What next for Madeleine Swann

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Creasy47, there wouldn't have to be a new Bond girl. Madeleine would go into hiding, and that would be it. In my vision Bunt would then enter the frame to help Blofeld kill Bond, and she would be the main female figure of the film, just as a villain so that the void is filled.

    No sense in getting a Bond girl type role casted for when it's not needed. That's a box that just doesn't need ticking at this point in my view, as the story wouldn't necessitate it.
  • Posts: 1,680
    Swann wont be in the next one. No bond girl has ever appeared on screen again since 1963.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    No thanks. I admire the originality of the idea, as it has yet to happen in the series before, but it's something I already know I wouldn't enjoy.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Swann wont be in the next one. No bond girl has ever appeared on screen again since 1963.

    Shouldn't be too hard a thing to ask of the Craig era, which has successfully bucked Bond trends before. If any era can do it, it's this one.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I just think that a return of Swann is going to hit a roadblock, no matter which way you take it: eventually, she will either have to die (gonna run them close to the Vesper storyline, sans the traitor angle, especially if Bond is "driven by revenge" over her death), or she and Bond will have to break up, and the latter option is not something I need any amount of running time dedicated to. If she returns for 'Bond 25' and comes out unscathed, then we're back where SP left us.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2017 Posts: 6,304
    A breakup could work. What would give it credence (unlike other Bond girls) is that Swann saw what her father's work did to her family, so if Bond can't leave his job, then she has to leave Bond. They actually got this ending right in SP when she left him. Had Blofeld kidnapped Moneypenny instead of Swann, the film would still have worked just fine, maybe better...an echo of "Are you ready to get to work?" from SF.

    If Swann went into hiding in Bond 25, he wouldn't be able to romance other women (unless they reboot, say, a Bunt as an Elektra-like villain who Bond sleeps with out of duty). A Bond film doesn't quite work without a sex scene every so often--think "The Angels of Death" (which, while Bond-like, undermined the one-of-a-kind nature of the Tracy romance a bit).

    Still, if Craig is back, Bond and Blofeld need to have a final showdown in Bond 25, and Blofeld is going to have to tick Bond off enough so that he kills him (preferably choking him near a geyser). That means that somebody significant (Swann? Moneypenny? Q? M again?) is probably going to be a sacrificial lamb. I could see Fiennes asking to be killed off to pursue his other (quite good) work as an actor and director. Bond 25: M Is For Murdered.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Another M death shouldn't be on the cards. I think there's a way to motivate Bond to do what he must without someone having to die over it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Another M death shouldn't be on the cards. I think there's a way to motivate Bond to do what he must without someone having to die over it.

    True, but Blofeld is his archenemy. It has to be something big.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It would've been interesting if Judi's M was kept alive only to be killed by SPECTRE in an attempt to get to Bond. I don't know how I'd feel about that, though.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    It's either she dies, they split up, or they live happily ever after. I'm not happy with any of those, so just leave it as it is. This way, people can make up their own minds about what happened next. Some things are better left to the imagination.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    If Dan returns, there's zero chance that nothing will be done with Madeleine. They're not just going to pretend she didn't exist, especially after how SP ended and all it sets up. At minimum she will get a mention and a dialogue devoted to her character and what has happened to her since the end of SP, and maximum, the sky is the limit.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 2017 Posts: 8,400
    Well, I don't think this is a case like CR, when people got really invested in Craig, Vesper and the mysterious Mr White, and desperately needed some kind of payoff. People appreciated SPECTRE more because it reintroduced so many familiar elements that had been absent for such a long time. The gadget car, the henchman, the evil super villain posing a global threat etc. It was just nice to see that iconic Bondian stuff again. I don't believe that Madeline captivated audiences in the same way that Vesper managed to, or that her relationship with Bond was anywhere near as convincing. As much as the film wants her to be, she just isn't in the same league as Tracy and Vesper. This is to say nothing against Lea, or her performance. To me, she is the most attractive Bond girl ever.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    This is the era of inter-connectivity, where anything goes and things are continued. People wanted to forget QoS, apparently, yet we got Greene in SP as a SPECTRE connection and got a return of Mr. White, two big features of a lambasted Bond movie that came back to the forefront. If QoS gets its due service, this plot will too.

    Madeleine isn't intended or written as a Vesper or Tracy; those are soul mates and are very different. I believe Bond is using what she represents, a way out, at the end of the film, and is seeing where things go. He's not head over heels in love, but it's enough for him that this girl understands what it's like to know a man like him, as her father was the same way working in the same dirty business. They meet at a crossroads in that way, and have an understanding. But Madeleine is a big part of Bond's development, and the sole reason he is leaving MI6, as she first suggested it to him. We will see the end of that story with some pay-off, whether they go their separate ways, stay together or doing anything in between. She's not just going to be forgotten and brushed off without a word, as she has an importance beyond just being a character. Symbolically she relates heavily to Bond's journey.

    People call SP bad scripting (don't agree), but that kind of decision (to forget her) would really be ridiculous, as it cheapens how Bond has developed by never addressing it. "Hey, you know that woman Bond is leaving his old life with to retire? How about we don't mention her in the next one and just kind of pretend all that stuff between them didn't happen." Thankfully modern filmmaking strives far more to give stories a closure and sense, where things aren't randomly left hanging in the wind. Everything about the Craig films has been added onto the rest, and the four films each carry into each other. Nothing is left behind and no loose ends are left untied. Bond 25 with Dan will be no different.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    gumbolt wrote:
    If Bond 25 is to be a continuation of SP with the same principal cast, what should happen to Swann? This is the first time that there seems a dramatic requirement for a "Bond girl" to return in the next film and this is actually quite significant in the history of the series.
    It seems a bit obvious and predictable that she gets murdered by Blofeld/Spectre and this brings Bond back to action for revenge. I would rather she was revealed as a villain, perhaps faking her death. Perhaps she could be a secret Spectre agent who wants to replace Blofeld and who used Bond to kill Blofeld in SP and again by staging her murder in Bond 25 to provoke him to kill ESB? That would mean some retcon of Spectre re her motivations but it could be done.
    Any thoughts?

    Next step. She dies.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Death. Within the first three seconds of the PTS. Hell, work it into the damned gun barrel.

    +1.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 2017 Posts: 8,400
    But nothing is left hanging the way it is, it is simply left for us to interpret for ourselves. Just because something is open ended, doesn't mean that there has to be a sequel that explains what happened. Rather than picking from one of three rather mundane destinations for the relationship to reach, I think simply leaving it unexplained is probably the smartest move they could have made. You may choose to believe that Bond is using Madeline as a means to make a clean break, but the fact remains that she is written virtually the same way as both Vesper and Tracy. Bond resigns from MI6 in order to pursue a life with Vesper, and Madeline comes from a family of criminals, rather like Tracy does. Its not hard to see the parallels. He quits, or at least its implied that he does, so he can spend his life with Madeline. Again, one can question that if one wishes, but it's plain to see that is what the film leads us to believe.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Can't argue with any of that.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited January 2017 Posts: 40,976
    I wouldn't say there's "zero chance" Madeleine won't be featured if Craig does return. Time will tell, but I'd say the possibility of her being shoehorned into the 25th installment is equivalent to them simply dropping her and not having her featured.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    I see no reason why she would need to be in the next one and it's a bit surprising that there is a discussion about it. I get what most are saying about this era being different but if we have to have to see her in the next one just to break up with Bond (or whatever way to have them separated), it would mean we have to see that with every future Bond girl. There's just no reason for it.
    At the most she should only be mentioned and I'm still not completely okay with that. The only thing we should get, if anything, is Q saying, "It's good to see you back 007" and Bond replying, "It's good to be back." Then move on with the story.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I see no reason why she would need to be in the next one and it's a bit surprising that there is a discussion about it. I get what most are saying about this era being different but if we have to have to see her in the next one just to break up with Bond (or whatever way to have them separated), it would mean we have to see that with every future Bond girl. There's just no reason for it.
    At the most she should only be mentioned and I'm still not completely okay with that. The only thing we should get, if anything, is Q saying, "It's good to see you back 007" and Bond replying, "It's good to be back." Then move on with the story.

    This. At most, any sort of wrap-up for the Bond girls should be left to the novelizations (such as Natalya marrying a hockey player in TND - noted, not in great depth), even though we don't get those anymore, unfortunately.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited January 2017 Posts: 10,591
    Natalya married a hockey player? What an unfortunate conclusion for a character like herself.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    jake24 wrote: »
    Natalya married a hockey player? What an unfortunate conclusion for a character like herself.

    It's probably because Izabella Scorupco was married (at the time) to a hockey player.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    But nothing is left hanging the way it is, it is simply left for us to interpret for ourselves. Just because something is open ended, doesn't mean that there has to be a sequel that explains what happened. Rather than picking from one of three rather mundane destinations for the relationship to reach, I think simply leaving it unexplained is probably the smartest move they could have made. You may choose to believe that Bond is using Madeline as a means to make a clean break, but the fact remains that she is written virtually the same way as both Vesper and Tracy. Bond resigns from MI6 in order to pursue a life with Vesper, and Madeline comes from a family of criminals, rather like Tracy does. Its not hard to see the parallels. He quits, or at least its implied that he does, so he can spend his life with Madeline. Again, one can question that if one wishes, but it's plain to see that is what the film leads us to believe.

    Madeleine is not written the same way as a Vesper or Tracy, though. Their function in the story is similar, but each are used far, far differently. Calling them "virtually" the same is a bit shortsighted.

    You basically answered your own question here, though. Madeleine has been written to have a bigger impact than most Bond girls do, as Bond is leaving to be with her in a new life. If they don't address the consequence or ultimate end of their relationship in the next one, that cheapens all the development they've made with both characters, on top of just being horrid screenwriting and storytelling. Maybe this kind of thing just means more to writers who appreciate cohesive narratives, I dunno.
    I see no reason why she would need to be in the next one and it's a bit surprising that there is a discussion about it. I get what most are saying about this era being different but if we have to have to see her in the next one just to break up with Bond (or whatever way to have them separated), it would mean we have to see that with every future Bond girl. There's just no reason for it.
    At the most she should only be mentioned and I'm still not completely okay with that. The only thing we should get, if anything, is Q saying, "It's good to see you back 007" and Bond replying, "It's good to be back." Then move on with the story.

    Of course it wouldn't or shouldn't happen with every other girl. Only Madeleine, Tracy and Vesper in these cases deserve this kind of narrative consistency and follow-up because they are the only three women who Bond leaves MI6 for. Their effect on him has to be explored meatily, otherwise their impact is watered down or rendered meaningless.

    A lot can be done with Madeleine at this stage, and a lot of revealing dialogues could organically come from it, considering she's the first of 3 to survive to the end of the film. Bond could state this it wasn't the first time he'd tried to do this sort of thing, that he thought he was betrayed by the woman he loved. And the way I see it, he would soon find that he subconsciously used Madeleine as an excuse to try something new with his life, thinking he'd be happier away from MI6 and the pressures, ultimately concluding that that life chose him, and he can't do anything else. It's ingrained in him to be an agent, and the big theme of the movie would be him realizing that he's always been meant to be a protector. To be the hard man making the hard choices no one else will. He'll bow to his duty and return to MI6 with full awareness of the kind of man he is, with the film making a symbolic statement that Bond is always there, and always will be as credits roll. It'd be a bigger celebration of the character than even SF managed, if done in that way.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I'd prefer that they use Madeleine in a way to illuminate Bond's character--to say something about duty rather than love.

    I reread the "Tiffany" chapters in FRWL last night and it's clear that Fleming included her story in that novel because M wants to be sure that Bond can handle Tania's request. In other words, it's about the mission.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    echo wrote: »
    I'd prefer that they use Madeleine in a way to illuminate Bond's character--to say something about duty rather than love.

    I reread the "Tiffany" chapters in FRWL last night and it's clear that Fleming included her story in that novel because M wants to be sure that Bond can handle Tania's request. In other words, it's about the mission.

    That's exactly what I'd want to see. Bond can't be with her because being a spy is his life. Serving and protecting is the only thing he's ever really known, and it's all he can see himself doing. He was born for a storm, and the calm of retirement doesn't suit him.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited February 2017 Posts: 40,976
    Again, I simply fail to see this grand development that keeps getting mentioned. Not once in SP do I feel a realistic connection between Bond and Swann, it's merely a weaker spin on what Vesper and Bond had - and twice in just four films for one actor? That's a bit extreme.

    If he can't be with her because being a spy is his life (which is why he doesn't end up with any of the Bond girls in the first place), then there's your answer: don't bring her back for the next one. No need to bloat the running time by including breakup sequences or whatever. "Show, don't tell" me by not casting her in the next one - I KNOW Bond and Swann won't end up together, so you needn't waste time attempting to explain this in the film.

    Personally, I'm way beyond being burnt out on Bond constantly questioning his duty - he's never done it before, and now almost every other film he's not sure if being an MI6 agent is what he wants? It's ridiculous.

    I simply feel like anyway you bring her back, you're shoehorning her in and taking up proper running time that should/could be used for countless better things.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    edited February 2017 Posts: 1,812
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Again, I simply fail to see this grand development that keeps getting mentioned. Not once in SP do I feel a realistic connection between Bond and Swann, it's merely a weaker spin on what Vesper and Bond had - and twice in just four films for one actor? That's a bit extreme.

    If he can't be with her because being a spy is his life (which is why he doesn't end up with any of the Bond girls in the first place), then there's your answer: don't bring her back for the next one. No need to bloat the running time by including breakup sequences or whatever. "Show, don't tell" me by not casting her in the next one - I KNOW Bond and Swann won't end up together, so you needn't waste time attempting to explain this in the film.

    Personally, I'm way beyond being burnt out on Bond constantly questioning his duty - he's never done it before, and now almost every other film he's not sure if being an MI6 agent is what he wants? It's ridiculous.

    I simply feel like anyway you bring her back, you're shoehorning her in and taking up proper running time that should/could be used for countless better things.

    Completely agree! If Bond has another moment where he questions if he really wants to be 007, it'll be the third time in five films. He did it toward the end of CR, at the beginning of SF, and, if done again, in Bond 25. It just doesn't need to be done again. He doesn't need five outings to figure out what he really wants.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    In SF, I think Bond had far more issues with other people thinking he couldn't do his job than anything else. He wanted to be a 00, he just got sick of not being trusted to do what he was ordered. Which is understandable, considering he's one of the few dependables.
  • Posts: 1,680
    If we get another film with them trying to make a grand statement on the character with Bond being an everlasting hero, then I am willing to bet Mendes will be lured in for one more to end Craigs tenure as 007
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I miss the days when Bond was correct, working off a hunch/clue, and M would not only trust him, but have him secretly pursue the lead he knows will pay off, if the circumstances were saying otherwise. Nowadays, M doesn't seem to trust Bond until the very end of the film, if that.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    Yes in recent films Bond doesn't seem to know what he wants. He needs to know what he wants. What he really, really wants. This is the finale - Bond is the sixth Spice Girl and he shags Posh Spice till she, literally, snaps. And there endeth the DC era. Then for the series it can only really be onwards and upwards from that.
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