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Comments
The mentions of how MR and DAD were very successful is a great argument as well. I never heard my non-Bond friends talking about SP. None of them did. There was absolutely zero buzz. With SF I overheard snippets, so non-Bond friends tweeting about it, so on and so forth.
Box office has very little to do with longevity.
I'm not saying I am right or that the public is right, but in my opinion SP will go down as minor Craig. I think it's rightfully so, but that's irrelevant - this is just a prediction, not based on any bias or what I "want." Just looking at the facts of the situation as well as my observations on social media and out and about talking to co-workers/students/ etc.
Yeah I think the general public responded well to Skyfall being a bit different - my friends did and have responded to Spectre a bit disinterestedly because it's just like the other Bonds.
There was still a 'buzz' among my friends and work coleagues but not like Skyfall. It felt like every man and his dog went to see Skyfall.
As the years pass the most famous Bonds tend to be the ones with those iconic moments. Not necessarily the best, but moments that make everyone think of Bond, not just fans.
Goldfinger - because of the car, Odd Job's hat, the laser etc
You Only Live Twice - the volcano, Little Nellie, Blofeld's head
Live And Let Die - the crocs, the voodoo
TSWLM - Jaws mainly
And until Craig, no others.
Casino Royale - the trunks
Skyfall - because everyone went to see it. And this generation needs to grow old and die before we all forget about it.
We the fans can sit and write loads of iconic moments from films that the public have now forgotten about like LTK and TND, but the public remember iconic moments.
Spectre will be forgotten in time, just as Thunderball, the most successful film in the history of the franchise for many decades is also forgotten.
:-??
Yes, rewatching SP, Quantum was mentioned about as much as it needed to be with the already pressing run time. We saw Greene and White, and Bond name drops the organization, as does MP and Q.
I'm counting on Bond 25 to continue to give us a greater picture of SPECTRE's power if Dan does continue on. I want a flat out battle between the best of MI6 and the organization, Bond's boys vs. Blofeld's drone agents. Imagine a finale with the 00s vs. SPECTRE agents in the style of TSWLM?
:\">
OKAY, I FLUBBED UP, I ADMIT IT! X_X
So I believe that in time, SPECTRE might be a little more appreciated, but not much overall. A few who only kinda liked it might put it a little higher on a third or fourth viewing; a few who loved it might bring it down a bit once the newness wears off, but it will all even out in the end-
a mid to upper mid level entry.
In my top ten to stay, however.
:D
Spyfall sounds also great..Maybe even better than Skyfall
I'm find with the callbacks. I thought it worked well.
I agree. One of the things I liked about the picture.
My enjoyment of CR and QoS won't change because Quantum wasn't retconned to be a junior version of SPECTRE, but more a guise or separate wing, just another tentacle the organization would use to smokescreen itself. It's structured like the Cosa Nostra of history is/was, with a lot of underlings belong the head of the organization to conceal those with the highest power and curb any litigious action against them.
SF's plot has new meaning for me as well, though I don't know if Mendes always had the idea to connect Craig's films to SPECTRE when he was making it. It now makes more sense how Silva was able to have so many connections and access to military grade hardware, now that his allegiance to the organization is proven. In addition, because Blofeld is a manipulator/controller, it's easy to see how he was able to use Silva's rage at M's betrayal to his advantage, advancing his own interests. When Silva blows up the MI6 main office where M is stationed, it connects to Blofeld's efforts in SP to get the 00 program eliminated. In addition, he knew that letting Silva run rampant in London to get at M would only increase the public's scrutiny of her job performance and the effectiveness of the 00 section, in addition to the already captured and dying agents directly related to the drive being taken from out of MI6's hands that further damaged her reputation.
After watching SP and seeing Blofeld's motivations, the MI6 explosion now seems like both his warning of future devastation for the 00 section and also a successful attack that led to the death of many 00 agents. This again connects to his mission alongside that of C in SP to retire the 00 department, and what better way than to kill a good number of them in one fell swoop? Their big mistake, however, was not waiting for Bond to be there at the time of the attack, the dumbos. B-)
In conclusion, as far as the history of retconning in film goes, what we've got in the Bond series enriches the past films far more than it degrades or muddies them, in my view.
Thoughts on all this, gents?
Fantastic examination. ;;)
@0BradyM0Bondfanatic7_____ ^:)^
total and utter agreement ^:)^
but...
There IS that... :))
I have thought about my own position on this. We all knew before SP opened that the retcon was in effect. After all, it was suggested in the trailers, and I even used the 'author of pain' quote in my profile comment for a long time (no more as you can see....now I reference SF). So I realized it wasn't the retcon itself that I wasn't happy with. It was the manner in which it was executed, which I just don't personally buy for one second.
What do I buy? I buy that White works for Blofeld. That QUANTUM is a tentacle of SPECTRE. That bit works for me. We knew Greene and White weren't the top dogs.
What doesn't work for me for whatever reason, is that Blofeld had anything to do with Silva. I personally preferred the simple revenge plot of SF as originally experienced. Yes, there were issues in that film with Silva's clairvoyance and his access to intelligence, resources, weaponry etc., but I just don't buy the after the fact suggestion that Blofeld was responsible behind the scenes. It rings hollow to me. That's probably due to execution in SP, but perhaps not. Perhaps the nature of Silva's revenge on its own is far more compelling (given the impact SF had for me). I don't know.
----
I recently rewatched QoS and SF for the first time post-SP. I was worried about how I would feel about these films now. Thankfully, my enjoyment of neither film was spoiled. In fact, I enjoyed them more this time around. Why? Well because I just ignored the whole retcon thing in my mind and watched them the way I always did (even with QoS).
I have yet to see CR again post-SP, but I suspect I will just automatically ignore the retcon here as well, in order to preserve my appreciation for that fine film.
----
So ultimately, from my perspective, it's just a matter of how they executed the whole thing. I didn't like Blofeld rubbing in about 'beloved M' and 'big one Vesper'. To me that actually diminished the importance of those deeply wounding events in Bond's life, and did not enhance it - gave it a sort of "Dr. Evil" tinge, perhaps unintentionally. Bond's casual approach to it (except for "I came here to kill you") didn't help either.
----
Having thought more about this, what I would have preferred is if Blofeld didn't comment directly on Vesper/M, and didn't do the stupid hanging photos nonsense. Rather, I woud have preferred that they showed Bond himself quietly (and seethingly) coming to the realization of the grand importance of Blofeld's impact on him (through M, Mathis, Vesper, Fields etc.), perhaps at L'Americaine while Madeline slept (via flashbacks).
He internalizes it (and we see it via Craig's ability to show anger and pain so well) and then he finally either puts a bullet in Blofeld at the end.....or wrestles with it more before finally letting him go.
The way they ended up doing it had no real emotional impact for me.
You certainly go some way to filling in some of the gaping holes but I would take issue with your assertion that Blofeld/SPECTRE's objective is to close down the 00 'program' (the actual term is '00 Section' but I'm quoting the awful term used in the script - another indication of people not knowing what they are doing).
Their objective is to unify all the intelligence of the 9 countries into one resource that they would have access to. The 00 'program' is made redundant by a reliance on surveillance brought through by C but it's not their objective.
The trouble with all this why are we sitting here months after the film scratching our heads and desperately trying to make it all make sense?
If your audience has so many unresolvable questions months after coming out of the cinema then isn't it an indication your script isn't up to scratch?
Why, are you?
:))
Hilarious he can't make sense of the simple and crystal clear plot of SP but praises Skyfall, the mother of all plot holes to the sky.
but we are also 13 years removed from DAD, and while a few people on these boards have turned more favorable to it - it's still widely regarded as a steaming pile of crap - even by the masses..
only time will tell - it'd be interesting to revisit this discussion in 10 years and see if feelings have changed.
much like QOS, i personally don't believe it's as bad as a lot of people on here make it out to be... i know quite of few people on here don't like it for their own very valid reasons.. but the overreaction to it, as if the world had suddenly came to and end was bit over dramatic.... it might not have been the most sound Bond film - but a lot of them aren't - a lot of them you can steer an aircraft carrier through holes in the villain's scheme - or the film's plot... but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable.. the only difference is, we haven't grown up with SP - it's brand new... and like anything brand new, it's going to fall under a lot more scrutiny than something that's been around for a while and that we have all grown accustom to.
I'm also of the opinion that those who "hate" QoS the most are those who watched it in 2008 and never went back. I was one of the haters early on, but when I actually gave it a chance and blocked out the culture of negativity it had attached to it, to the point that hating it was the "cool" thing to do, I saw just how great it was when evaluated on its own terms.
I think there's a lot of people out there, Bond fans included, who haven't give it that chance.