total and utter agreement ^:)^

    but...
    Skyfall still is a boring dreary drag to watch
    :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    total and utter agreement ^:)^

    but...
    Skyfall still is a boring dreary drag to watch
    :))

    There IS that... :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I think you will find that those who enjoyed SP very much will agree with your finely written post. Those who found it less appealing for whatever reason, probably won't.

    I have thought about my own position on this. We all knew before SP opened that the retcon was in effect. After all, it was suggested in the trailers, and I even used the 'author of pain' quote in my profile comment for a long time (no more as you can see....now I reference SF). So I realized it wasn't the retcon itself that I wasn't happy with. It was the manner in which it was executed, which I just don't personally buy for one second.

    What do I buy? I buy that White works for Blofeld. That QUANTUM is a tentacle of SPECTRE. That bit works for me. We knew Greene and White weren't the top dogs.

    What doesn't work for me for whatever reason, is that Blofeld had anything to do with Silva. I personally preferred the simple revenge plot of SF as originally experienced. Yes, there were issues in that film with Silva's clairvoyance and his access to intelligence, resources, weaponry etc., but I just don't buy the after the fact suggestion that Blofeld was responsible behind the scenes. It rings hollow to me. That's probably due to execution in SP, but perhaps not. Perhaps the nature of Silva's revenge on its own is far more compelling (given the impact SF had for me). I don't know.
    ----

    I recently rewatched QoS and SF for the first time post-SP. I was worried about how I would feel about these films now. Thankfully, my enjoyment of neither film was spoiled. In fact, I enjoyed them more this time around. Why? Well because I just ignored the whole retcon thing in my mind and watched them the way I always did (even with QoS).

    I have yet to see CR again post-SP, but I suspect I will just automatically ignore the retcon here as well, in order to preserve my appreciation for that fine film.
    ----

    So ultimately, from my perspective, it's just a matter of how they executed the whole thing. I didn't like Blofeld rubbing in about 'beloved M' and 'big one Vesper'. To me that actually diminished the importance of those deeply wounding events in Bond's life, and did not enhance it - gave it a sort of "Dr. Evil" tinge, perhaps unintentionally. Bond's casual approach to it (except for "I came here to kill you") didn't help either.
    ----

    Having thought more about this, what I would have preferred is if Blofeld didn't comment directly on Vesper/M, and didn't do the stupid hanging photos nonsense. Rather, I woud have preferred that they showed Bond himself quietly (and seethingly) coming to the realization of the grand importance of Blofeld's impact on him (through M, Mathis, Vesper, Fields etc.), perhaps at L'Americaine while Madeline slept (via flashbacks).

    He internalizes it (and we see it via Craig's ability to show anger and pain so well) and then he finally either puts a bullet in Blofeld at the end.....or wrestles with it more before finally letting him go.

    The way they ended up doing it had no real emotional impact for me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @tanaka123, I was more eager to watch the other Bonds over watching SP again the last time I saw it as well. Not because I found it to be a drag, but because it's so hyper connected to the other Craig films, I wanted to return to CR, QoS and SF to see if the retconning made sense. I'm still bugged by how some of the connections to the past were made, but where EON succeeded was in keeping Quantum Quantum, and not making it seem like SPECTRE this entire time.

    My enjoyment of CR and QoS won't change because Quantum wasn't retconned to be a junior version of SPECTRE, but more a guise or separate wing, just another tentacle the organization would use to smokescreen itself. It's structured like the Cosa Nostra of history is/was, with a lot of underlings belong the head of the organization to conceal those with the highest power and curb any litigious action against them.

    SF's plot has new meaning for me as well, though I don't know if Mendes always had the idea to connect Craig's films to SPECTRE when he was making it. It now makes more sense how Silva was able to have so many connections and access to military grade hardware, now that his allegiance to the organization is proven. In addition, because Blofeld is a manipulator/controller, it's easy to see how he was able to use Silva's rage at M's betrayal to his advantage, advancing his own interests. When Silva blows up the MI6 main office where M is stationed, it connects to Blofeld's efforts in SP to get the 00 program eliminated. In addition, he knew that letting Silva run rampant in London to get at M would only increase the public's scrutiny of her job performance and the effectiveness of the 00 section, in addition to the already captured and dying agents directly related to the drive being taken from out of MI6's hands that further damaged her reputation.

    After watching SP and seeing Blofeld's motivations, the MI6 explosion now seems like both his warning of future devastation for the 00 section and also a successful attack that led to the death of many 00 agents. This again connects to his mission alongside that of C in SP to retire the 00 department, and what better way than to kill a good number of them in one fell swoop? Their big mistake, however, was not waiting for Bond to be there at the time of the attack, the dumbos. B-)

    In conclusion, as far as the history of retconning in film goes, what we've got in the Bond series enriches the past films far more than it degrades or muddies them, in my view.

    Thoughts on all this, gents?

    You certainly go some way to filling in some of the gaping holes but I would take issue with your assertion that Blofeld/SPECTRE's objective is to close down the 00 'program' (the actual term is '00 Section' but I'm quoting the awful term used in the script - another indication of people not knowing what they are doing).

    Their objective is to unify all the intelligence of the 9 countries into one resource that they would have access to. The 00 'program' is made redundant by a reliance on surveillance brought through by C but it's not their objective.

    The trouble with all this why are we sitting here months after the film scratching our heads and desperately trying to make it all make sense?

    If your audience has so many unresolvable questions months after coming out of the cinema then isn't it an indication your script isn't up to scratch?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    The trouble with all this why are we sitting here months after the film scratching our heads and desperately trying to make it all make sense?
    I'm not desperate.
    Why, are you?
    :))
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The trouble with all this why are we sitting here months after the film scratching our heads and desperately trying to make it all make sense?
    I'm not desperate.
    Why, are you?
    :))

    Hilarious he can't make sense of the simple and crystal clear plot of SP but praises Skyfall, the mother of all plot holes to the sky.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited March 2016 Posts: 4,399
    QOS got the same lukewarm reception when it came out, but it seems to be finding it's audience and getting a more favorable turn nowadays... and as many people are aware, OHMSS wasn't greeted the best during it's debut either, and the fallout from it could've derailed the franchise - but now it's widely regarded as one of the best in the series...

    but we are also 13 years removed from DAD, and while a few people on these boards have turned more favorable to it - it's still widely regarded as a steaming pile of crap - even by the masses..

    only time will tell - it'd be interesting to revisit this discussion in 10 years and see if feelings have changed.

    much like QOS, i personally don't believe it's as bad as a lot of people on here make it out to be... i know quite of few people on here don't like it for their own very valid reasons.. but the overreaction to it, as if the world had suddenly came to and end was bit over dramatic.... it might not have been the most sound Bond film - but a lot of them aren't - a lot of them you can steer an aircraft carrier through holes in the villain's scheme - or the film's plot... but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable.. the only difference is, we haven't grown up with SP - it's brand new... and like anything brand new, it's going to fall under a lot more scrutiny than something that's been around for a while and that we have all grown accustom to.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    QoS wasn't 'Luke warm', it was ice cold. Just go back and rewatch Mark Kermode's review. People hated that film, especially as a follow up to CR. QoS still features in many fans' bottom five lists. Only the fringe haters would put SP that low.
  • Posts: 832
    I think sp was far better recieved than qos. I also really enjoyed watching spectre on blu ray- i thought it was decent only in theatures.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    QoS wasn't 'Luke warm', it was ice cold. Just go back and rewatch Mark Kermode's review. People hated that film, especially as a follow up to CR. QoS still features in many fans' bottom five lists. Only the fringe haters would put SP that low.

    I'm also of the opinion that those who "hate" QoS the most are those who watched it in 2008 and never went back. I was one of the haters early on, but when I actually gave it a chance and blocked out the culture of negativity it had attached to it, to the point that hating it was the "cool" thing to do, I saw just how great it was when evaluated on its own terms.

    I think there's a lot of people out there, Bond fans included, who haven't give it that chance.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    I think there's a lot of people out there, Bond fans included, who haven't give it that chance.
    What about Birdelson who's given the movie 17 chances and still rates it dead last-???
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